Mass Quality Control?

[patmetz]

I am in serious need of a solution. The priest at my local parish refuses to follow the Mass rubrics. He makes the parish say the apostles creed, not the nicene creed. We skip the confetior every mass. And most egregiously (in my opinion), he had the entire congregation stand-up during the consecration part of the mass. Sorry, I don’t know what that part is called, but I do know we are supposed to be standing. What am we supposed to do about this? I know someone has spoken with the priest before to no avail. And I am sure someone has told the bishop already. What am I supposed to do?

 

[superamazingman]

I am in serious need of a solution. The priest at my local parish refuses to follow the Mass rubrics. He makes the parish say the apostles creed, not the nicene creed. We skip the confetior every mass. And most egregiously (in my opinion), he had the entire congregation stand-up during the consecration part of the mass. Sorry, I don’t know what that part is called, but I do know we are supposed to be standing. What am we supposed to do about this? I know someone has spoken with the priest before to no avail. And I am sure someone has told the bishop already. What am I supposed to do?

1. The apostles creed is allowed.
2. The confetior can be skipped if another valid option is used.
3. This actually is wrong, and should not be happening. Even though you may think someone else may have let the bishop know, I would do it again if the priest is not listening. As a Catholic, you have a right to write the bishop at any time. In fact, you have a duty to correct abuses like this, says Redemptonis Sacramentum, nos. 12, 183, and 184, below (with my emphasis):

1. It is the right of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, especially the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes according to what is prescribed in the liturgical books and by the other laws and norms.
2. In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.
3. Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted** first to the diocesan Bishop.** This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

snipped for space
3) This actually is wrong, and should not be happening. Even though you may think someone else may have let the bishop know, I would do it again if the priest is not listening. As a Catholic, you have a right to write the bishop at any time. In fact, you have a duty to correct abuses like this, says Redemptonis Sacramentum, nos. 12, 183, and 184, below (with my emphasis):

This may or may not be an abuse. We do not have enough information because we do not know where the OP lives.

According to the GIRM, some things, including postures are left to the Conference of Bishops.

1. It is for the Conferences of Bishops to formulate the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. They are such as these:

• the gestures and bodily posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43);

• the gestures of veneration toward the altar and the Book of the Gospels (cf. no. 273);

• the texts of the chants at the Entrance, at the Presentation of the Gifts, and at Communion (cf. nos. 48, 74, 87);

• the readings from Sacred Scripture to be used in special circumstances (cf. no. 362);

• the form of the gesture of peace (cf. no. 82);

• the manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283);

• the materials for the altar and sacred furnishings, especially the sacred vessels, and also the materials, form, and color of the liturgical vestments (cf. nos. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346).

In my diocese, the norm is to kneel during the Eucharistic prayer, from the end of the Sanctus to the Great Amen. We rise for the Our Father, then we remain standing until we return to our seats after receiving Communion, where we are free to sit or kneel.
However, the Bishop has allowed Pastors to deviate from this norm for “pastoral reasons”.

 

[coopnann]

Several years ago, we attended a large church that had benches along the side, but no kneelers there. Because of that, many people were sitting during the consecration. So, our priest explained and also put up plaques on the wall so people would know, that the correct reverent posture for the consecration is to kneel or stand (but not sit).
So, from what I have experienced, standing is permissible, but I have not heard of people being encouraged to do so, and I wonder why he does.
All those things must be confusing and distracting for you and others during mass. It would throw me off too.

 

[Corki]

In my diocese, the norm is to kneel during the Eucharistic prayer, from the end of the Sanctus to the Great Amen.

This is the norm for** all of the US**. There are some diocese that stand rather than kneel after the Agnus Dei but from after the Sanctus to after the Great Amen is not optional.

For that matter, the universal law of the Church world wide is to kneel for the Consecration. The postures for the rest of the Eucharistic prayer are determined by the Bishop’s conferences.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

I know someone has spoken with the priest before to no avail. And I am sure someone has told the bishop already. What am I supposed to do?

You are supposed to pick up the phone, call the rectory and tell the secretary you would like to make an appointment to speak to the priest personally.

The definition of gossip is to speak to someone about a problem they have no power to fix. From the content of your post and your question, you seem to be speaking to anyone except the person who can resolve your problem. If you do not get satisfaction from your meeting with the priest, meaning he has not given you a canonical reason regarding your concern in the Mass, then ask him to have a meeting with you, him and the Bishop and discuss it together. The Bishop can then clarify the situation.

I think as followers of Christ, grace should be the default mode of operation.

Glad you are concerned about the intricacies of your worship.

PAX

 

[Nick1022]

This is the norm for** all of the US**. There are some diocese that stand rather than kneel after the Agnus Dei but from after the Sanctus to after the Great Amen is not optional.

For that matter, the universal law of the Church world wide is to kneel for the Consecration. The postures for the rest of the Eucharistic prayer are determined by the Bishop’s conferences.

standing after the agnus dei! This explains why I was the only one kneeling at a nuptial mass last weekend in Kentucky.

I thought it was crazy how many folks had been kneeling before the sign of peace and then “forgot” to kneel again… This is the best explanation ( I will assume the best), I thought I was going crazy.

Thanks, Nick
weightofthewood.blogspot.com/

 

[Vico]

I am in serious need of a solution. The priest at my local parish refuses to follow the Mass rubrics. He makes the parish say the apostles creed, not the nicene creed. We skip the confetior every mass. And most egregiously (in my opinion), he had the entire congregation stand-up during the consecration part of the mass. Sorry, I don’t know what that part is called, but I do know we are supposed to be standing. What am we supposed to do about this? I know someone has spoken with the priest before to no avail. And I am sure someone has told the bishop already. What am I supposed to do?

GIRM 43 has:
In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.

 

[Nick1022]

You are supposed to pick up the phone, call the rectory and tell the secretary you would like to make an appointment to speak to the priest personally.

The definition of gossip is to speak to someone about a problem they have no power to fix. From the content of your post and your question, you seem to be speaking to anyone except the person who can resolve your problem. If you do not get satisfaction from your meeting with the priest, meaning he has not given you a canonical reason regarding your concern in the Mass, then ask him to have a meeting with you, him and the Bishop and discuss it together. The Bishop can then clarify the situation.

I think as followers of Christ, grace should be the default mode of operation.

Glad you are concerned about the intricacies of your worship.

PAX

Great Point! Now that you mention it I agree. Too often we assume the worst and take someone else’s word.

Thanks, Nick
weightofthewood.blogspot.com/

 

[sistermouse]

GIRM 43 has:
In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.

We, too, stand, as we have no kneelers!! We don’t even have benches, only stackable chairs. I wish we could kneel but there isn’t enough room. I do bow after the consecration.

 

[patmetz]

First of all, holy **** that was a lot of fast responses.
Second, thanks for informing me that the nicene creed and confetior may be skipped, I feel ignorant now.
Third, I think some more detail is necessary to remedy this situation.
This particular faith community is run by Franciscans. I know they have a reputation of being left leaning. Also, I wonder if that presents some jurisdiction problems. I am not sure who is in charge of them. As far as the gossip goes, relax, I don’t gossip. Several close friends of mine have spoken to the priest personally, in scheduled meetings, to address certain teaching errors going on in RCIA classes and other “extra curricular” activities (book club, bible study, parish ministries etc.) The nun that teaches RCIA is part of LCWR and spews all kinds of nonsense. Anyways, the priest has been totally unwilling listen and has gotten quite ticked-off during these meetings.
Now for the kneeling part. The pews inside the sanctuary are all fitted with kneelers. When the Eucharistic prayer began the entire congregation knelt. The priest realized this a few seconds later and asked everyone to stand. Weird, right? He may have had permission from the Bishop or someone to do this, but I can’t think of any reason. There is plenty of room, there are kneelers, and the congregation was allowed to kneel after communion to pray. So, I am simply confused. He said that he is “worried about people falling.” Maybe we had an injury? I wasn’t sure how big of a deal it was that he was not allowing us to kneel. I like kneeling! It is the Eucharist after all. Anyways, thanks for the responses. If you knew this priest and his history you would know why I would be hesitant to even bring up something about saying mass, but maybe I should. I also didn’t know if there was a specific person in each diocese that handles these questions that I should contact instead of just hitting up the bishop (who’s number is not on my speed dial btw)

 

[Mrs_Sally]

First of all, holy **** that was a lot of fast responses.
Second, thanks for informing me that the nicene creed and confetior may be skipped, I feel ignorant now.
Third, I think some more detail is necessary to remedy this situation.
This particular faith community is run by Franciscans. I know they have a reputation of being left leaning. Also, I wonder if that presents some jurisdiction problems. I am not sure who is in charge of them. As far as the gossip goes, relax, I don’t gossip. Several close friends of mine have spoken to the priest personally, in scheduled meetings, to address certain teaching errors going on in RCIA classes and other “extra curricular” activities (book club, bible study, parish ministries etc.) **The nun that teaches RCIA is part of LCWR and spews all kinds of nonsense. **Anyways, the priest has been totally unwilling listen and has gotten quite ticked-off during these meetings.
Now for the kneeling part. The pews inside the sanctuary are all fitted with kneelers. When the Eucharistic prayer began the entire congregation knelt. The priest realized this a few seconds later and asked everyone to stand. Weird, right? He may have had permission from the Bishop or someone to do this, but I can’t think of any reason. There is plenty of room, there are kneelers, and the congregation was allowed to kneel after communion to pray. So, I am simply confused. He said that he is “worried about people falling.” Maybe we had an injury? I wasn’t sure how big of a deal it was that he was not allowing us to kneel. I like kneeling! It is the Eucharist after all. Anyways, thanks for the responses. If you knew this priest and his history you would know why I would be hesitant to even bring up something about saying mass, but maybe I should. I also didn’t know if there was a specific person in each diocese that handles these questions that I should contact instead of just hitting up the bishop (who’s number is not on my speed dial btw)

You say you don’t gossip, but those are some pretty severe allegations. And if you weren’t in the meetings, you are certainly allowing your friends to share their gossip with you!

You need to speak to the priest in question. Ask why he asks people to stand. You also need to do a bit of homework about what is allowed and what is not. Don’t assume that because something is different, it is wrong.

Historically Franciscans did not kneel at their Masses because their chapels are not designed with kneelers. If your parish is being run by Franciscans, you will see things that are traditional to their practices and not as much that is considered “mainstream” (ie how secular priests usually do things).

Take this opportunity to learn more about the many and varied traditions of our huge and wonderful catholic (universal) Church!

 

[superamazingman]

We, too, stand, as we have no kneelers!! We don’t even have benches, only stackable chairs. I wish we could kneel but there isn’t enough room. I do bow after the consecration.

I’m not saying you personally could kneel without kneelers, but the church has said that lack of kneelers is not a sufficient reason for everyone not to kneel.

*21. QUERY 3: In some places kneelers have been taken out of the churches. Thus, the people can only stand or sit and this detracts from the reverence and adoration due to the Eucharist.

REPLY: The appointments of a place of worship have some relationship to the customs of the particular locale. For example, in the East there are carpets; in the Roman basilicas, only since modern times, there are usually chairs without kneelers, so as to accommodate large crowds. There is nothing to prevent the faithful from kneeling on the floor to show their adoration, no matter how uncomfortable this may be. In cases where kneeling is not possible (see GIRM no. 21), a deep bow and a respectful bearing are signs of the reverence and adoration to be shown at the time of the consecration and communion: Not 14 (1978) 302-303, no. 4.
*

This is from Rome’s official interpretation of the GIRM. Any other interpretation is not official, and takes second place to this.

 

[patmetz]

You say you don’t gossip, but those are some pretty severe allegations. And if you weren’t in the meetings, you are certainly allowing your friends to share their gossip with you!

You need to speak to the priest in question. Ask why he asks people to stand. You also need to do a bit of homework about what is allowed and what is not. Don’t assume that because something is different, it is wrong.

Historically Franciscans did not kneel at their Masses because their chapels are not designed with kneelers. If your parish is being run by Franciscans, you will see things that are traditional to their practices and not as much that is considered “mainstream” (ie how secular priests usually do things).

Take this opportunity to learn more about the many and varied traditions of our huge and wonderful catholic (universal) Church!

Relating to gossip and Mrs. Sally: 1. this thread is about who I should talk to assuming the priest is not an option, not about whether I do or do not gossip. ASSUME the priest is not an option for the sake of discussion. 2. I didn’t feel like explaining it since it has nothing to do with the discussion, but here goes: Its not gossip since my extremely close friend and I planned the meeting and then he executed the meeting because he had the closer relationship with the priest, and then reported to me his findings-not gossip it’s called communication. 4. I don’t need, nor did I ask, for your preaching. Save it for someone else on a different forum. I know what the church teaches, but I am asking for an expert on Mass Rubrics and Church organization which you don’t seem to know much about. Focus on the issue here, not me. Assume the ground work I said is true, now what should I do…It’s how discussions work.
In other words, is there a particular person that diocese have assigned to deal with potential problems in the mass?

Thanks superamazingman, for the clarification.

 

[Cristiano]

I am in serious need of a solution. The priest at my local parish refuses to follow the Mass rubrics. He makes the parish say the apostles creed, not the nicene creed. We skip the confetior every mass. And most egregiously (in my opinion), he had the entire congregation stand-up during the consecration part of the mass. Sorry, I don’t know what that part is called, but I do know we are supposed to be standing. What am we supposed to do about this? I know someone has spoken with the priest before to no avail. And I am sure someone has told the bishop already. What am I supposed to do?

You are supposed to think before you speak, to study before you think, and to pray before you study. Once you have done that for a few months, go and talk directly to the priest.

 

[patmetz]

Assume for the sake of discussion the priest is not option. I don’t feel like launching into an explanation, I just want to know if the diocese has a process for something like this.

 

[patmetz]

You are supposed to think before you speak, to study before you think, and to pray before you study. Once you have done that for a few months, go and talk directly to the priest.

Assume for the sake of discussion the priest is not option. I don’t feel like launching into an explanation, I just want to know if the diocese has a process for something like this.

 

[Cristiano]

Assume for the sake of discussion the priest is not option. I don’t feel like launching into an explanation, I just want to know if the diocese has a process for something like this.

The Church follows the Bible and it says to go to the priest first, that it is not an optional step it is a moral obligation, it is a mandatory action, if you receive no satisfaction then you write to the Bishop. Remember that you have both obligations and rights, you must also remember that Franciscan priests are not under the discipline of the diocesan bishop, they are working guests; however, when it comes to the liturgy in your parish you must go to your diocesan bishop and if necessary he will take care of the rest.

 

[patmetz]

The Church follows the Bible and it says to go to the priest first, that it is not an optional step it is a moral obligation, it is a mandatory action, if you receive no satisfaction then you write to the Bishop.

Wait we follow the bible?? Seriously? I never thought about talking to the priest…what a revelation.
But anything more specific? Obviously, I could write the bishop but I wanted to see if dioceses have created positions specifically to address liturgical issues. Not a tough question. I would hope for the sake of efficiency that every single person in the diocese who thinks there is a problem should all go directly to their bishop.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Relating to gossip and Mrs. Sally: 1. this thread is about who I should talk to assuming the priest is not an option, not about whether I do or do not gossip. ASSUME the priest is not an option for the sake of discussion. 2. I didn’t feel like explaining it since it has nothing to do with the discussion, but here goes: Its not gossip since my extremely close friend and I planned the meeting and then he executed the meeting because he had the closer relationship with the priest, and then reported to me his findings-not gossip it’s called communication. 4. I don’t need, nor did I ask, for your preaching. Save it for someone else on a different forum. I know what the church teaches, but I am asking for an expert on Mass Rubrics and Church organization which you don’t seem to know much about. Focus on the issue here, not me. Assume the ground work I said is true, now what should I do…It’s how discussions work.
In other words, is there a particular person that diocese have assigned to deal with potential problems in the mass?

Thanks superamazingman, for the clarification.

If you will not go to the priest to get more information about why he does what he does, there is no other step.

You can pick up a book about the Mass (there are several written by our Catholic Answers experts right on this website) and learn what the allowable options are before the conversation.