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JimR-OCDS
Guest
I read Fr Hesburg’s book, “God, Country, Notre Dame.”
It was interesting in that the seminarians of the Holy Cross during his day, literally built ND university.
Jim
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It was interesting in that the seminarians of the Holy Cross during his day, literally built ND university.
Jim
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DebChris
Guest
I have participated in Mass in different settings where the sanctuary is not defined, Respect has always been maintained by the congregation not standing “where the priest stands for the consecration” as we gathered around the banquet table. We may have formed a horseshoe, but I don’t remember a full circle ever being formed.
A favorite movie of mine is Lilies of the Field starring Sidney Portier who won the 1963 Academy Award for his performance. The altar was the tailgate of the priest’s pickup truck.
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Spirithound
Guest
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DebChris
Guest
I thought it might be a good idea to recheck the OP for what actually was stated.
Nothing is said about what is or is not on the altar proper. What it does state is that Mass was conducted in the usual manner with the exception that everybody stood rather than knelt during Eucharistic prayer. I have also attended Masses where that is the case.
We do not know how large the church is, or how far from the sanctuary that the first pew is.
A small table was used to hold the lectionary. This is not the table used for the altar.
Every participant was provided a missal, a very nice touch.
There is a Franciscan bookstore in my hometown. Every Wednesday, a noon Mass is celebrated in the back room. There are no pews, so chairs are set up for everybody. There is no room to kneel between the chair where one sits and the chair in front of him/her. So yes, everybody stands during Eucharistic prayer. A small table holds the book from which the readings are proclaimed. A larger table is used for the altar. This Mass is always packed to capacity with people taking time out our their regular business day.
Nothing is said about what is or is not on the altar proper. What it does state is that Mass was conducted in the usual manner with the exception that everybody stood rather than knelt during Eucharistic prayer. I have also attended Masses where that is the case.
We do not know how large the church is, or how far from the sanctuary that the first pew is.
A small table was used to hold the lectionary. This is not the table used for the altar.
Every participant was provided a missal, a very nice touch.
There is a Franciscan bookstore in my hometown. Every Wednesday, a noon Mass is celebrated in the back room. There are no pews, so chairs are set up for everybody. There is no room to kneel between the chair where one sits and the chair in front of him/her. So yes, everybody stands during Eucharistic prayer. A small table holds the book from which the readings are proclaimed. A larger table is used for the altar. This Mass is always packed to capacity with people taking time out our their regular business day.
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Tsuwano
Guest
You would write a letter to the Bishop? Amazing. I would focus on my prayer and feel priviledged to attend such a quiet, intimate liturgy.
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Spirithound
Guest
There’s time to do both.
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Tsuwano
Guest
Of course there is, but don’t you think the individual should speak to the priest personally before resorting to writing a letter to the Bishop? If I was the priest I would want my parishoners to approach me first with any problem they may have with me and the way I say Mass. I think the same courtesy should be given to the priest in this situation. After all, as members of the same faith community we should learn to trust and love those we worship with. “Going over the head” of the priest in this situation is not a sign of trust or love. Furthermore, if I was the Bishop, I would send a return letter telling you to talk to the pastor first and then, if the situation still warrents, both of you may come to me together to explain your differences.
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DebChris
Guest
Differences should always be dealt with at the lowest level first. Moreover, the OP was simply asking a question because this experience was different than any previously experienced. How many of us have attended a private Mass? With only 3 people in the congregation, this is about as private as you can get. A simple discussion will more likely than not answer any questions/concerns and help build rather than destroy a new relationship.
If priests are busy taking care of their parishes, imagine how much busier the bishop is. It also appears that more was read into the OP’s description than what was actually stated.
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Tsuwano
Guest
I couldn’t agree with you more. It just makes common sense to deal with the local pastor before going to the Bishop.
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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
That is incorrect. The priest does not kiss the altar because he’s “married to the Church.” If that were the case then why do married priests kiss the altar? Its a sign of reverence for the altar not a marital act…
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Spirithound
Guest
Certainly, but that option wasn’t reflected in your post.
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DebChris
Guest
Yes, it is very much a sign of reverence. The son had asked his mother because he had seen the priest kiss the altar while his non-Catholic minister does not.
The covenant between God and man is often described in marital terms. A kiss is a sign of devotion, at least in Western culture.
A non-Catholic minister may be reverent, but he does not act in personna of Christ, the Church’s bridegroom.
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paperwight66
Guest
I think you may have misunderstood NewEnglandPriest’s point, DebChris.
I don’t think he was referring to non-Catholic clergy. I think he was pointing out that there are married Catholic priests now, so they can’t be described as married to the church.
(apologies if I’ve misread you, NEP)
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DebChris
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I know that there are married Catholic priests. An Episcopal priest who converts to Catholicism may remain married if that was his state before joining the Catholic Church. This is not new. Actually I thought that NewEnglandPriest had misunderstood my post. I needed to clarify the original circumstances in which the statement had been made. The statement about clergy being married to the Church was made by a non-Catholic woman in response to her son’s question. “Why do Catholic priests kiss the altar but our minister does not?” It was a case in which the marital analogy worked well.
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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
Well, the altar is much more of a powerful force in Catholic liturgy and imagery than in Protestantism. Afterall, in Catholicism, the altar actually has a sacrfice made present upon it.
Deacons who assist at Mass also kiss the altar. Priests and Deacons who read the Gospel kiss the book of Gospels (unless a bishop is present then its brought to him).
Its an ancient sign of reverence and not really a bride/bridegroom imagery. I agree that it was a nice and easy explanation to give to a young child, but not necessarily a correct one. Also, it seems that many of these boards stretch the “priest is married to the Church” symbol/analogy well beyond reasonable limits. I.e.:
Q: Why does a priest wear black?
A: Because a priest is married ot the Church and grooms wear black on their wedding day.
Q: Why does my priest not follow the proper rubrics?
A: Because the priest is married to the Church and like many married men he stopped listening to his wife years ago.
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PLAT
Guest
Well, the altar is much more of a powerful force in Catholic liturgy and imagery than in Protestantism. Afterall, in Catholicism, the altar actually has a sacrfice made present upon it.
Deacons who assist at Mass also kiss the altar. Priests and Deacons who read the Gospel kiss the book of Gospels (unless a bishop is present then its brought to him).
Its an ancient sign of reverence and not really a bride/bridegroom imagery. I agree that it was a nice and easy explanation to give to a young child, but not necessarily a correct one. Also, it seems that many of these boards stretch the “priest is married to the Church” symbol/analogy well beyond reasonable limits. I.e.:
Q: Why does a priest wear black?
A: Because a priest is married ot the Church and grooms wear black on their wedding day.
My comment: lol there are priests that wear white cassocks you know. Today I saw the celebrant and I even thought he was not wearing any vestments because the cape was SO white… (for those whose don’t know, the priest wears the cassock, then an ale over it, then a stole, then the chasuble)
Q: Why does my priest not follow the proper rubrics?
A: Because the priest is married to the Church and like many married men he stopped listening to his wife years ago
My comment: …lolz… Can you please explain why in parishes with more than one priest, they ALL kissed the altar when celebrating masses?.
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DebChris
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There seem to be a few people on this thread who wish to move it off topic through superfluous arguments in which I refuse to engage. There are other threads which specifically address the devotional gestures that we as Catholics use. While the Catholic Church refers to herself as the Bride of Christ, it is not a description that I have heard used by members of other denominations. The Church is much more than the buildings in which we worship. We, the people of God, are the Church.
As I stated earlier, the gestures we use such as kissing the cross, are signs of devotion to the One who laid down his life for each of us. Note that I did not say that kissing the cross makes me a bride of Christ. I am a member of the Body of Christ of which Jesus Christ is the head and to whom I owe my salvation.
When I hear members of other denominations speak of devotion, they are generally speaking of a specific prayer time. It would be my hope that those who claim to be Catholic understand that prayer is more than a ritual of recited formulas or rules to be followed. Prayer is a lifting of our hearts and minds to God. Often, as Catholics we do use specific devotional gestures from bowing our head at the name of Jesus to making the Sign of the Cross that confess our identity as followers of Christ.
Jesus Christ does call us to intimacy with Himself. The OP was able to participate in Mass in a way that expresses that very intimacy to which each of us is called, clergy and laity alike.
As I stated earlier, the gestures we use such as kissing the cross, are signs of devotion to the One who laid down his life for each of us. Note that I did not say that kissing the cross makes me a bride of Christ. I am a member of the Body of Christ of which Jesus Christ is the head and to whom I owe my salvation.
When I hear members of other denominations speak of devotion, they are generally speaking of a specific prayer time. It would be my hope that those who claim to be Catholic understand that prayer is more than a ritual of recited formulas or rules to be followed. Prayer is a lifting of our hearts and minds to God. Often, as Catholics we do use specific devotional gestures from bowing our head at the name of Jesus to making the Sign of the Cross that confess our identity as followers of Christ.
Jesus Christ does call us to intimacy with Himself. The OP was able to participate in Mass in a way that expresses that very intimacy to which each of us is called, clergy and laity alike.
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Tsuwano
Guest
Yes, well, when you suggested that the indvidual write his Bishop the option of talking to his priest wasn’t reflected in your post either. I’m glad we’ve clarified our positions.
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kentuckyliz
Guest
Back to the OP–I’ve done that before but am not comfortable with it. The larger situation was for the closing Mass for a Cursillo retreat. I just politely remained in my pew. I didn’t criticize anyone or start a fuss.
Nowadays, I have arthritis and bone pain and can’t do the standing and kneeling in Mass, I just sit. I appear young enough to be able to stand and kneel but really, I can’t. I hope I’m not causing a weaker brother to stumble.
Nowadays, I have arthritis and bone pain and can’t do the standing and kneeling in Mass, I just sit. I appear young enough to be able to stand and kneel but really, I can’t. I hope I’m not causing a weaker brother to stumble.
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DebChris
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I do not think you are causing anybody to stumble. Pastoral concerns have always recognized physical limitations. Many of the lectors and EMCHs in my home parish have knee problems, myself included. The pastoral decision was made that all serving at Mass would bow profoundly upon approaching the altar rather than genuflect in order maintain uniformity. It would be very awkward if somebody stumbled and needed to be assisted to stand. This is definitely a real possibility.
I now work in the Persian Gulf and am part of the lectors ministry. During practice, I was told my bow was too deep. Again, uniformity is the issue.
I have not seen anybody here genuflect before entering a pew, as I had been taught from childhood. Even in the US, many today bow rather than genuflect, not just those such as myself whose physical limitations have in the past prohibited both kneeling (which I can do now) and genuflecting. Knee problems is why I take the elevator when available rather than stairs. Nevertheless the parishioners are very devout. Many attend daily Mass. All obligation Masses are filled to overflowing. Shoes are removed before entering the chapel holding the Blessed Sacrament. It is not unusual to see individuals not only kneeling, but also simultaneously bowing.
Courtesy is always the best response. Criticism is rarely helpful.
BTW–There is a new group forming for Cursilitas.
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