Mass obligation (w/mask)

[Convert3]

And another thread goes off the rails.

 

[Phemie]

Some dioceses are listening to actual medical and infectious disease experts, some are not. There is a growing trend in this country to dismiss genuine expertise in favor of whatever fits our personal narrative.

Actual experts are pretty ubiquitous in the recommendations about masks, particularly in enclosed spaces like churches.

I know our diocese put together a reopening plan and has submitted it to our provincial Public Health Authority for approval.

 

[Phemie]

I watched my friend celebrate Mass (online) yesterday. There was singing, neither he nor the deacons were masked until Communion time. Then the musicians, the priest, the deacons all donned masks to receive Communion. From what we could see the same applied to the congregation. They received in the hand, stepped aside, took mask off and consumed the Host. They were masked when they couldn’t maintain 6 feet of separation.

 

[EXdrinker]

The flagrant disregard for the well-being of others has been one of the most discouraging things to come out of this pandemic.

Are you talking about the bishops not standing up to the governors and providing sacraments in a safe way through the lock downs? I’m with you there.

 

[Gorgias]

Are you talking about the bishops not standing up to the governors and providing sacraments in a safe way through the lock downs?

Perhaps “not distributing” was the “safe way through the lock downs”…

 

[otjm]

Rather than argue with personal opinions, I would suggest that everyone Google Erin Bromage and his article "The Risks - Know Them - Avoid Them.

He is an epidemiologist - and I will let others argue that he does not know what he is talking about, or that he is not an “expert”.

States have been opening up; it was “presumed” or “assumed” that cases would start to rise come the Fall - September/October/November, but there are states reporting a significant rise in new cases - some of which may be due to more tests, or may be due to exposure as people come in more contact with each other. According to the most recent numbers I have come across, as of today (Monday) 2,182,950 cases identified and 118,283 dead.

And for those who go around saying this is less deadly than the flu (and there still are some bleating out that premise), the flu was estimated to kill between 20,000 and 50,000 this last flu season.

What is not being spoken of much at all are the people who survive the virus and have permanent lung damage or other organ damage. One of my son-in-laws has a first cousin who came down with it, was not to the point of being hospitalized, and after 8 weeks of off-again on-again symptoms, has identified lung damage.

 

[CilladeRoma]

In my diocese in NYS and by the Bishop.

 

[Poet]

To the people suggesting that failing to wear a mask is lack of charity: shame on you.

First–do your research. Wearing masks 1. isn’t very, very little protection against disease and 2. is causing health problems to many.

So is it ‘Christian charity’ to tell a person with asthma or allergies or panic attacks triggered by having their faces covered-- ‘do it or you’re a bad person’ or ‘suffer an asthmatic attack or miss Mass.’

Some of you better start thinking about your own ‘Christian charity.’

 

[JulianN]

Are you talking about the bishops not standing up to the governors and providing sacraments in a safe way through the lock downs? I’m with you there.

Nope. I’m talking about the people proudly proclaiming that they won’t wear a mask, even if not doing so endangers the people around them.

 

[JulianN]

Some of you better start thinking about your own ‘Christian charity.’

The “Christian Charity” statements are coming directly from bishops who ask people to wear masks out of charity for their neighbors and a desire to protect them.

Most people complaining about the masks are not claiming asthmatic issues—they just don’t like them, or have bizarrely decided it’s “political” to wear one.

 

[pnewton]

That’s ridiculous. Out of 300 people at mass yesterday maybe 15 had masks. The rest are murdering people aided by the bishop? Good grief.

It is ridiculous that you have to change what others say to fit this weird agenda. Endangering people is not the same as murdering people. Misunderstanding this distinction is why people should listen to the CDC.

To assume the motive of someone who deems a mask unnecessary as nefarious is a lack of charity.

It is more likely ignorance. This is 'Murica, after all where even the most ignorant and least educated thinks he has a an opinion about science, math, literature, psychology, or any other field that takes years of study and practical experience to understand even a little. This COVID has brought out in many this concept of some inherent understanding of epidemiology that these “some” thinks exceeds the combined wisdom of the CDC.

So, I do not think there is a lack of charity as much as an excess of pride.

 

[Poet]

The “Christian Charity” statements are coming directly from bishops who ask people to wear masks out of charity for their neighbors and a desire to protect them.

Most people complaining about the masks are not claiming asthmatic issues—they just don’t like them, or have bizarrely decided it’s “political” to wear one.

Which has nothing to do with my statement. There are a lot of people on this forum sitting in pretty heavy judgment on others and hardly being charitable in their judgment or language while they accuse others of failure of charity.

 

[pnewton]

First–do your research.

Ditto.

How to Protect Yourself and Others | CDC

Cover your mouth and nose with a cloth face cover when around others​

• You could spread COVID-19 to others even if you do not feel sick.
• Everyone should wear a cloth face cover when they have to go out in public, for example to the grocery store or to pick up other necessities.
  • Cloth face coverings should not be placed on young children under age 2, anyone who has trouble breathing, or is unconscious, incapacitated or otherwise unable to remove the mask without assistance.
• The cloth face cover is meant to protect other people in case you are infected.
• Do NOT use a facemask meant for a healthcare worker.
• Continue to keep about 6 feet between yourself and others. The cloth face cover is not a substitute for social distancing.

. Wearing masks 1. isn’t very, very little protection against disease and 2. is causing health problems to many.

There is a basic logic disconnect between not accepting the danger of person to person transmission, but a quick willingness to accept the danger of wearing a mask.

I do not have asthma, but do have other breathing issues. It has taken a while to find a good balance in a mask I can wear, that lets me breath easily, doesn’t have fibers, completely protects, and does not fog my glasses. Add to that the singing I do, it is challenging. I actually bring two masks to Mass. One for singing and the other for the rest of the time.

 

[KyPerson]

Our bishop requires them. I hate them. We have to sit far apart and that should be enough. But I wear one, even though I hate it. At least I can go to Mass now.

 

[Poet]

Please take it up with the studies saying they aren’t that effective.

One of the things everyone should remember is that all the medical experts, studies, and advice continually contradict each other and also change week to week.

This is a MAJOR reason why we should be careful in judging others as harshly as is being done these days. What we’re being told today may be the complete opposite tomorrow and those we insult may turn out to be in the right tomorrow.

 

[Bernoulli]

Basically every study has indicated that masks are effective in controlling epidemic, if the study has concentrated on the right question.

In health care, respirators are used to protect employees from (probably) infected patients. They are a safety measure, which has strict requirements for effectiveness.
The purpose of the public wearing masks is different. When (almost) everyone is wearing a mask, spread is prevented both at the source (the infected person) and the target (an uninfected person). Prevention at the source is easier than prevention at the target. Mask wearing is team effort, and effectiveness requires a high level of adherence, on the order of more than 80 %. An individual wearing a mask among non-masked people is not that effective. Furthermore, even if masks don’t prevent every case, they cut the rate of infection, and in addition to other measures even enough to prevent epidemic.

Study that have investigated the effectiveness of mask wearing on the level of populations have proved this, the introduction of masks to the public being the turning point of the epidemic. Consequently, someone who refuses to wear a mask without a grave reason is freeloading and refuses to contribute to the common welfare.

 

[otjm]

So is it ‘Christian charity’ to tell a person with asthma or allergies or panic attacks triggered by having their faces covered-- ‘do it or you’re a bad person’ or ‘suffer an asthmatic attack or miss Mass.’

I happen to have adult onset of asthma. I find your statement to be interesting. Given how the virus is spread (primarily from breath/sneezing/coughing), someone who is in the beginnings of of infection is contagious before symptoms set in. A mask can reduce the spread of what they expel, thus reducing the chance of someone else being infected.

Masks may be less effective (which is not the same as “not” effective) in reducing the chance of infection from someone else. And a mask which is a few layers of cloth is likely less effective in protecting from others’ infection than an N-95. Less effective in filtering out virus expelled by someone else is not the same as reducing the amount expelled if the wearer is infected.

“Very very little protection” - well, part of the protective gear for nurses, doctors, etc. treating people in hospitals with the virus were N-95, and there is no showing that major numbers of them coming down with the virus. The urban myth that masks have little or no protection started with WHO - who lied to us or failed to find out enough to tell the truth; so I really have no interest in the continuation of the myth.

More than half of any parish is likely to be well over the age of 50; in fact, likely over 60. This is the age group more endangered by the virus than younger people; so I would challenge your comment about “charity”.

If someone is health challenged by wearing a mask (and as I noted - I have asthma, so it is not like I have no clue - nor do I have any significant problem) they can be dispensed from the obligation to attend until such time as we might have a vaccine.

I am really fed up with people who think the have “rights” and ignore they have “responsibilities”. Charity is about responsibilities. You might want to re-think your opinion about Christian charity.

 

[Gorgias]

To the people suggesting that failing to wear a mask is lack of charity: shame on you.

I might suggest that you re-read St Paul and substitute “wear a mask” with “avoid meat sacrificed to idols”. Even if you think it’s silly, there are still those who are scandalized by a disobedient refusal to follow authority. They’re being harmed by virtue of these actions. And yes… that’s a lack of charity.

So is it ‘Christian charity’ to tell a person with asthma or allergies or panic attacks triggered by having their faces covered-- ‘do it or you’re a bad person’ or ‘suffer an asthmatic attack or miss Mass.’

Of course not. And, if you would set aside your red herring for just a moment, you’d recognize that the contexts you describe are already identified as those which are allowable.

Some of you better start thinking about your own ‘Christian charity.’

Pot, meet kettle?

 

[twf]

Yes, our archbishop actually doesn’t allow the sacred ministers to wear masks while in the Sanctuary…it isn’t in keeping with the dignity of the holy sacrifice. No one is to be huddling around the altar either…those in the Sanctuary are properly spread out. BUT the faithful are encouraged to wear masks (and we are still capped at 50 people per Mass - spread out in the pews). When distributing Holy Communion, the faithful are asked to stop at least 6 feet in front of the priest to exchange the “Body of Christ / Amen” dialogue, and then step up without either party opening their mouth to receive in the hand (though receiving on the tongue is accommodated in a separate line…just not encouraged).

 

[pnewton]

Please take it up with the studies saying they aren’t that effective.

You are a poster here, not a study.

I linked the CDC. You made the logic fallacy of appeal to common knowledge.