Mass restricted to one hour

[Cat]

Really? I find your response to be very enlightening. Apparently your participation in Mass as the organist is all about YOU. Most Catholics attend Mass because it is all about God. As we serve God, we decrease in importance as He increases. Our efforts to serve in Mass should always be directed toward helping others worship…and we should serve with humility.

No No, NO! You have been on CAF for less than 200 posts, and you don’t know me and obviously haven’t read many of my 12,000 posts that I have done over the last ten years.

The Mass is NOT about me. I am a servant, and playing for Mass is the work of a servant. I play to glorify Christ and to help the people worship Him. I have stated hundreds of times here on CAF that we should respect and obey our priests and never undermine them, even if they institute policies that are not our personal preference.

I pay $250 a month for my organ lessons which is a lot of money that could be going into my retirement account. (I’m 57.) I struggle to find time in my busy life to practice. Because of various surgeries, my feet don’t work well, and the pedals are very difficult for me. I give up weekend time to play, and days-off time to practice. I play even though I am not very good yet, because I know that it’s the only way for me to learn and improve.

I do all this because I want to serve God. I’m no diva.

But if all I am is a “bonus” to the Mass, and if I am actually annoying people who are trying to pray, then I am wasting my money and time, and that would be wrong of me when both money and time are so precious.

marbleartist, I am asking you to please apologize for saying this terrible thing about me. You couldn’t be more wrong.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

With respect to # 2, the musicians have to *obey *the decisions of the pastor. However, if they take seriously their work in the parish, they also have the right to make their opinions, respectfully, known to the pastor. So, I naturally do not agree with your claim that it “is not the role of the musicians to feel one way or the other about what they are being asked to do”.

You know, as far as I am aware, the Church provides the priest to be the presider and decider of Mass. Period. Can and do people have (name removed by moderator)ut and opinions. Sure. But (and I know that this is a bad idea to say on this thread) musicians sure seem to have a problem being directed. Perhaps it is their artistic natures. I suppose it is a good thing I am a husband and father and not a priest because if a music person approached me differing from the way I wished Mass to be presented, I would find another.

 

[SMHW]

The entrance chant reflects the liturgical spirit of the day or season. Another psalm or hymn of similar spirit may be used in its place.

Yes. But “similar spirit” is a pretty broad statement. One could argue that all the antiphons of the day are of similar spirit.

But I do understand your point.

 

[marbleartist]

I am a servant of the Lord. I enjoy playing at Mass because it helps lead the people in worship–at least I thought it did.

The impression that I am getting from this thread is that it only leads the people in worship if it is short, and if it isn’t very loud.

So why bother with Bach? Apparently he’s just annoying to all the people who need silence to pray. Apparently all those people in the past who had the privilege of hearing Vierne, Franck, Couperin, etc. play before and during Mass were either deaf or weren’t really praying, but just listening to the “concert” performed by the musicians with big big egos.

Before I write anything else, let me just say that Yes, I absolutely agree that we need to respect and cheerfully obey our priests. In the ten years that I have been part of Catholic Answers Forums, I have stated over and over again that our personal preference doesn’t matter. What’s important is that we recognize, respect, and obey, with cheerfulness and docility, the priests who have been appointed for us.

Let me also say that if I were in a parish in which the music was relegated to a mere irritating necessity in the Mass, I would leave that parish. I just finished reading The Perfect Joy of St. Francis, and it is obvious that this great saint sang his way through most of his life. Mass is not all about music, but good music can certainly help people recognize that the Mass is not of this earth.

No one is saying that music is an irritating necessity. As an accomplished pianist of over 50 years (yes, I started at a young age and yes, I am old), I certainly appreciate the classic composers! I agree that music can, at times, transport people and bring them closer to God. But this isn’t what is being discussed. 6 verses of a hymn while Father is waiting at the altar will distract people, not focus them. A beautifully performed Bach can indeed be irritating to those preparing themselves to receive Jesus. There is a place for music and a place for silence in the Catholic Church. They are BOTH important in worship. In former parishes where the organist was extremely talented, we would occasionally have an afternoon concert- not only to showcase his talent and gift from God, but also to appreciate the music of the great composers. All who attended were enriched. However, when we serve in Mass, we are to humbly obey the priest, and prayerfully hope that our service helps focus others on God. If we strive to impress others or bring attention to ourselves, we are dishonoring the gift that God provided to us with which to serve Him.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No No, NO! You have been on CAF for less than 200 posts, and you don’t know me and obviously haven’t read many of my 12,000 posts that I have done over the last ten years.

The Mass is NOT about me. I am a servant, and playing for Mass is the work of a servant. I play to glorify Christ and to help the people worship Him. I have stated hundreds of times here on CAF that we should respect and obey our priests and never undermine them, even if they institute policies that are not our personal preference.

I pay $250 a month for my organ lessons which is a lot of money that could be going into my retirement account. (I’m 57.) I struggle to find time in my busy life to practice. Because of various surgeries, my feet don’t work well, and the pedals are very difficult for me. I give up weekend time to play, and days-off time to practice. I play even though I am not very good yet, because I know that it’s the only way for me to learn and improve.

I do all this because I want to serve God. I’m no diva.

But if all I am is a “bonus” to the Mass, and if I am actually annoying people who are trying to pray, then I am wasting my money and time, and that would be wrong of me when both money and time are so precious.

marbleartist, I am asking you to please apologize for saying this terrible thing about me. You couldn’t be more wrong.

I must agree with Cat here. I respect Cat as a poster and as a Catholic. I disagree with Cat on some music issues and some teen issues but no one should ever question Cat’s motives or sincerity and even humbleness. That being said Cat, your skin should be a little tougher by now. And perhaps have some compassion that not everyone has had the experience you have had. Like I said before, I have some compassion for those who have been through some bad music experiences at parishes. It is not to be taken lightly, it can actually destroy someones theology and faith putting their soul into jeopardy. And it can do that for both those on the traditional side and the progressive side.

 

[marbleartist]

No No, NO! You have been on CAF for less than 200 posts, and you don’t know me and obviously haven’t read many of my 12,000 posts that I have done over the last ten years.

The Mass is NOT about me. I am a servant, and playing for Mass is the work of a servant. I play to glorify Christ and to help the people worship Him. I have stated hundreds of times here on CAF that we should respect and obey our priests and never undermine them, even if they institute policies that are not our personal preference.

I pay $250 a month for my organ lessons which is a lot of money that could be going into my retirement account. (I’m 57.) I struggle to find time in my busy life to practice. Because of various surgeries, my feet don’t work well, and the pedals are very difficult for me. I give up weekend time to play, and days-off time to practice. I play even though I am not very good yet, because I know that it’s the only way for me to learn and improve.

I do all this because I want to serve God. I’m no diva.

But if all I am is a “bonus” to the Mass, and if I am actually annoying people who are trying to pray, then I am wasting my money and time, and that would be wrong of me when both money and time are so precious.

marbleartist, I am asking you to please apologize for saying this terrible thing about me. You couldn’t be more wrong.

I have been on CAF since 2004!! I just rarely have anything to say. . That is easily discovered by looking at the heading by my name. I will certainly apologize to you for any misunderstanding. And I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[brigid12]

The reason for restricting Mass to one hour may not be one of people complaining because they are misprioritizing. They may have a child/elder that they need to get back to. They may have medicine and a meal they need to take. The bishop may have asked them to. As was mentioned, the parking situation between Masses may be getting to much for the parking lot. The church’s insurance may be only affordable if one hour is taken for a Mass, etc. There are many reasons the priest may have said this.

 

[Lapey]

I am a musician at our church. I have recently been approached by the music co-ordinator to keep the music brief. For example, if I am still playing the Offertory hymn and the priest is ready to proceed with the blessing of the gifts I need to stop asap as Father should not be kept waiting.

Similarly once Father has left the church the recessional hymn should finish as soon as possible as well. If there are any verses left to be sung then tough…

Why? Because certain members in the congregation have been complaining that Mass is too long. Our parish priest thus gets a lot of flack regarding this and is now very mindful to keep Mass to one hour. 5 min extra is a sacrilege!

I will comply as I am under authority but I do not agree with this at all. We are not talking about a 2-hour Mass. Why should those who have other priorities be given precedence over those who want to come and spend time with our Lord on a Sunday morning, whether it be 60min or 70min or whatever?

For my family Sunday morning is the highlight of our week and Mass take priority above all else. I could spend 2 hours in church if need be.

I do not want to take this up with our priest as I really feel for the man. He is a black priest from Nigeria in a predominantly white parish and he is very careful to do the right thing.

Anyone else been in similar situations?

I’ll keep my response simple and straight forward; a good cantor/choir will practice this and be sure the offertory hymn is complete by the time the priest celebrant has washed his hands and is ready to recite the prayer over the gifts. He should not be made to wait whether he sings or not. Or, they can be complete by the time the priest gets to the altar so he can audibly recite the prayers during the preparation of the gifts at the altar. Neither option includes finishing the song because it has more verses. This has nothing at all to do with time.

My second point is, the recessional hymn is not required, nor is it part of the Mass. The Mass is over at the final sending, not after the recessional hymn.

I would suggest the musicians/cantors for Mass do exactly what the pastor/celebrant asks them to do because he is the leader of the heavenly worship.

 

[phil19034]

I am a servant of the Lord. I enjoy playing at Mass because it helps lead the people in worship–at least I thought it did.

The impression that I am getting from this thread is that it only leads the people in worship if it is short, and if it isn’t very loud.

So why bother with Bach? Apparently he’s just annoying to all the people who need silence to pray. Apparently all those people in the past who had the privilege of hearing Vierne, Franck, Couperin, etc. play before and during Mass were either deaf or weren’t really praying, but just listening to the “concert” performed by the musicians with big big egos.

Before I write anything else, let me just say that Yes, I absolutely agree that we need to respect and cheerfully obey our priests. In the ten years that I have been part of Catholic Answers Forums, I have stated over and over again that our personal preference doesn’t matter. What’s important is that we recognize, respect, and obey, with cheerfulness and docility, the priests who have been appointed for us.

Let me also say that if I were in a parish in which the music was relegated to a mere irritating necessity in the Mass, I would leave that parish. I just finished reading The Perfect Joy of St. Francis, and it is obvious that this great saint sang his way through most of his life. Mass is not all about music, but good music can certainly help people recognize that the Mass is not of this earth.

In regards to the music, don’t think this is a matter of “keeping it short” as much as it is not singing/chanting the antiphons.

Let’s remember that before Vatican II, no one in the pews sang during mass. Only before and after. Also, before Vatican II, everything in the Liturgy was a prayer or came from the Bible (except for the Sermon).

When I attend Mass at the Cathedral, it’s usually 1.5 hours during an ordinary mass and approx 2 hours during Solum Mass (in the OF). There are no hymns or songs during mass, but plenty of music. The Antiphons are sometimes chanted and sometimes sung. Sometimes they sing a few extra Psalms, singing them once in English and then Chanting them in Latin (or the Latin comes first… They mix it up).

But we never sing a hymn from the hymnal during Mass. Everyone loves it.

I think the problem is with myself and others I have spoken with is that they want to sing/chant prayers and/or Psalms during Mass, not songs/hymns.

For example: I would rather sing the prayer Come O Holy Spirit or the post communion prayer Soul of Christ; plus antiphons & psalms during & after communion. English or Latin, doesn’t matter because they are prayers. Any pre and post communion prayers would be fine to sing.

I honestly feel that if a lot of Catholics in the pews feel the same way. Especially the more conservative ones.

My Archbishop said once that the two top complaints he gets are all about bad music and bad homilies.

My parish has one Sunday Mass that is music less because the musicians refuse to do Latin or traditional music. So the compromise is one mass with no music at all. It’s a real shame that we can’t have one mass with traditional music.

God Bless

 

[SMHW]

Let’s remember that before Vatican II, no one in the pews sang during mass. Only before and after.

?!?!?!?!?!??!

 

[Cat]

I must agree with Cat here. I respect Cat as a poster and as a Catholic. I disagree with Cat on some music issues and some teen issues but no one should ever question Cat’s motives or sincerity and even humbleness. That being said Cat, your skin should be a little tougher by now. And perhaps have some compassion that not everyone has had the experience you have had. Like I said before, I have some compassion for those who have been through some bad music experiences at parishes. It is not to be taken lightly, it can actually destroy someones theology and faith putting their soul into jeopardy. And it can do that for both those on the traditional side and the progressive side.

I wish my skin was thicker. I am able to play the organ and make dreadful mistakes and not let it bother me, so that’s good.

I have compassion for those who have been through bad music experiences because I lived it all in the Evangelical Protestant churches. When Christian rock first started developing, I can remember when “long-hairs” were turned away from churches, and guitars were considered “phallic symbols”, which made them inappropriate for worship services.

Who knows how many musicians were lost forever to Christianity because of this foul treatment? Who knows how many musicians turned to writing and performing music that is truly anti-Christ because they were hurt by the “Christians” who treated them like dung?

But the Christian rockers gradually gained acceptance. People like Ralph Carmichael wrote several really good songs/hymns (they are still sung today–so much for the “theory” that Christian rock songs are here today gone tomorrow). Larry Norman toured the country giving small concerts that attracted roomfuls of teenagers and their youth pastors; our church youth pastor took a group of us to see him, and I found it so moving that I continued to follow Larry Norman right up until his death at too young an age. My husband and I actually drove our daughters several hundred miles to see him, and although he was older and grayer, he was still a powerful singer–our girls really liked him.

Things were peaceful for a time. But gradually the “rockers” started pushing out the older people who preferred the old-time Gospel hymns (Crosby, Bliss, Sankey, etc.) and the older-still traditional hymns (Wesleys, etc.) .

My mother remained committed to her Baptist church until she died. But many of her dear friends quietly left, and began attending mainline Protestant churches where older music was still done.

Now the mainline churches are often “tradition-free” when it comes to music, and instead of a pipe organ, you’ll hear the Praise and Worship band. Sigh.

My husband actually engaged in a debate in a denominational Christian magazine. The author of the article made it clear that older people who insisted on singing “old hymns” were “stifling the Holy Spirit” and that they needed to humble themselves and repent.

My husband was furious over this, and wrote a letter to the magazine protesting this condemnation of those who like traditional music. The exchange went on for several letters.

So yes, my husband and I have lived through it, seen it happen, know plenty of elderly people who are still hurting over it. We have very thin nerves when it comes to the “Music Wars” in the Church.

How incredibly diabolical that Satan would use MUSIC to not only divide Protestants and Catholics, but to divide Catholics, too. St. Michael, the Archangel, defend us!

 

[Cat]

I have to say that those who believe the Mass should not be unduly lengthened by music are rather ignorant of Mass history.

My organ teacher (a PhD and a FAGO) gave me book of Masses by Couperin, and explained to me that back then, the Mass lasted at least two hours. The priest would sing, and then the organ would play a fairly long piece, and then the priest would sing again, and then the organ would play, and it went on. All the Mass parts that are done in the EF were done by singing or organ. It lasted a long while.

And somehow, the people managed to pray during those two hours while the organ was blasting away (yes, some of the pieces are rather lively and use more than one stop).

So don’t try to tell me that playing preludes and/or postludes interferes with your ability to pray. Take a lesson from Traditional Catholicism and learn how to pray while music is being played or sung. If you can only pray when there is silence, you will seldom pray on this earth.

 

[Lapey]

I have to say that those who believe the Mass should not be unduly lengthened by music are rather ignorant of Mass history.

My organ teacher (a PhD and a FAGO) gave me book of Masses by Couperin, and explained to me that back then, the Mass lasted at least two hours. The priest would sing, and then the organ would play a fairly long piece, and then the priest would sing again, and then the organ would play, and it went on. All the Mass parts that are done in the EF were done by singing or organ. It lasted a long while.

And somehow, the people managed to pray during those two hours while the organ was blasting away (yes, some of the pieces are rather lively and use more than one stop).

So don’t try to tell me that playing preludes and/or postludes interferes with your ability to pray. Take a lesson from Traditional Catholicism and learn how to pray while music is being played or sung. If you can only pray when there is silence, you will seldom pray on this earth.

Not too sure who you’re referring to but my comments weren’t about Mass length but rather the way these parts of the Mass are dictated by rubrics to be done. I could care less if Mass is 45 or 145 minutes, as long as it was a valid and licit celebration.

 

[phil19034]

?!?!?!?!?!??!

Typically it was the schola or choir, and they sung prayers, antiphons, and psalms. Not hymns or songs. They hymns and songs were before and after mass

 

[Cat]

Not too sure who you’re referring to but my comments weren’t about Mass length but rather the way these parts of the Mass are dictated by rubrics to be done. I could care less if Mass is 45 or 145 minutes, as long as it was a valid and licit celebration.

My comments are directed to those who believe that in the Catholic Church, there has never been organ music during the Mass, and who think that if the priest is not actually saying something, there should be dead silence so that they can pray.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

My comments are directed to those who believe that in the Catholic Church, there has never been organ music during the Mass, and who think that if the priest is not actually saying something, there should be dead silence so that they can pray.

Ah, but wouldn’t that be nice? (the silence part) I love the silence of the EF. But I also love a good Organist on Easter Sunday! We all wish Mass was different. Many of us in the parenting years yearn for a time when we can devote all our attention to the prayer of the Mass. But we must learn to enjoy and pray the best we can. And sometimes that means enduring music we would rather not hear, or voices who could use some direction. Or songs that would have better lyrics.

In my wars against the current liturgical nonsense at many parishes that I have been a member of I have learned something. Accept what you like, tolerate what is not your flavor, and fight like mad against sacrilege ( the last hardly would ever come up at my current parish) But I have been to a few where it is a common occurrence.

Honestly Cat, if people like you give up then you will either have horrid music or dead silence! Not only should you not give up, but you should continue on for people and souls like me, that need to be exposed to reverent, quality liturgical music. IN other words, leave the Newsboys to the radio…

 

[ProVobis]

A postlude requires a lot of extra practice, and if no one sticks around to listen to it, what’s the use? There are so many tasks that must be done, it seems rather foolish to spend 8-10 hours of my week (more for big Bach pieces) practicing.

The pipe organ has been called by some as Vox Dei (Voice of God). If that isn’t incentive enough to practice and play, I don’t know what is.

 

[HelenRose]

I personally find it difficult to pray with any kind of music.
If the music is bad, I am irritated,distracted and bored with it.

If the music is good and especially if it is very good, I can not pray because I am listening to the music.

I prefer silence when I pray. But that is just me.

I am referring to the closing music here.

I appreciate the efforts of any choir who give of themselves and their talents to the liturgy, even if it isn’t the best in the world.

 

[ljwahn]

I have come to the conclusion that the more “Protestant” the Catholic Church, the more verses of a hymn are sung. When living in the Bible Belt, our Catholic Mass would begin with the practice of the hymns we were to sing. Yep! Before Mass, the music director would lead us in practice, so we would “sing out” during the hymns in Mass. This was followed by a flowery musicale, as the organist “treated” us to a prolonged music solo before mass. WHERE WAS THE TIME TO PRAY AND PREPARE TO RECEIVE JESUS?? There wasn’t any! We sang all verses- just like the Protestants- and there was no time for reverent silence. It was a case of the music director thinking her part of the Mass was the most important! Now I live in a more Catholic part of the country. The music enhances Mass, but doesn’t dominate it. We sing only enough verses to process in, prepare the gifts, etc. Our focus is on God, not performance. I wonder if the priest, " trying to limit Mass to one hour", is actually trying to tone down the music- but attempting to do so without causing hurt feelings. Mass is equally powerful without music- but music can add to the experience. It should never dominate. IMHO

 

[ljwahn]

I agree. The Mass is a sacrifice, not a concert. Liturgical Music has gone to heck since Vatican II. Poor attempts at putting the Gloria and Agnus Dei to music are only that, “poor attempts”. I for one would like a time to pray before Mass and after communion. We have a song leader who thinks she is at the opera. She stands on a stool and waives her arm around like a windmill, directing the congregation. Not only is it a complete distraction, I fear one of these days her voice will shatter a stained glass window.