Mass start times

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Yet, it doesn’t matter what is meant by “evening” in English.

What does matter is what is meant by “vespere” in Latin.

There’s no way that vespere means “after noon” in Latin because it refers to the ninth hour of daylight, in the ancient system that had 12 equal hours of daylight.

If the intent of the legislator was to be “noon” then the legislator would have used the word noon in the code. That’s not what’s in the code. It’s not as if the Latin language lacks a word for noon.

Admitting that we cannot translate “vespere” into the modern clock, there is simply no way that the word can be used to mean “noon.” The word itself means (in a sense) three-quarters of the day after noon has passed. To equate “vespere” with “noon” (meridiem) is simply disingenuous. It’s like saying “four means eight” or “six means twenty.”
The opinion was that it would be helpful for Rome to answer a dubium on the meaning. No doubt that doubt arose from the various translations like using tarde instead of noche in Spanish translation from Latin, and various dialects of English.

Since you state “there is simply no way that the word can be used to mean “noon.”” I will comment that I’ve never read a definition of evening (in an English dialect) as a synonym for noon, but time after noon to sunset is a meaning. Doubt exists as shown by the various commentaries and by the confusion of people asking questions.
 
The opinion was that it would be helpful for Rome to answer a dubium on the meaning.
But the dubium then would have to be translated for all countries and, unless they specify an exact unconditional local time, you’ve effectively accomplished nothing.

The fact that Latin continues to be the official language of the Church has the advantage that current documents can be compared with past documents and provide a clue as to the meaning. In this case 4 pm, but I wouldn’t go around looking for infallibility either. The whole concept of extending the Lord’s Day (and vernacular, for that matter) was pastoral, not doctrinal.
 
But the dubium then would have to be translated for all countries and, unless they specify an exact unconditional local time, you’ve effectively accomplished nothing.

The fact that Latin continues to be the official language of the Church has the advantage that current documents can be compared with past documents and provide a clue as to the meaning. In this case 4 pm, but I wouldn’t go around looking for infallibility either. The whole concept of extending the Lord’s Day (and vernacular, for that matter) was pastoral, not doctrinal.
The intention was to not make the time precise, in the 1983 canon law, per the commentary referenced before, the Exegetical Commentary of 2004.

This thread is an echo, with no new information that I can see, of the threads in 2010 and one in 2011 that was* locked*.

dans6022 wrote in 2010:“the “Exegetical Commentary” (a Spanish production) also adopts the idea that “evening” begins at noon. It doesn’t cite anything authoritative to support this except a comment made by those who wrote the canon that the wording is “intentionally ‘general in order to avoid casuist situations and anxieties.’” The citation is to Communicationes 15, pp. 251-253.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=492772
 
From what I understand, in monastic communities, Vespere is 4:00 PM. I’m not a monk.
That would be more or less the modern understanding; I’ve visited a fair number of monasteries in Europe, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen Vespers even as early as 4 pm. Most recently, I was at Sant’Anselmo in Rome and Vespers was quite late in the evening at 7:15 pm, immediately followed by dinner in the refectory (7:45 pm). Compline was 8:30 pm. Compare that to the abbey in Canada that I’m associated to as oblate, where Vespers is at 5 pm, and Compline at 7:45 pm, followed by Grand Silence (when the Romans are just sitting down to eat).

However the notion of fixed-time Offices only came after the invention of accurate time-keeping. In Saint Benedict’s time, the times of the Offices were actually governed by the hours of daylight. Vespers was the hour of the lighting of the lamps and thus would be said at dusk, at the earliest. That could mean quite late in summer, quite early in winter.

I imagine that made for quite interesting timings at Benedictine monasticism moved to more nordic climes. In Canada, and in northern Scandinavia, that could mean Vespers as early as 2 pm!!! But I suspect by the time things moved that far north, more accurate means of keeping time were available. Heck in some parts of Canada Vespers would have to be celebrated some time in November and Lauds, some time in February!!! 😛

I think though, in modern times, 4 pm is a good rule of thumb, though I suppose one could make an argument for having Vespers end at 4 pm when, symbolically at least, the “lamps” would be lit. Which means if you had an evening Mass combined with Vespers (as is allowed by the rubrics), Vespers+Mass could start as early as 3 pm if it ended at 4.
 
The problem that I see with saying “after noon” (and when I say “noon” I actually mean what I understand others to mean “anytime after the time of noon” not exactly 12:00 itself, but I use “noon” simply for brevity) is threefold:
  1. It’s based on an American slang use of “evening.” If it were not so, then mostly everyone would simply take it for granted that “evening means after noon.” That’s far from the case. Even if we discuss the canons in the vernacular (which is not proper, but for practical purposes, we still do it) it still contradicts canon 17 which says that the canons must be interpreted according to the proper meaning of the words, and to parallel examples in the law. We have papal indults going back 70 years that effectively define “vespere” as 4:00 PM on a modern clock. That was the time established by Pope Pius XII and it’s been used consistently since then. “Custom is the best interpreter of the law.”
  2. I have yet to see any reasonable justification for “after noon” from any source. The mere fact that some canonists translate the text as “after noon” (insert the appropriate vernacular word in Spanish, Italian, whatever) in certain vernaculars really proves nothing. They simply go back-and-forth quoting each other’s translations. That’s not proof in my book. It might be a starting-point, but it’s far from a convincing argument. Translators can make mistakes, and they can be wrong (we had 40 years of faulty ICEL translations of the Mass, lest we forget).
  3. In Latin (the only language in which the code is authoritative) Vespere has its own meaning. It refers to a specific time of day. Of course, the meaning is based on a clock that we no longer use. For those who aren’t aware, the ancient Roman clock divided the day into 12 equal hours of day (sunrise to sunset) and 12 equal hours of night. The hours were equal to each other within that particular day, but they varied from the other days; in other words, an hour of daylight in summer was longer than an hour of daylight in winter.
    Vespere refers to the time of sunset. It is literally the beginning of the night.* It was the time of the lighting of the lamps which has very significant biblical and spiritual meanings. It also refers to the time when Vespers is prayed, since the Liturgy of the Hours take their names from these markers within the day.
    When we consider the Church’s use of the word Vespere (or Vespers, in English) it becomes clear that there’s no way that word can mean “immediately after the time of noon.” Vespere simply cannot refer to “beginning after noon” any more than “terce” can refer to noon or “nones” can refer to midnight.

*I got my hours mixed up on an earlier post. Vespere is not the “ninth” hour (that’s “none”) rather, it’s the first hour of the night.
 
The intention was to not make the time precise, in the 1983 canon law, per the commentary referenced before, the Exegetical Commentary of 2004.

This thread is an echo, with no new information that I can see, of the threads in 2010 and one in 2011 that was* locked*.

dans6022 wrote in 2010:“the “Exegetical Commentary” (a Spanish production) also adopts the idea that “evening” begins at noon. It doesn’t cite anything authoritative to support this except a comment made by those who wrote the canon that the wording is “intentionally ‘general in order to avoid casuist situations and anxieties.’” The citation is to Communicationes 15, pp. 251-253.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=492772
And that is the only rationale I have seen in support of the idea that *vespere *can be understood to mean any time after noon. I would respond by saying *vespere *is sufficiently general without stretching its meaning that far.

Dan
 
  1. In Latin (the only language in which the code is authoritative) Vespere has its own meaning. It refers to a specific time of day. Of course, the meaning is based on a clock that we no longer use. For those who aren’t aware, the ancient Roman clock divided the day into 12 equal hours of day (sunrise to sunset) and 12 equal hours of night. The hours were equal to each other within that particular day, but they varied from the other days; in other words, an hour of daylight in summer was longer than an hour of daylight in winter.
Maybe not that ancient. But it looks like they modernized them a bit. 🙂

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It’s 4 PM local time no matter what time zone you are on.
The Cathedral where the nearby Bishop is, has the celebration of the Sunday Mass at 2:30 PM on Saturday.

I believe that each diocese has the option. This Cathedral has many Masses, and they are quite full when I’ve attended at various times.

And…as the song says… “It’s 5 o’clock somewhere…”
 
It certainly uses it in a slang sense. The word “evening” does not mean “after 12 noon” in standard English. That use is only found in Southern US slang----it’s not used anywhere else in the English language; and even in the South, it’s rarely used except by older generations.

The commentary (not the Code, but merely the commentary, which has no force of law) relies on a slang use of the word. That’s clearly in violation of canon 17

…Yet, it doesn’t matter what is meant by “evening” in English.

What does matter is what is meant by “vespere” in Latin.
I don’t understand the insistence that the Irish author was using southern American slang in interpreting the Latin code and its English translation. If it were true that the only place where “vespere” could be translated as after noon is the southern US, Dixieland would certainly have an outsized influence on the world.

In fact, the Vatican’s Portugese and Spanish-language translators of the code chose the word “tarde” for “vespere.” I doubt it was a consequence of reading too much Flannery O’Connor or Margaret Mitchell. I am not a true scholar of any of these languages, so I can only make a guess as to their reasoning: perhaps “vespere” has a broader range of meanings, even if 4 pm is the time most commonly assigned to it.

In any case, to suggest that the original Latin code is being respected only by some posters on this thread, but that multiple canon law scholars in different countries are ignoring the Latin and relying solely on local slang, strikes me as a rather bold claim.
 
In any case, to suggest that the original Latin code is being respected only by some posters on this thread, but that multiple canon law scholars in different countries are ignoring the Latin and relying solely on local slang, strikes me as a rather bold claim.
I don’t want to put words in your mouth but are you making a case that Canon Law should be open to local interpretation?
 
I don’t want to put words in your mouth but are you making a case that Canon Law should be open to local interpretation?
The point I was making was that for any poster here to claim he is a better interpreter of canon law than a number of various international canon law scholars, and that those scholars are paying no attention to the Latin, is rather bold.

More specifically to your question, I think it’s slightly off-topic, but inevitably canon law is subject to local interpretation. Each of us strives to follow relevant canon law to the best of our own ability. In matters where we may be uncertain, or in matters where decisions are made at a parish level, we turn to our confessors and pastors to interpret canon law to the best of their ability. Ultimately the bishop is responsible for interpreting and applying canon law for his diocese, and in many cases he appoints a judicial vicar to make determinations in his name. Many such matters can then be appealed to Rome, and I think a determination on some issues can be requested from Rome in the first instance.
 
The point I was making was that for any poster here to claim he is a better interpreter of canon law than a number of various international canon law scholars, and that those scholars are paying no attention to the Latin, is rather bold.
I don’t see where pointing out a Roman clock or using previously-defined Latin terminology, not “evening” or “tarde,” is making a bold statement of any sorts. If anything, not that you did it, but stating that one’s vernacular should be the determining factor in the matter of the OP, seems to me to be somewhat arrogant, ignorant, or both.
 
I don’t understand the insistence that the Irish author was using southern American slang in interpreting the Latin code and its English translation.
Because that’s exactly what he was doing.
  1. In the article, he explains that “evening” is sometimes used to refer to a time after noon in the Southern U.S. In other words, the author is using a slang term to interpret the code in the vernacular.
  2. In standard English, the word “evening” does not mean “after noon.” It simply does not mean that to the vast majority of people who speak the language.
The very fact that people who think “evening” begins at noon must go through such great efforts to explain it to everyone else who speaks the English language is proof that to most of us, “evening begins at noon” makes no sense. If it were standard English, no explanation would be necessary.
If it were true that the only place where “vespere” could be translated as after noon is the southern US, Dixieland would certainly have an outsized influence on the world.
That’s the point. Other than occasionally being used in Southern slang, evening does not mean “after 12 noon” in the English language.
In fact, the Vatican’s Portugese and Spanish-language translators of the code chose the word “tarde” for “vespere.” I doubt it was a consequence of reading too much Flannery O’Connor or Margaret Mitchell. I am not a true scholar of any of these languages, so I can only make a guess as to their reasoning: perhaps “vespere” has a broader range of meanings, even if 4 pm is the time most commonly assigned to it.
I’m not familiar with those languages, so I’ll not comment on the translations.
In any case, to suggest that the original Latin code is being respected only by some posters on this thread, but that multiple canon law scholars in different countries are ignoring the Latin and relying solely on local slang, strikes me as a rather bold claim.
Can. 17 Ecclesiastical laws must be understood in accord with the proper meaning of the words considered in their text and context. If the meaning remains doubtful and obscure, recourse must be made to parallel places, if there are such, to the purpose and circumstances of the law, and to the mind of the legislator.

In any case, it doesn’t matter how “vespere” is translated into vernacular languages (it matters, but it does not affect the meaning of the Code).

In Latin, the word “vespere” has a specific meaning (one that, admittedly, is difficult to translate into a modern clock). Only the Latin meaning of vespere is what is relevant in interpreting the meaning and application of the code.

In Latin, “vespere” and “post meridiem” (after noon) are two different times of day. If the code was intended to mean “after the time of noon” then the canon would read “post meridiem” but the canon does not say that.

What I do not understand is why people are willing to accept this:

Can. 1248 - §1. Praecepto de Missa participanda satisfacit qui Missae assistit ubicumque celebratur ritu catholico
vel ipso die festo vel -]vespere/-] diei praecedentis.
________________post meridiem

Why is it that someone can replace a word in canon law with a different word that has a different meaning other than the word actually used in the code???
 
  1. In the article, he explains that “evening” is sometimes used to refer to a time after noon in the Southern U.S. In other words, the author is using a slang term to interpret the code in the vernacular.
I’m not sure what article you are talking about. I was discussing the British-Irish commentary.
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FrDavid96:
In standard English, the word “evening” does not mean “after noon.” It simply does not mean that to the vast majority of people who speak the language.

The very fact that people who think “evening” begins at noon must go through such great efforts to explain it to everyone else who speaks the English language is proof that to most of us, “evening begins at noon” makes no sense. If it were standard English, no explanation would be necessary.

…Other than occasionally being used in Southern slang, evening does not mean “after 12 noon” in the English language.
Not sure how relevant any of this is, since we are in agreement that the Latin is key. But the fact that Vatican translators in other languages seemingly came to the same conclusion as some English-speaking canon law experts seems to undercut the idea that the Irish author had gone “off the reservation” on this issue.
40.png
FrDavid96:
Can. 1248 - §1. Praecepto de Missa participanda satisfacit qui Missae assistit ubicumque celebratur ritu catholico
vel ipso die festo vel -]vespere/-] diei praecedentis.
________________post meridiem

Why is it that someone can replace a word in canon law with a different word that has a different meaning other than the word actually used in the code???
I don’t think you’ve demonstrated this beyond all doubt.
 
But the fact that Vatican translators in other languages seemingly came to the same conclusion as some English-speaking canon law experts seems to undercut the idea that the Irish author had gone “off the reservation” on this issue.
But what does that prove? The ICEL translated some of the Mass which was then translated into other languages and behold, “for all,” for example, started appearing in other liturgies as well. Now maybe in your case, translators might have done separate translations but it seems motives in this case (trying to maximize the fulfillment of obligation window) could have been the same. I don’t know this for a fact but it is a possibility, no?
 
What I do not understand is why people are willing to accept this:

Can. 1248 - §1. Praecepto de Missa participanda satisfacit qui Missae assistit ubicumque celebratur ritu catholico
vel ipso die festo vel -]vespere/-] diei praecedentis.
________________post meridiem

Why is it that someone can replace a word in canon law with a different word that has a different meaning other than the word actually used in the code???
I don’t think you’ve demonstrated this beyond all doubt.
Well, look at it this way:

In Latin, “vespere” refers to the time of the setting of the sun. The time when the lamps were lit because the daylight had ended.

In English, “noon” means the middle of the day; and in a modern context it means specifically 12:00 PM (and it’s that modern context to which the author refers).

Now, what I would like to know is: how does one take a word in Latin that means “the end of the day” and translate it to mean “the middle of the day?” Why would that be considered a legitimate translation or legitimate interpretation?

If the word “vespere” were sufficiently vague in Latin, I could understand how it might be seen differently by different people. But the simple fact is that the word itself pre-dates Christianity. It was one of the “markers” in the ancient Roman day. For most of Christian history (until the present day clock system was implemented) it was simply “sunset” because that was how most people lived their lives.

(It’s not that we don’t know what vespere means. It means the end of the daylight hours. The problem is not understanding the word, but applying that word in a context where we operate by a clock that is not affected by sunrise/sunset.)

At the same time, “noon” (meridiem) is also a specific time of day. It means (literally) the middle of the day; or the half-way point between sunrise and sunset.

**How can two entirely different times of day, in this case sunset and noon, possibly refer to the same time of day? **

The arguments that have been put forth in support of “vespere begins at noon” take these forms.
  1. A position that looks at the code in the vernacular and applies a slang usage of “evening” instead of the proper meaning of the word. (2 problems: 1 in the vernacular and 2 slang use).
  2. A position that says “the translator used…” (insert word in Spanish or Italian that somehow means afternoon, like tarde), therefore the code means what the translator says (and not what the code in Latin says).
  3. There is no #3.
And that, in itself, is an important point. There is nothing else to actually support the idea that “evening begins at noon.” There’s no precedent in the Church (in fact, the precedent is for 4:00 PM). There’s no explanation or reasoning beyond the extremely weak 2 points already made. There’s nothing from any source, ancient or modern, Christian or secular, to support the idea that the word “vespere” means “anytime after noon.” If it’s out there, I wish someone would share it.

Neither of these arguments convinces me.

Let’s look at it this way:
Suppose one were to take a text and translate it from English into Latin.
Let’s say that text in English says “from the time of noon onwards”
Let’s say that someone puts that into Latin and writes “vespere”
Would it not be necessarily true that we would be critical or skeptical of such a translation? Would we not say “no, noon shouldn’t be translated as vespere; instead noon should be translated as meridiem”? Why or why not?
 
Historically noon meant the ninth hour (3pm if the day was 12 hours and sunrise was 6am). Today it has a different meaning.
 
Historically noon meant the ninth hour (3pm if the day was 12 hours and sunrise was 6am). Today it has a different meaning.
The English word, “noon”? So only the last 800 years or so? Yes, that’s why “noon” and “None” are cognate.

Historically, “noon” also meant “midnight”.
 
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