Mass readings / commentary (Jesus is known in the breaking of bread / Transubstantiation... which is rejected by most Christians, Catholics included)

  • Thread starter Thread starter distracted
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

distracted

Guest
**April 7, 2010
Wednesday in the Octave of Easter **

Reading 1

Acts 3:1-10

Peter and John were going up to the temple area
for the three o’clock hour of prayer.
And a man crippled from birth was carried
and placed at the gate of the temple called “the Beautiful Gate” every day
to beg for alms from the people who entered the temple.
When he saw Peter and John about to go into the temple,
he asked for alms.
But Peter looked intently at him, as did John,
and said, “Look at us.”
He paid attention to them, expecting to receive something from them.
***Peter said, “I have neither silver nor gold,
but what I do have I give you:
in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazorean, rise and walk.”***Then Peter took him by the right hand and raised him up,
and immediately his feet and ankles grew strong.
He leaped up, stood, and walked around,
and went into the temple with them,
walking and jumping and praising God.
When all the people saw him walking and praising God,
they recognized him as the one
who used to sit begging at the Beautiful Gate of the temple,
and they were filled with amazement and astonishment
at what had happened to him.

Ps 105:1-2, 3-4, 6-7, 8-

(3b) Rejoice, O hearts that seek the Lord.
or:
R. Alleluia.
Give thanks to the LORD, invoke his name;
make known among the nations his deeds.
Sing to him, sing his praise,
proclaim all his wondrous deeds.
R. Rejoice, O hearts that seek the Lord.
or:
R. Alleluia.
Glory in his holy name;
rejoice, O hearts that seek the LORD!
Look to the LORD in his strength;
seek to serve him constantly.
R. Rejoice, O hearts that seek the Lord.
or:
R. Alleluia.
You descendants of Abraham, his servants,
sons of Jacob, his chosen ones!
He, the LORD, is our God;
throughout the earth his judgments prevail.
R. Rejoice, O hearts that seek the Lord.
or:
R. Alleluia.
He remembers forever his covenant
which he made binding for a thousand generations
Which he entered into with Abraham
and by his oath to Isaac.
R. Rejoice, O hearts that seek the Lord.
or:
R. Alleluia.

**
Lk 24:13-35**

lThat very day, the first day of the week,
two of Jesus’ disciples were going
to a village seven miles from Jerusalem called Emmaus,
and they were conversing about all the things that had occurred.
And it happened that while they were conversing and debating,
Jesus himself drew near and walked with them,
but their eyes were prevented from recognizing him.
He asked them,
“What are you discussing as you walk along?”
They stopped, looking downcast.
One of them, named Cleopas, said to him in reply,
“Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem
who does not know of the things
that have taken place there in these days?”
And he replied to them, “What sort of things?”
They said to him,
“The things that happened to Jesus the Nazarene,
who was a prophet mighty in deed and word
before God and all the people,

how our chief priests and rulers both handed him over
to a sentence of death and crucified him.
But we were hoping that he would be the one to redeem Israel;
and besides all this,
it is now the third day since this took place.
Some women from our group, however, have astounded us:
they were at the tomb early in the morning
and did not find his Body;
they came back and reported
that they had indeed seen a vision of angels
who announced that he was alive.
Then some of those with us went to the tomb
and found things just as the women had described,
but him they did not see.”
And he said to them, “Oh, how foolish you are!
How slow of heart to believe all that the prophets spoke!
Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things
and enter into his glory?”
Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets,
he interpreted to them what referred to him
in all the Scriptures.
As they approached the village to which they were going,
he gave the impression that he was going on farther.
But they urged him, “Stay with us,
for it is nearly evening and the day is almost over.”
So he went in to stay with them.
And it happened that, while he was with them at table,
he took bread, said the blessing,
broke it, and gave it to them.
With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him,

but he vanished from their sight.
Then they said to each other,
“Were not our hearts burning within us
while he spoke to us on the way and opened the Scriptures to us?”
So they set out at once and returned to Jerusalem
where they found gathered together
the Eleven and those with them who were saying,
“The Lord has truly been raised and has appeared to Simon!”
Then the two recounted what had taken place on the way
and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread.

.

***Transubstantiation… it seems the Scirptures have a great focus on it… and not surprisingly…

yet many Christians do not believe… even, apparently, most Catholics… :(***
 
If we’re going to make a case for the Real Presence from scriptures, I would think we would cite Saint John:
I am that bread of life.
Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Zach
 
If we’re going to make a case for the Real Presence from scriptures, I would think we would cite Saint John:

Zach
thanks… that was a wonderful reminder…

why aren’t you Catholic then? are you planning on becoming C?
 
thanks… that was a wonderful reminder…

why aren’t you Catholic then? are you planning on becoming C?
I am perfectly comfortable believing in the Real Presence and being an Episcopalian. I would venture that most Episcopalians believe in it, actually.

Zach
 
I am perfectly comfortable believing in the Real Presence and being an Episcopalian. I would venture that most Episcopalians believe in it, actually.

Zach
they only have the RP if the episcopal minister was once ordained a Catholic priest…
 
Food for thought;

Traditional Feast of unleavened bread;

Eat unleavened bread for 7 days. On the seventh day, 3 sheets of bread (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in the rectangle shape (unleavened breads) are made and stacked. The middle sheet ( the Son) of unleavened bread is taken broken, (Eucharist at the last supper passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ) part is eaten and part is wrapped in Linen Cloth and then hidden (the crucifixion and burial of Jesus body). On the first day after the 7th day (Sunday the first creation day from Genesis now the new creation day in the resurrection). All are set out to seek out the hidden manna, and the one who finds the hidden manna on the first day of the week will inherit eternal life.

Revelations 2:17 “Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the victor I shall give some of the hidden manna;
 
QUOTE=Zach82;6500622]I am perfectly comfortable believing in the Real Presence and being an Episcopalian. I would venture that most Episcopalians believe in it, actually.
How does an Episcopalian believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in his Eucharist? Can you explain how this is done, and when Jesus becomes present body, blood, soul and divinity to your community? Can you give a source from your doctrine that explains this true presence of Jesus Christ, from when you began to believe in the real presence of Jesus Christ body, blood, soul and divinity? Or does Jesus reveal himself to Episcopalians in a different way other than his body, blood, soul and divinity?
 
I remember in another thread somebody talking about a group owning Jesus because of personal salvation in the sinner’s prayer. This idea that no group outside of the RC can claim Real Presence in their Eucharist smacks of the same.
 
This isn’t hard theology folks.

Many Anglicans believe that they have legitimate Holy Orders and unbroken apostolic succession. If they were right about this, then a valid Anglican liturgy would, in fact, give them the Eucharist.

You don’t stop being a bishop if you schism off from the pope and the rest of the magisterium. Catholics believe this, which is why why don’t question the reality of the Eucharist in Eastern Orthodox liturgies.

With Anglicans though, there was a century during which the vision of Holy Orders was essentially denigrated and the Apostolic Succession lost due to invalid ordinations of bishops. Once A.S. is lost, fixing the liturgy and intent doesn’t fix the problem.

Anglicans, of course, fiercely deny that their church has lost valid apostolic succession. Plenty of posts around here to summarize why. Search on user GKC for some really good ones from the Anglican perspective.

It does come off as smug until / unless you comprehend the theology behind the conclusion. Jesus didn’t establish the Eucharist as something that any two believers can gather together and consecrate. He established a sacramental system and Holy Orders as a means of preserving the unity of the Church and giving recognizable structure to it. We can’t just abandon that because we worry that it makes us look exclusive or smug.
 
they only have the RP if the episcopal minister was once ordained a Catholic priest…
Believe it or not, the Anglican Church does not really care to seek Roman validation of our orders and sacraments. Just as much, I might add, as you don’t seek validation of your own from us.

Zach
 
Food for thought;

Traditional Feast of unleavened bread;

Eat unleavened bread for 7 days. On the seventh day, 3 sheets of bread (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in the rectangle shape (unleavened breads) are made and stacked. The middle sheet ( the Son) of unleavened bread is taken broken, (Eucharist at the last supper passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ) part is eaten and part is wrapped in Linen Cloth and then hidden (the crucifixion and burial of Jesus body). On the first day after the 7th day (Sunday the first creation day from Genesis now the new creation day in the resurrection). All are set out to seek out the hidden manna, and the one who finds the hidden manna on the first day of the week will inherit eternal life.

Revelations 2:17 “Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the victor I shall give some of the hidden manna;
Could you tell me where you found this out? I’m having trouble with Last Supper on Thursday being Seder meal and Friday being the actual Passover, specifically the sheep being slaughtered at 3 PM on Friday for the Passover meal.
 
Believe it or not, the Anglican Church does not really care to seek Roman validation of our orders and sacraments. Just as much, I might add, as you don’t seek validation of your own from us.

Zach
Believe it or not, a LOT of Anglican priests actually DO seek out ordination at the hands of a bishop thought to have the “Dutch Touch.” (Again, do a search.) The motivation might be simply ecumenical, but I’ve always found that a bit dubious as an explanation. They don’t seem in a big hurry to seek out bishops with, say, a Methodist in his successional line…
 
Believe it or not, a LOT of Anglican priests actually DO seek out ordination at the hands of a bishop thought to have the “Dutch Touch.” (Again, do a search.) The motivation might be simply ecumenical, but I’ve always found that a bit dubious as an explanation. They don’t seem in a big hurry to seek out bishops with, say, a Methodist in his successional line…
Oh, I know about them. I don’t know if it was “a LOT” or even a lot. More like “A few.” Most of these folks are English Anglicans, and they are betting the pope will let us Anglicans back in if we get ordained enough or whatever. We call them “Anglo-papalists,” and most of use can’t figure out what they are on about.

Do I really have to say “The vast majority of…” whenever I make generalizations about my own denomination?

Zach
 
Could you tell me where you found this out? I’m having trouble with Last Supper on Thursday being Seder meal and Friday being the actual Passover, specifically the sheep being slaughtered at 3 PM on Friday for the Passover meal.
I included the Christian aspects to the summary of the Jewish Traditional feast of unleavend bread. It was a reflection upon my Rosary of the Luminous mysteries. This particular Jewish Tradition was celebrated by the Father of the house and his children, this was not an official Jewish feast of unleavened bread. From the top of my head, a Jewish author compares the “Jews in the time of Jesus” written by a Jewish author Stephen M. Wylen (Pualist Press). On pg. 102 you will find a short summary of the Christian symbolism in the Seder if that helps you.

I am not sure what your question is specifically here? One should recall that these Jewish feast lasted weeks at a time. This Jewish household tradition plays with the time frame during the celebration as I stated, but not neccessarily the official time frame of the actual unleavened feast.

Peace be with you
 
I am not sure what your question is specifically here? One should recall that these Jewish feast lasted weeks at a time. This Jewish household tradition plays with the time frame during the celebration as I stated, but not neccessarily the official time frame of the actual unleavened feast.

Peace be with you
If Jesus was celebrating the Passover meal with his disciples on Thursday, why were the Jews preparing for the Passover on Friday, the Day of Preparation?
 
If Jesus was celebrating the Passover meal with his disciples on Thursday, why were the Jews preparing for the Passover on Friday, the Day of Preparation?
What you have introduced here is the description of the Seder recorded in the synoptic Gospels which the synoptic Gospel version lends importance to the Matzoh (somtimes spelled Mazzoth) and the wine. Whereby the Gospel of John (the contemplative) gives creedence to the Paschal lamb in his Gospel. These do not conflict, combined they reveal much more of the Passover fulfillment.

After the Israelites took to flight in the desert, they ate bitter herbs and unleavened bread recallling the past events from their exodus, also sacrificing and consuming a lamb when death passovered them. During the desert flight God gave them manna to eat which rained down from heaven. What is complicated is the celebrating of the Matzoh with the Passover meal. Scripture reveals the two feasts being combined at times and then celebrated independently.

What is fascinating is that the Roman Liturgy remains steadfast to this ancient biblical Jewish tradition which combines both Rites, the unleavened bread which becomes the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

The time frame indicates the Last supper is when they took flight into the desert, celebrating with unleavened cakes, bitter herbs with the “Todah” another clelebrated meal with a vow. Next day they begin to sacrifice the lambs and spill their blood this is Johns symbolism to the sacred meal when they began to crucify Jesus at the same hour. Upon the Sabbath when Jesus rested his humanity on this seventh day for all of our humanity. Raises it on Sunday when the saved from death eternal can consume the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the World. “Zeal for your house consumes me”.

We must recall also that in the Seder meal = Passover Haggadah included the four seperate cups of wine. 1st cup was a Solemn blessing called the Kiddush, pronounced over the first cup of wine, followed by a dish of bitter herbs. Reminder of the bitterness of Egyptian bondage
2nd cup the Passover narrative was recited from Exodus 12. Then the “little Hallel” (Psalm 113) was sung, followed immediately by drinking the second cup of wine.
(Halleluiah = Praise Yaheweh translated Alleluiah )
3rd cup is the main meal served consisting of lamb and unleavened bread, which preceded the drinking of the 3rd cup of wine, known as “THE CUP OF BLESSING”
4th cup is the final climax of the Passover, came with the singing of the “GREAT HALLEL” (Psalms 114-118) and the drinking of the 4th cup of wine called the “cup of consummation” or fulfillment. See Mark 14:22-26, states they sang a hymn .Note this celebration Jesus includes the Todah sacrifice, a promise kept to God until it is fulfilled and come to completion (it is finished).

In essence as the first century Jews celebrated these feasts in remembrance of them, Jesus brought them in the present reality and fulfilled them all, when he does not drink of the fourth cup , Jesus drinks the fourth cup in the “it is finished”.

Catholics obey Jesus command to “Do this in rememberance of me” in her Mass liturgy (public worship) when all this is made present in Jesus true presence from his body, blood soul and divinity made present in his Eucharist according to his commandment and by his divine Word which makes it a reality.

In summary when we read the Passover account from the Gospels, we are reading much more (Seder meal, Todah meal etc.) than just the prescriptions of the Passover, Jesus brings all of these biblical “Truths” to their eternal fulfillment in himself.

I don’t know if this is the subject matter you are seeking?
 
40.png
Gabriel_of_12:
Thank you. Knowing all this, the Last Supper and the 4 cups, etc. That was the Seder meal, on Thursday. right? Jesus died on the cross at 3 PM on Friday. According to Jeff Cavins, and I think Scott Hahn, the lambs for the Passover were slaughtered at 3PM on FRIDAY, at the same hour that Jesus, the Paschal Lamb died. I’m having difficulty reconciling two Passovers.

Unless Thursday-Friday were one long Passover until Jesus said, “It is finished.” Thus signifying the end of Passover. If this is so, what was the High Holy day being celebrated on Saturday?
 
I remember in another thread somebody talking about a group owning Jesus because of personal salvation in the sinner’s prayer. This idea that no group outside of the RC can claim Real Presence in their Eucharist smacks of the same.
Are you suggesting that the Real Presence (as Catholics believe…the consecrated Eucharist becomes the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ) exists in other denominational religions? If so, which ones?? Another question is by what Authority is the consecration taking place. Most non-catholic communion services offer grape juice and crackers and consider them as “symbols” of Jesus’ body and blood…the remainder of which is thrown away. Ever wonder why these churches don’t have Tabernacles or a Sanctuary Light?

I hope that your RCIA instruction will address these issues. Something that helped me a lot, during my Cafeteria Catholic days, was the reading of Rome Sweet Home by Scott Hahn. Also searching the Church Fathers for their understanding of the Real Presence was also a big help.

God’s Peace
 
I remember in another thread somebody talking about a group owning Jesus because of personal salvation in the sinner’s prayer. This idea that no group outside of the RC can claim Real Presence in their Eucharist smacks of the same.
oh well… sometimes the truth “smacks” of a lot of things that it really shouldn’t smack of… meaning some pepole just have strange colored glasses on wen they look at something… means nothing… except that pepole see things subjectively most of the time…

i have spent long hours of silence in the Real Presence… i KNOW He is There and nowhere else (tangibly)…

why do i get this feeling that u cannot say the same??

when i am There, i am a different person… see things differently… etc… can’t put words on such a great Experience…
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top