Mass obligation..

[onetimeposter]

God, who else do you think? Again, all Church teachings come from Him through the Church …

Ok, where’s that written in the Bible…you know, the verse where God says that it’s a mortal sin, not a venial sin…I’ll go look it up.

 

[LilyM]

Ok, where’s that written in the Bible…you know, the verse where God says that it’s a mortal sin, not a venial sin…I’ll go look it up.

Well, it’s actually based on these two -
Luke 10:16 - ‘Whoever hears you hears Me, whoever rejects you rejects Me’ and
Matt 16:19 - ‘whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatsoever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven’.

Those two verses are God telling us that when we hear the Church saying missing Mass is a mortal sin, we hear God Himself saying it, and that when they ‘bind’ us to attend Mass on Sundays it’s because Heaven itself binds it

 

[thistle]

Ok, where’s that written in the Bible…you know, the verse where God says that it’s a mortal sin, not a venial sin…I’ll go look it up.

Its the Third Commandment.

CCC 1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Even though the Catechism and teachings of the Church found therein are good enough proof for me regarding the seriousness of missing Mass without just/serious reason, I knew I didn’t have the knowledge or ability to debate this well. Thanks to LilyM, thistle and Verbum Caro for stepping up and doing a fine job and coming through with your abilities to defend the teachings of Holy Mother Church. Thank you and God bless you all!

When/if it comes time to debate this with my teens/young adult children, can you come round to help me out???!!! I’ll need all the help I can get in trying to keep them on the path to salvation when/if that happens!!!

 

[onetimeposter]

Well, it’s actually based on these two -
Luke 10:16 - ‘Whoever hears you hears Me, whoever rejects you rejects Me’ and
Matt 16:19 - ‘whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatsoever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven’.

Those two verses are God telling us that when we hear the Church saying missing Mass is a mortal sin, we hear God Himself saying it, and that when they ‘bind’ us to attend Mass on Sundays it’s because Heaven itself binds it

?? Those verses say nothing of the sorts. Seriously, they do not speak of missing mass being a mortal sin or a venial sin.

It sounds to me like your saying that the men with the political clout within the Church have a free pass to make up any rules that they want and declare that it is Gods will.

 

[onetimeposter]

Its the Third Commandment.

CCC 1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

Yes, the men in the Church decided that CCC 1858 was to be. From what Lilly is saying, every rule is God inspired.

Do you not realize the bureaucracy and politics involved with all of these decisions within the Church? I guess your saying it’s a God inspired bureaucracy and political grouping.

My point is, a bunch of Church leaders, who rose through the ranks of the bureaucracy are the ones who get to make all these decisions. Men are still making the rules, men are still doing the interpretations, so I’m really not sure why everyone knocks protestants…it’s just different men and in some cases, women who are making the decisions and interpretations.

 

[GraceDK]

The Catechism is not infallible.

My position is sufficiently explained in my post above. It is based on the teaching of the Church as to what constitutes a mortal sin. It is based on the teaching of the Church on positive precepts, which are not continuously binding (See VS on that point).

The above-stated objections of several posters ignore my theological arguments completely, and make no theological arguments of their own. Merely citing the Catechism is not a theological argument.

Regarding the example of the the nuns who missed Mass for lengthly periods of time to minister to aboriginals. The Bishop who condemned this practice and who ordered the nuns to be certain to either have a priest with them, or not to go out to the aboriginals to minister to them if they would miss Mass, changed his position and admitted that he was wrong. The nuns ignored his original order, since they were following the Gospel, which supercedes particular temporal decisions of even the local Ordinary.

So, if anyone follows whatever the Catechism says, ignoring Tradition, Scripture and other documents of the Magisterium, then such a person is not living the Catholic faith, but some new kind of religion based solely on the Catechism. Now I know from other discussions that some of the above posters do not take the Catechism to such an extreme, but there are some Catholics in the Church whose faith is based more on the Catechism than on Tradition, Scripture and other documents of the Magisterium.

But if you still think that I am mistaken, can you make a theological argument based on Tradition, Scripture and other documents of the Magisterium, without reference to the Catechism? Or if an idea is only found in the Catechism, and not elsewhere, is it a teaching of the Church?

Ron… I find this very interesting indeed… I have had quite an issue with this myself. Of course its not a great trial to go to Sunday Mass or at least it should not be… but I have the problem with it that whenever I tell someone its a death sin not to attend Catholic Mass they think I am under the old law… and somehow I understand them. This is why. -As far as I can see, the Bible says we should not let anyone at all condemn us on the basis of keeping certain days, feasts, or because of food. Paul says it clearly.
And I have wondered about this for a long time without having been given a good answer. I have precisely also wondered because it does not seem to fit with the common sense that I find in the rest of the Gospels… that its love that is the criteria of sin or not-sin…
I read today explicitly that Jesus “broke the Sabbath” when He asked the ill man to carry his own bed. The Jews who held this practice and condemned Jesus had authority to admonish him because of this… But He somehow said to them: “You have misunderstood the law.” I find that interesting…

Anyway… could you explain just how I am to find the binding answers if they are not clearly written in the catechism? I thought the catechism was authority…
??

anyway… thanks for some really good posts here that certainly do have “theological meat” on them …

 

[LilyM]

Yes, the men in the Church decided that CCC 1858 was to be. From what Lilly is saying, every rule is God inspired.

Do you not realize the bureaucracy and politics involved with all of these decisions within the Church? I guess your saying it’s a God inspired bureaucracy and political grouping.

My point is, a bunch of Church leaders, who rose through the ranks of the bureaucracy are the ones who get to make all these decisions. Men are still making the rules, men are still doing the interpretations, so I’m really not sure why everyone knocks protestants…it’s just different men and in some cases, women who are making the decisions and interpretations.

No no no. Do you think God would promise to bind our Church teachings (ALL our Church teachings) in heaven if they were merely the result of human bureacracy? If that’s the case then he’d have to promise the same to the Congress of the US or the Parliament of the UK just to be consistent.

 

[onetimeposter]

No no no. Do you think God would promise to bind our Church teachings (ALL our Church teachings) in heaven if they were merely the result of human bureacracy? If that’s the case then he’d have to promise the same to the Congress of the US or the Parliament of the UK just to be consistent.

hmmm…I don’t know…but I don’t want to hijack the thread.

 

[thistle]

Yes, the men in the Church decided that CCC 1858 was to be. From what Lilly is saying, every rule is God inspired.

Do you not realize the bureaucracy and politics involved with all of these decisions within the Church? I guess your saying it’s a God inspired bureaucracy and political grouping.

My point is, a bunch of Church leaders, who rose through the ranks of the bureaucracy are the ones who get to make all these decisions. Men are still making the rules, men are still doing the interpretations, so I’m really not sure why everyone knocks protestants…it’s just different men and in some cases, women who are making the decisions and interpretations.

Lily is correct. All the teachings are God inspired as the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and cannot err in matters of faith and morals.
Are you telling us that you do not accept all the teachings of the Church?