Mass delusion or genuine miracle?

[joe370]

youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA0DA4162066A1F39

Mass delusion on the part of 70000 people or an actual miracle predicted by the children? It was not of natural origin as it was not recorded by any astronomical observatory. Mass delusion is ruled out, in my opinion, for obvious reasons. Also, the event was witnessed up to 20 miles away by people going about their normal lives unaware of the predicted event.

The prediction alone is astonishing. The children of Fatima predicted a miracle and they delivered on it; it happened on that exact day; what are the odds of that alone…?

Here are are a couple accounts of the event:

What occurred was witnessed by over 70,000 people including representatives of the media, reporters from all the principal daily newspapers in Lisbon. Atheists as well witnessed the event.

“It was a very wet morning on 13th October, 1917. Suddenly the rain stopped. The clouds were wrenched apart and the sun appeared in all its splendour. Then it began to revolve on its axis like the most magnificent fire-wheel that could be imagined, taking all the colours of the rainbow and sending forth multi-colored flashes of light producing the most astounding effect.” Dr. Formigao, Professor at Santarem, Portugal.)

According to the newspaper Seculo, “the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic law - the sun danced.” Dr. Almeida Garrett of Coimbra stated: “The sun, whirling wildly seemed to loosen itself from the firmament and advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation was terrible.”

The incident was repeated three times lasted eight to ten minutes. It has since come to be known as the Miracle of the Sun. Can this event be doubted in view of the fact that it was well documented by reliable sources?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA0DA4162066A1F39

Mass delusion on the part of 70000 people or an actual miracle predicted by the children? It was not of natural origin as it was not recorded by any astronomical observatory.

That question gets asked here frequently. I would just say that i have not sufficient information to evaluate or sufficient means (or motivation) to investigate the event. So i would neither call it a miracle nor a mass delusion.

 

[Hokomai]

It could be both. If this was a miracle, it was one which occurred not to the sun, but to the brains of the people who thought they saw the sun dance. The sun did not dance, as it was seen not dancing elsewhere at the time. And had it danced, the effect on the solar system would have been such that none of us would be here to debate the event. So the miracle, if it is one, would be better called ‘the miracle of the brains’ in which a large number of people were caused to think they saw something happening which was not happening. It is therefore, even if it is a miracle, a delusion by any meaning of the word.

 

[Actaeon]

It could be both. If this was a miracle, it was one which occurred not to the sun, but to the brains of the people who thought they saw the sun dance. The sun did not dance, as it was seen not dancing elsewhere at the time. And had it danced, the effect on the solar system would have been such that none of us would be here to debate the event. So the miracle, if it is one, would be better called ‘the miracle of the brains’ in which a large number of people were caused to think they saw something happening which was not happening. It is therefore, even if it is a miracle, a delusion by any meaning of the word.

I tend to agree… the catastrophic consequences of ACTUAL solar motion creating very lasting physical effects, combined with the fact that the majority of mankind never saw the sun move, makes it more or less clear that, while tens of thousands SAW the sun move, that it in fact remained in place.

But I always jump to point out what you touched on in your first sentence: that just because it was a mass delusion, it was no less miraculous. Tens of thousands of people seeing the same thing, including thousands of people who were NOT present with others (to be influenced into a delusion) and totally unaware of the predicted miracle to come… well, a “delusion” like that would, in and utterly of itself, be a miracle!

 

[wanstronian]

70,000 people “witnessing” the event, vs 1.8bn other people not noticing a darn thing. Delusion, by any measure. Probably an atmospheric thing, probably inflated numbers of witnesses, probably “massaged” predicition dates, probably embellished witness statements and reportage.

Not a miracle.

 

[joe370]

That question gets asked here frequently. I would just say that i have not sufficient information to evaluate or sufficient means (or motivation) to investigate the event. So i would neither call it a miracle nor a mass delusion.

Forget for the moment as to whether it was mass delusion or a genuine miracle.

What are the odds of the children making a prediction of a miracle on a certain day and it actually happening? The predicted day was even widely publicized in all the local newspapers, which is the very reason why tens of thousands of people appeared on that day.

 

[joe370]

70,000 people “witnessing” the event, vs 1.8bn other people not noticing a darn thing. Delusion, by any measure. Probably an atmospheric thing, probably inflated numbers of witnesses, probably “massaged” predicition dates, probably embellished witness statements and reportage.

Not a miracle.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[joe370]

I tend to agree… the catastrophic consequences of ACTUAL solar motion creating very lasting physical effects, combined with the fact that the majority of mankind never saw the sun move, makes it more or less clear that, while tens of thousands SAW the sun move, that it in fact remained in place.

But I always jump to point out what you touched on in your first sentence: that just because it was a mass delusion, it was no less miraculous. Tens of thousands of people seeing the same thing, including thousands of people who were NOT present with others (to be influenced into a delusion) and totally unaware of the predicted miracle to come… well, a “delusion” like that would, in and utterly of itself, be a miracle!

My sentiments exactly.

 

[joe370]

It could be both. If this was a miracle, it was one which occurred not to the sun, but to the brains of the people who thought they saw the sun dance. The sun did not dance, as it was seen not dancing elsewhere at the time. And had it danced, the effect on the solar system would have been such that none of us would be here to debate the event. So the miracle, if it is one, would be better called ‘the miracle of the brains’ in which a large number of people were caused to think they saw something happening which was not happening. It is therefore, even if it is a miracle, a delusion by any meaning of the word.

I am confident that nothing is impossible for God. YSo you are going with mass delsuion. Got it. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Candide_West]

youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA0DA4162066A1F39

Mass delusion on the part of 70000 people or an actual miracle predicted by the children? *It was not of natural origin as it was not recorded by any astronomical *observatory. Mass delusion is ruled out, in my opinion, for obvious reasons. Also, the event was witnessed up to 20 miles away by people going about their normal lives unaware of the predicted event.

The prediction alone is astonishing. The children of Fatima predicted a miracle and they delivered on it; it happened on that exact day; what are the odds of that alone…?*

Here are are a couple accounts of the event:

What occurred was witnessed by over 70,000 people including representatives of the media, reporters from all the principal daily newspapers in Lisbon. Atheists as well witnessed the event.*

“It was a very wet morning on 13th October, 1917. Suddenly the rain stopped. The clouds were wrenched apart and the sun appeared in all its splendour. Then it began to revolve on its axis like the most magnificent fire-wheel that could be imagined, taking all the colours of the rainbow and sending forth multi-colored flashes of light producing the most astounding effect.” Dr. Formigao, Professor at Santarem, Portugal.)

According to the newspaper Seculo, “the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic law - the sun danced.” Dr. Almeida Garrett of Coimbra stated: “The sun, whirling wildly seemed to loosen itself from the firmament and advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation was terrible.”*

The incident was repeated three times lasted eight to ten minutes. It has since come to be known as the Miracle of the Sun. Can this event be doubted in view of the fact that it was well documented by reliable sources?

I don’t think there’s any question of the events which were reported having actually happened. If the sun really had been wheeling about in the sky “dancing” as the reports said then everyone on earth would have seen it (and probably subsequently died due to the effects of such vast perturbation of our solar system).*

The open question is why events which did not happen were recorded as having occurred by such a large audience.There are a number of possibilities there, personal views below:

• deliberate hoax is probably one of the more likely, while it would have been difficult to achieve everything reported it’s not unreasonable to expect some embellishment for dramatic effect (just like our modern media) so we can guess not everything reported needs to have really been witnessed.
• mass delusion - possible, if so most likely brought on by religious hysteria. Of course this could be mixed with the above, ie some deliberate hoax amplified by religious excitement and later embellished further in the retelling / reporting.
• deliberate lie - relatively unlikely that such a large audience would undertake a complete fabrication. Of course not everyone would need to be in on it, a decent proportion of the audience and the press being willing would suffice. Still I’d consider this relatively unlikely, however some fabrications may have been mixed in with the above two.*
• atmospheric effect - Some weird atmospheric effect like an aurora borealis or ball lightening occurred which people witnessed and misreported. This seems pretty unlikely, the effect seems either too localised or too distributed for different known phenomena, and the odds of it happening in the right place on the right day for the prediction are pretty slim.*
• miracle - believability of this one depends a lot on your religious views. To me it seems unlikely, even if we accept the idea for the moment that miracles happen, then this one doesn’t fit the pattern of other miracles performed by God, indeed it goes expressly against the often repeated statements about not being able to put God to the test, because if the “miracle of the sun” is true then in this case God did indeed submit to test by believers and atheists alike.*

In any case if it genuinely was a miracle (by which I mean a supernatural event caused by God) then we should be clear that the miracle was creating an illusion of the sun dancing around in the sky for a large audience, NOT actually making the sun dance around in the sky. This of course is in itself a bit dubious because it implies God tricked people, but none the less it’s not totally impossible (just extremely unlikely and as far as I can see counter to Christian beliefs about God).

 

[Al_Moritz]

We have discussed the miracle here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9541188#post9541188

Go to post #397 and continuing on the next page.

 

[Farsight001]

70,000 people “witnessing” the event, vs 1.8bn other people not noticing a darn thing. Delusion, by any measure. Probably an atmospheric thing, probably inflated numbers of witnesses, probably “massaged” predicition dates, probably embellished witness statements and reportage.

Not a miracle.

I always thought it was strange and a bit closed minded to just label it a mass delusion/hallucination. Tons of people who saw the miracle went there just to mock the believers. Regardless, calling it a delusion/hallucination on a mass scale always seemed like a cop out to me. A pocket of hot air, gas, a strange and rare thin cloud, a small pocket of dark matter passing between earth and sun are all scientifically reasonable and possible. Mass hallucination on the scale of tens of thousands of people? Not really possible.

 

[Al_Moritz]

I always thought it was strange and a bit closed minded to just label it a mass delusion/hallucination. Tons of people who saw the miracle went there just to mock the believers. Regardless, calling it a delusion/hallucination on a mass scale always seemed like a cop out to me. A pocket of hot air, gas, a strange and rare thin cloud, a small pocket of dark matter passing between earth and sun are all scientifically reasonable and possible. Mass hallucination on the scale of tens of thousands of people? Not really possible.

Precisely.

 

[petras52]

70,000 people “witnessing” the event, vs 1.8bn other people not noticing a darn thing. Delusion, by any measure. Probably an atmospheric thing, probably inflated numbers of witnesses, probably “massaged” predicition dates, probably embellished witness statements and reportage.

Not a miracle.

I’m by nature a skeptic but after detailed reading of various reports regarding this event, I can’t dismiss it simply as a random atmospheric event or mass delusion. When the children said there would be a miracle on a specific day at a specific time, I don’t think they were pre-briefed by a meteorologist. Atheists and agnostic witnesses who were there specifically to debunk the children’s claims were quoted as seeing the same thing as the believers. Furthermore, disinterested witnesses, as far as 20 mi. away, also reported the strange sightings. The argument that the event should have been witnessed over a larger area or by astronomical observatories is irrelevent. If God wanted to create an atmospheric illusion in a limited area, I would venture to say that it would have been pretty easy for him to do so…too bad CNN and Fox news weren’t around back then…

 

[wanstronian]

I am confident that nothing is impossible for God.

And if there were good evidence for the existence of such a god, my answer would not have been “delusion.”

 

[atheistgirl]

Can this event be doubted in view of the fact that it was well documented by reliable sources?

Yes it absolutely can.

Most likely some kind of natural atmospheric event.

It would have been more impressive if the girls had said what the so called miracle was going to be before hand, ie, they specifically stated the sun would dance in the sky, but they didnt do this, they just said there would be a miracle.

Thousands of people there, expecting to see something, most believers - not really unlike going to a magic show and expecting to be enthralled and see something unusual. You do, because you’re already succeptable to it.

The reports I’ve read are not in so much agreement as some would like us to believe.

Anyhow, yes, it can be doubted. The sun never danced in the sky, or came closer to the earth. Fact. Or we wouldn’t be here.

Now, if the observatories of the world had scientifically recorded that the sun did in fact move out of it’s position, come closer to earth, and dance, and yet we’re still here, now that, that, would indeed be something worthy of note.

But since the observatories of the world, including the Vatican’s own, reported nothing, I think it’s safe to say that’s exactly what happened - nothing.

Sarah x

 

[joe370]

Yes it absolutely can.

Most likely some kind of natural atmospheric event.

It would have been more impressive if the girls had said what the so called miracle was going to be before hand, ie, they specifically stated the sun would dance in the sky, but they didnt do this, they just said there would be a miracle…

Sarah x

So, just a lucky break for the children on that particular day?

 

[atheistgirl]

So, just a lucky break for the children on that particular day?

Well, from my perspective, they didn’t have a lucky break in the sense nothing actually happened

Had they actually made a prediction, such as at exactly 3.20pm the sun will dance in the sky, turn pink then yellow, a rainbow will appear over this hill and there will be thunder and lightening, a torrential downpour, then everything will be bone dry at exactly 3.21pm, that might have been something.

But the fact is they never predicted what was going to happen.

They just said something was.

I guarantee you, if I convinced 50 people I was a medium, then gathered them in a room, turned the light down, and said… can you feel that? Can you feel that presence?.. every one of them would say they felt something

Because they’re precondictioned and already expecting something to happen, just like that crowd was.

Sarah x

 

[joe370]

atheistgirl;9654799]Well, from my perspective, they didn’t have a lucky break in the sense nothing actually happened

Eyewitness testimony seems worthy of consideration? Those witnesses that were there would strongly disagree with you; your thoughts regarding the following quotes; it certainly sounds like something miraculous occurred:

“As if like a bolt from the blue, the clouds were wrenched apart, and the sun at its zenith appeared in all its splendour. It began to revolve vertiginously on its axis, like the most magnificent fire-wheel that could be imagined, taking on all the colours of the rainbow and sending forth multi-coloured flashes of light, producing the most astounding effect. This sublime and incomparable spectacle, which was repeated three distinct times, lasted for about ten minutes”
Dr. Formigao, Professor

“I feel incapable of describing what I saw, I looked fixedly at the sun, which seemed pale and did not hurt my eyes. Looking like a ball of snow, revolving on itself, it suddenly seemed to come down in a zig-zag, menacing the earth” -Joaquim Lourenço, young boy

“The sun’s disc did not remain immobile. This was not the sparkling of a heavenly body, for it spun round on itself in a mad whirl, when suddenly a clamour was heard from all the people. The sun, whirling, seemed to loosen itself from the firmament and advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was terrible.”
-Dr. Garrett, Professor

“To my surprise, I see clearly and distinctly a globe of light advancing from east to west, gliding slowly and majestically through the air…My friend, full of enthusiasm, went from group to group… asking people what they had seen. The persons asked came from the most varied social classes and all unanimously affirmed the reality of the phenomena which we ourselves had observed”
-Mgr. J. Quaresma

“I saw the sun spinning round and it seemed about to come down on us. It revolved like a bicycle wheel. Afterwards, it returned to its place” -John Carreira, young boy

“I saw the sun as if it were a ball of fire, begin to move in the clouds. It had been raining all morning and the sky was full of clouds, but the rain had stopped.” -Carlos Mendes, Lawyer

“I looked at the sun and saw it spinning like a disc, rolling on itself. I saw people changing colour. They were stained with the colours of the rainbow. The sun seemed to fall down from the sky”
-Antonio de Oliveiro, Farmer

“I was watching sheep, as was my daily task, and suddenly, there in the direction of Fátima, I saw the sun fall from the sky.” -Abano Barros, building contractor

“The sun, at one moment surrounded with scarlet flame, at another aureoled in yellow and deep purple, seemed to be in an exceeding fast and whirling movement, at times appearing to be loosened from the sky and to be approaching the earth, strongly radiating heat.”
― Dr. Domingos Pinto Coelho, Lawyer

Suddenly the rain stopped and a great splendour appeared and the children cried: ‘Look at the sun!’ I saw the sun coming down, feeling that it was falling to the ground."
-Maria Candida da Silva, ordinary woman

"I looked and saw that the people were in various colours – yellow, white, blue. At the same time, I beheld the sun spinning at great speed and very near me. I at once thought: I am going to die.”
-Joao Menitra, Reverend

"The sun started to roll from one place to another and changed to blue, yellow – all colours…And then we see the sun come right into the trees.” -Dominic Reis, ordinary man

"It came down as if to the height of the clouds and began to whirl giddily upon itself like a captive ball of fire.” -Fr. Pereira da Silva

“I saw the sun turn upon itself; it seemed to fall from the sky” -Maria dos Prazeres, widow

"The sun at its zenith whirled upon itself; it detached itself in descending towards the right, all the while whirling with sudden movements never seen before, to the right and the left; having almost arrived at the horizon line, it went back up to the zenith on the left, tracing a sort of winding ellipse as it went.”
-Baron de Alvaiazere

"At a certain moment, the sun seemed to stop and then begun to move and dance.”
-Ti Marto, ordinary man

"However, the sun stops, only to begin the strange dance again after a brief interruption, whirling upon itself, giving the impression of approaching or receding.” -Dr. Pereira Gens of Batalha

"it (the sun) spun like a firewheel,” -Maria do Carmo Marques da Cruz Menezes, ordinary woman

"What did I see at Fatima that was even stranger? The rain, at an hour announced in advance, ceased falling; the thick mass of clouds dissolved; and the sun – a dull, silver disc – came into view at its zenith, and began to dance in a violent and convulsive movement, which a great number of witnesses compared to a serpentine dance, because the colors taken on by the surface of the sun were so beautiful and gleaming.” -Avelino de Almedia, anti-clerical journalist

“I saw the rain cease, suddenly, not as rain usually ends. Then the clouds were pushed back from the sun in every direction, as if by invisible hands, and the sun appeared, in color like the blade of a knife, luminous but not dazzling. Then as I looked, the sun described a swift circle, paused; described another, paused; described yet a third. And then the clouds began to seep over it again.”
-Mabel Norton, Englishwoman

 

[atheistgirl]

Those witnesses that were there would strongly disagree with you; your thoughts regarding the following quotes; it certainly sounds like something miraculous occurred:

Well of course they would. Just like those at my medium session would swear they really felt a presence

The simple fact is not even the Vatican Obseratory noted anything unusual.

What people witnessed, if they witnessed anything, was an ordinary, natural event, perhaps some localized atmospheric event, as I linked to in a previous thread on this issue.

Nothing supernatural that’s for sure.

Sarah x