Mass delusion or genuine miracle?

[Mahsiah_Waites]

How come only 70k people seen this event and not the other people who the sun was shining down upon?

 

[RobbyS]

I don’t think there’s any question of the events which were reported having actually happened. If the sun really had been wheeling about in the sky “dancing” as the reports said then everyone on earth would have seen it (and probably subsequently died due to the effects of such vast perturbation of our solar system).*

The open question is why events which did not happen were recorded as having occurred by such a large audience.There are a number of possibilities there, personal views below:

• deliberate hoax is probably one of the more likely, while it would have been difficult to achieve everything reported it’s not unreasonable to expect some embellishment for dramatic effect (just like our modern media) so we can guess not everything reported needs to have really been witnessed.
• mass delusion - possible, if so most likely brought on by religious hysteria. Of course this could be mixed with the above, ie some deliberate hoax amplified by religious excitement and later embellished further in the retelling / reporting.
• deliberate lie - relatively unlikely that such a large audience would undertake a complete fabrication. Of course not everyone would need to be in on it, a decent proportion of the audience and the press being willing would suffice. Still I’d consider this relatively unlikely, however some fabrications may have been mixed in with the above two.*
• atmospheric effect - Some weird atmospheric effect like an aurora borealis or ball lightening occurred which people witnessed and misreported. This seems pretty unlikely, the effect seems either too localised or too distributed for different known phenomena, and the odds of it happening in the right place on the right day for the prediction are pretty slim.*
• miracle - believability of this one depends a lot on your religious views. To me it seems unlikely, even if we accept the idea for the moment that miracles happen, then this one doesn’t fit the pattern of other miracles performed by God, indeed it goes expressly against the often repeated statements about not being able to put God to the test, because if the “miracle of the sun” is true then in this case God did indeed submit to test by believers and atheists alike.*

In any case if it genuinely was a miracle (by which I mean a supernatural event caused by God) then we should be clear that the miracle was creating an illusion of the sun dancing around in the sky for a large audience, NOT actually making the sun dance around in the sky. This of course is in itself a bit dubious because it implies God tricked people, but none the less it’s not totally impossible (just extremely unlikely and as far as I can see counter to Christian beliefs about God).

The children predicted a sign, and they certainly delivered. Something happened. Can it be explained? Nope.

 

[atheistgirl]

Hard to believe that In 1925, Sister Lúcia would report that the Blessed Mother revealed the following, among the other things pertaining to war, and that the church would remain silent:

There’s an archive on the Vatican website with papers relating to WWII and I can’t find any reference to Fatima.

There’s no mention of Fatima in the Mit Brennender Sorge Encyclical.

And I can’t find any documents from the Vatican offically promoting the devotions on the First Five Saturdays.



Sarah x

 

[joe370]

There’s an archive on the Vatican website with papers relating to WWII and I can’t find any reference to Fatima.

There’s no mention of Fatima in the Mit Brennender Sorge Encyclical.

And I can’t find any documents from the Vatican offically promoting the devotions on the First Five Saturdays.



Sarah x

I did find this site when I got home:

Excerpt:

“This Pastoral Letter of ours shall be sent to all the Rev. Parish Priests that they may read and explain it to the faithful in the customary way.”

users.stargate.net/~ejt/fatapp.htm

“Jose, Bishop of Leiria”

Leiria, 13 October, 1930

Another site that provides some information:

miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/fatima/index.html

 

[joe370]

There’s an archive on the Vatican website with papers relating to WWII and I can’t find any reference to Fatima.

There’s no mention of Fatima in the Mit Brennender Sorge Encyclical.

And I can’t find any documents from the Vatican offically promoting the devotions on the First Five Saturdays.



Sarah x

It appears by 1930 many believers were privy to the messages.

Excerpt:

“From that moment of official approval, crowds swelled from around the world in pilgrimage to the Cova da Iria, calling down upon Portugal an immensity of graces that would confirm it in a new era only made possible, given its former state, by the Mother of God, Mediatrix of all Graces.”

fatima.org/essentials/facts/bishapprov.asp

 

[joe370]

And if there were good evidence for the existence of such a god, my answer would not have been “delusion.”

Sorry, but no one can provide observable proof for God’s existence. The miracle of Fatima is about as close as it gets. Hard to claim that thousands of people at the cove were all delusional. :shrug:Of course that probably is not enough for you to believe in God. Most non-believers would have to see God in order to believe in God.

 

[joe370]

How come only 70k people seen this event and not the other people who the sun was shining down upon?

Simple answer: It was a miracle. What other explanation would suffice? Certainly not a natural explanation…If it had been merely a natural weather event (which of course it was not; it defied physical laws) then everyone looking up would have witnessed it. How God did it, no one knows.

 

[joe370]

atheistgirl;9749344]I don’t see one.

Interestingly, it might be argued that if the Catholic Church was in possession of this information prior to the start of WWII and was not on every TV and every radio station in the world,

TV in the '20s and '30s? I know there were TVs in the '40s but I doubt that to many people owned one at that particular stage.

Did the CC have access to some sort of broadcasting radio station that I am unaware of?

and lecturing from the pulpits, that world war II would break out if people don’t repent, then the Church was negligent in it’s duty to prevent the start of WWII.

That would seem like the proper venue. After all, non-believers wouldn’t care…

Everywhere I look on line I see: "Some have criticized that the second prophecy was not disclosed until August 1941, after World War II had already begun.

Approbation regarding apparitions often takes considerable time for good reason. For example the apparitions of Akita took almost thirty years… Perhaps that was the cause of the delay.

Full Church Approval of any Private Revelation or Apparitions generally passes through 4 stages:

• After a thorough evaluation by a commission created by the local diocese, the bishop issues a statement of support for the event by stating that it contains nothing contrary to faith or morals, that it appears to be supernaturally inspired and that it is worthy of devotion by the faithful.
• Once approved by the bishop, a lengthy period of devotion by the faithful that results in a deepening of their faith and a return to a life of self-denial and prayer is permitted to develop. If this devotion develops and spreads, then the next stage becomes possible.
• Papal acknowledgement. The Pope states publicly that he is favorably disposed to the events and contents of the apparition.
• Liturgical recognition by placing celebration of the apparition on the Church’s official liturgical calendar.

 

[atheistgirl]

I did find this site when I got home:

Excerpt:

“This Pastoral Letter of ours shall be sent to all the Rev. Parish Priests that they may read and explain it to the faithful in the customary way.”

users.stargate.net/~ejt/fatapp.htm

“Jose, Bishop of Leiria”

Leiria, 13 October, 1930

Another site that provides some information:

miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/fatima/index.html

No mention anywhere of the First Five Saturdays as requested, no mention of an impending second world war if people don’t do specifically as requested by the Virgin Mary

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

TV in the '20s and '30s? I know there were TVs in the '40s but I doubt that to many people owned one at that particular stage.

This Doh :doh2: moment was brought to you courtesy of Atheistgirl and Revisionist History Incorporated. Please visit her website for details on how to build your very own 1920’s color digital tv, using soap and spiral pole barn nails :hypno:

Did the CC have access to some sort of broadcasting radio station that I am unaware of?

Shuuuusssshhhhh!!!

Sarah x

 

[dskysmine]

How come only 70k people seen this event and not the other people who the sun was shining down upon?

Because it was a local miracle…
This was already explained several times.
Gos bless,
D.

 

[Perplexity]

Yeah, if we grant that ~70K people saw the sun dance, we either have to say the sun actually danced, or the sun didn’t actually dance.

If the sun actually danced, and only ~70K people saw this, then God would have to deceive everyone else by allowing/causing them to falsely belief that the the sun didn’t behave abnormally.

If the sun didn’t actually dance, then God would violate no law of nature by inducing a mass hallucination (which is what it would be, at least according to the medical definition of hallucination). And if we say ~70K people hallucinated, there’s no reason to posit God, we can reasonably explain the phenomenon by calling it a hallucination.

So, supposing ~70K people really did see the sun dance, either God’s a deceiver or this wasn’t a miracle, and God is explanatorily superfluous.

But, I think the claim that ~70K people saw the sun dance is far too initially improbable to take seriously, even in light of the newspaper reports, and personal reports etc.

 

[oval]

The nature of the miracle in the sun dancing adds more believability in the story as per #208 entry in this thread. …anyway there are many curious things about the Fatima story…for example …if it was made up then we can be certain that the children did not make up all the words in the suggested visits, its far to unreasonable , the words are either from the suggested authentic source…or they were tailored by parents, priests, bishops or what have you.

if the words were made up then how come the words say to pray for the sinners in hell…? and continues…God wants to save the sinners in hell. Pardon me.? this is not Catholic Church teaching at all…no way. So then why would priests, bishops, parents or what have you make up something so inconsistent with church teaching and understanding in this area?

the amazing thing is that the product or manner in this tone reference to hell suggested by the seer’s is exactly the same tone-reference shown in the bible…a good idea that hell is the hellish life of selfishness and so on, in life. So this would be a compelling question…if made up, it is contradictory in this large way as i think the 3rd and 4th monthly visits specifically revealed these suggested relays from the heavens…an institution will always be an institution, they built the world center Fatima Church and others in that name, take all contributions,so should stand behind 100% or give all the money back.

 

[oval]

Just to be clear…above opinion only is by no means criticizing the Catholic Church, it is a poor management opinion apart from the known intended, chief.objective.

 

[oval]

this is going to be my last post until next year. … no matter what where decisions need to be made and are not fully fully absolutely obvious which means scientific style proof…there will be all kinds of arguments no matter what the decision is…so what remains is prob for the best which would be, see what you think for yourself which I think makes perfect sense.

 

[joe370]

No mention anywhere of the First Five Saturdays as requested, no mention of an impending second world war if people don’t do specifically as requested by the Virgin Mary

Sarah x

This is rather interesting: "Approvals by the Popes"

fatima.org/essentials/facts/popeapprov.asp

A few facts:

Mary said, “To save them [poor sinners who are on the road to hell], God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end; but if people do not cease offending God, a worse war will break out during the reign of Pius XI.”

"The first consecration of the world by a pope took place October 31, ** 1942* by Pope Pius XII just before major turning points in World War II, but he did it alone and not with all the Bishops in the world, as requested by Mary."
*
Not sure why this was not done sooner.

First Five Saturdays as requested:

"Pope Benedict XV, instituted the devout practice of the 8 First Saturdays of the Month in 1920, to honor the Blessed Virgin Mary Immaculate, in order to make atonement for the blasphemies whereby the name and prerogatives of the same Blessed Virgin Mary are reviled. One may begin the 8 Saturdays at any time, but one should try to maintain the devotion in successive months rather than a Saturday here and a Saturday there, if at all possible, as a pledge of fidelity."

This was a common devotion even prior to Fatima:

"The Devotion of Reparation on the First Saturdays of the Month. Finally, on June 13, 1912, Saint Pius X granted new indulgences to practices which almost exactly foreshadow the requests of Pontevedra: "To promote the piety of the Faithful towards Immaculate Mary, Mother of God, and to make reparation for the outrages done to Her holy Name and Her privileges by impious men, Saint Pius X granted, for the first Saturday of each month, a plenary indulgence, applicable to the souls in purgatory. Conditions: Confession, Communion, prayers for the intentions of the Sovereign Pontiff and pious practices in the spirit of reparation in honor of the Immaculate Virgin."3 Five years later, to the day, after this thirteenth of June, 1912, there took place at Fatima the great manifestation of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, “surrounded with thorns which seemed to pierce It”. Sister Lucy was to say later on: "We understood that it was the Immaculate Heart of Mary, outraged by the sins of humanity, which demanded reparation."4 ** On November 13, 1920, Pope Benedict XV granted new indulgences to this same practice when accomplished on the first Saturday of eight consecutive months.

fatima.org/crusader/cr48/cr48pg10.asp?printer

**

 

[joe370]

oval;9751796]The nature of the miracle in the sun dancing adds more believability in the story as per #208 entry in this thread. …anyway there are many curious things about the Fatima story…for example …if it was made up then we can be certain that the children did not make up all the words in the suggested visits, its far to unreasonable , the words are either from the suggested authentic source…or they were tailored by parents, priests, bishops or what have you.

No one believes that… The children were speaking the words of Mary (authentic source). The priests and parents had major doubts, at least until the miracle.

if the words were made up then how come the words say to pray for the sinners in hell…? and continues…God wants to save the sinners in hell. Pardon me.? this is not Catholic Church teaching at all…

Mary is not asking for us to pray for sinners in hell:

"In Her July 13, 1917 apparition to the three children, after showing them a vision of hell, Our Lady of Fatima explained: “You have seen hell, where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them (sinners on earth), God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.”

No one in hell, sadly, can be saved. She is telling us how to save poor sinners from going to hell…

 

[joe370]

atheistgirl;9751251]This Doh :doh2: moment was brought to you courtesy of Atheistgirl and Revisionist History Incorporated. Please visit her website for details on how to build your very own 1920’s color digital tv, using soap and spiral pole barn nails :hypno:

LOL…

 

[atheistgirl]

This is rather interesting:

Yes all very interesting, but how did we get from 8 first Saturdays to five first Saturdays. Mary specifically and unequivocally said **five **first Saturdays

When you consider the letters and encyclicals already linked, nothing at all mentioned of the start of world war II if people don’t repent and carry out the instructions exactly regarding the first five Saturdays as requested by Mary in a miracle with Church approval, the stuff you’ve linked to about 8 Saturdays not 5, so completely different thing, it is strange to me that that Church would say everything and anything just about except exactly what Mary said and asked for.

The fact is, this info all emerged after world war two started. Now, if the Church was sitting on information that Mary the Mother of God had given it that could have prevented the start of WWII, some serious questions need to be asked here!

One would be, why, is there not a single record, in the Vatican Archives or anywhere else, that shows the Bishops and Priests directed to tell people, everyone, via the Churches and the media, to start doing what Mary requested about the first five Saturdays and the Pope consecrate Russia exactly as requested, or world war II will happen, which Mary had promised would happen if her requests weren’t headed!!!

I can’t understand why the Church approved the Miracle, yet seems to have had such difficult in simply doing exactly what Mary requested.

Sarah x

 

[joe370]

atheistgirl;9755693]Yes all very interesting, but how did we get from 8 first Saturdays to five first Saturdays. Mary specifically and unequivocally said **five **first Saturdays

When you consider the letters and encyclicals already linked, nothing at all mentioned of the start of world war II if people don’t repent and carry out the instructions exactly regarding the first five Saturdays as requested by Mary in a miracle with Church approval, the stuff you’ve linked to about 8 Saturdays not 5, so completely different thing, it is strange to me that that Church would say everything and anything just about except exactly what Mary said and asked for.

The fact is, this info all emerged after world war two started. Now, if the Church was sitting on information that Mary the Mother of God had given it that could have prevented the start of WWII, some serious questions need to be asked here!

One would be, why, is there not a single record, in the Vatican Archives or anywhere else, that shows the Bishops and Priests directed to tell people, everyone, via the Churches and the media, to start doing what Mary requested about the first five Saturdays and the Pope consecrate Russia exactly as requested, or world war II will happen, which Mary had promised would happen if her requests weren’t headed!!!

Well, just because nothing was recorded, that we know of (with our limited knowledge which is confined to internet browsing) or explicitly published in a letter or encyclical, prior to WWII doesn’t mean it didn’t occur - right? The dictum could have went out orally in the beginning…

This was done prior to the war, be it 5 or 8; I can’t see Jesus being upset over 3 more:

“Pope Benedict XV, instituted the devout practice of the 8 First Saturdays of the Month in 1920, to honor the Blessed Virgin Mary Immaculate, in order to make atonement for the blasphemies whereby the name and prerogatives of the same Blessed Virgin Mary are reviled. One may begin the 8 Saturdays at any time, but one should try to maintain the devotion in successive months rather than a Saturday here and a Saturday there, if at all possible, as a pledge of fidelity.”

This was done but not to God’s satisfaction:

“The first consecration of the world by a pope took place October 31, 1942 by Pope Pius XII just before major turning points in World War II, but he did it alone and not with all the Bishops in the world, as requested by Mary.”

So, your point is: they waited too long to do exactly, to the letter, as Mary said? I don’t have an answer, nor can I illustrate that you are right or wrong via internet browsing.

Moreover, I doubt the church leadership knew exactly when the second war would take place. Mary never made mention of any timetable. Is that a fair assumption?

Even if the church failed to deliver in a timely manner, it doesn’t diminish, at least to me anyway, the veracity of the miraculous event that occurred in 1917, to thousands of people.