Mass with spouse who contracepts

[Rau]

… You need to hear you are right about everything all the time so you are right, but is very wrong to twist things around and make others look bad. You will not get another response from me.

I don’t think Hoosier Daddy is trying to misrepresent anyone or make anyone look bad. But he is “attacking” what he sees as flawed reasoning. For example, he points out that it is a flawed reasoning process to make an argument that something is “good” or “not a sin”, despite objective evidence to the contrary, by appealing to little more than one’s “feelings”. We are not, or should not be talking about the consequences of any particular sin for an individual, since in the end, only God can know our culpability. He also points out that if one fails to see the Church as a source of authority (on matters of faith and morality), then one invariably runs the risk of “manufacturing” one’s own moral compass, rather than using the one God provided for us.

 

[Mark121359]

I think what troubles me the most about this thread, and on other similar threads as well, is reading some of the horribly misinformed beliefs on subjects such as this. And then, well informed and very well intended forum members will try to correct these flawed views with good sound Catholic teachings…only to get slammed for it, and basically told that they’re know-it-alls or worse. And it leaves them with no other alternative then to throw up their hands and say…what’s the use? And I find this very sad indeed. And I’ll tell you, I feel for those who try to teach and educate on here, only to be told that it’s just their “opinions”…when in actuality it’s spot-on authentic Catholic teachings!

***Peace, Mark ***

 

[einna]

I want to make things very clear here that I have not misspoken about what The Catholic Church teaches. I have said I went against the Catholic Church teachings and have said that I will have to face God’s judgement on that, but I will not readily accept someone telling me that I will simply not be saved because they know what will come. I never called anyone a "know-it-all’ and I resent you using phrases that were simply not used. That is what I find sad. People put things in their own words to twist things someone else said.

I am asking a moderator to take me off this sight so that I can no longer post. I hope for all of you who truly “know” that you are right. It seems some worship the Church more than they worship God. It is very difficult to think some of you KNOW what God is like and everything He will do.

 

[Rau]

I want to make things very clear here that I have not misspoken about what The Catholic Church teaches. I have said I went against the Catholic Church teachings and have said that I will have to face God’s judgement on that, but I will not readily accept someone telling me that I will simply not be saved because they know what will come. I never called anyone a "know-it-all’ and I resent you using phrases that were simply not used. That is what I find sad. People put things in their own words to twist things someone else said.

I am asking a moderator to take me off this sight so that I can no longer post. I hope for all of you who truly “know” that you are right. It seems some worship the Church more than they worship God. It is very difficult to think some of you KNOW what God is like and everything He will do.

I doubt that anyone worships the Church. But is difficult to know about God without listening to what the Church teaches. Would you agree that Christ Himself advocated that course, when he gave the " Keys" to Peter?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It seems some worship the Church more than they worship God. It is very difficult to think some of you KNOW what God is like and everything He will do.

Humankind only knows about God what God chooses to reveal. The vehicle God has chosen to do that is the Church. Knowing God is not about worshiping a Church but it is about respecting His choice to have the Church and obey the Church.

Aside from private revelations, the Church and the scriptures are the only things we have to go on. The Church has the Magesterial Authority to teach. She does. No one has judged your eternal soul and no one has worshiped a Church in place of God. To accuse differently is to fall back into the same unproductive passive aggressive debates.

 

[einna]

Humankind only knows about God what God chooses to reveal. The vehicle God has chosen to do that is the Church. Knowing God is not about worshiping a Church but it is about respecting His choice to have the Church and obey the Church.

Aside from private revelations, the Church and the scriptures are the only things we have to go on. The Church has the Magesterial Authority to teach. She does. No one has judged your eternal soul and no one has worshiped a Church in place of God. To accuse differently is to fall back into the same unproductive passive aggressive

No , some know God by how the Catholic Church interpretes how God revels Himself to us. I do not need to turn to the Catholic church to see God revealing Himself in a sunrise or the ocean, or a newborns face. Jews interpret God in other ways. The same God.

You can keep using the same phrase because you are not getting what you want, but no one that knows me would tell you I am at all passive aggressive, but rather up front and open and never claiming I am right. I know I can see God in a non-believe whether they know God or not, can you, I can see God in a bird, in the flower, in the beauty of the mountains. I do not need to consult the Church on that or quote the Bible to prove it.

You can continue to twist thing the way you have but I have not try to convince anyone the The Church’s teachings are wrong in any way.

 

[Rau]

No , some know God by how the Catholic Church interpretes how God revels Himself to us. I do not need to turn to the Catholic church to see God revealing Himself in a sunrise or the ocean, or a newborns face. Jews interpret God in other ways. The same God.

… I know I can see God in a non-believe whether they know God or not, can you, I can see God in a bird, in the flower, in the beauty of the mountains. I do not need to consult the Church on that or quote the Bible to prove it.

You can continue to twist thing the way you have but I have not try to convince anyone the The Church’s teachings are wrong in any way.

Seeing God in creation is a fine thing. It gives a glimpse of the awe and wonder of Him. But I don’t think it is possible to learn a great deal about how to live our lives by observing sunrises, birds and flowers. There may be some philosophies that have developed from these, but Catholicism isn’t one of them. Catholicism in fact places the Church in a most important role in the faith - it even rates mention in the Creed, along with the other key Catholic beliefs. Your description of the Church as being a bit like a “commentator”, delivering interpretations or a sort of running commentary, is a construct of your own making. Do you see any value in such a Church?

I don’t see anyone twisting anything you’ve said, only questioning it. That is how a discussion goes. You put ideas and reasoning, another challenges them, looks for flaws, counters them or builds upon them.

Perhaps you have not sought to convince anyone that the Church’s teachings are wrong, but I didn’t think anyone accused you of seeking to do that. I only note that you expressed certain beliefs (eg. in respect of artificial insemination), and some here have pointed out that those beliefs are contrary to what the Church teaches, and by implication (at least) asks you to give the *foundation *for your belief. I think it is accurate to say that you have not given a foundation for those beliefs (which we could then explore further) - but rather just affirmed they are your beliefs. Consequently, it’s probably not possible to further the conversation usefully.

 

[EasterJoy]

Excuse me, yes I have opinions and I have never defended my view of the what the Catholic Church teaches. I said I went against the Catholic Church, I never said they were wrong. Please get that right! I can easily go into confession and go through the motions and say I am sorry, but will know my hear and I would be committing another sin. I cannot feel what I just do not feel and people judging me isn’t going to change that, just like a Jew could never convert you.

On the book, I was not backing this idea or believe that it will be anything like that, I simply posed a question, something they do on this site all the time. I have never tried to say the Church should change and I do not claim to know nearly as much as others here, I stated how our faith was presented to us in my Catholic school. I am sorry you cannot seem to deal with the fact that so many Catholics are as devote as you are, but I did not say I was right…

My point was that C.S. Lewis was famous for saying that while he* once *believed that he deserved to have and to voice an opinion whether or not he had studied the matter enough to have an informed opinion to voice, he soon learned better from Old Knock. Therefore, if you are trying to defend the idea that you can say on one hand “I don’t know anything about this” and on the other “I have an opinion on this”, you want some author in your corner other than C.S. Lewis. He’s the kind where he’ll have you take all of him or none, not choose little pieces. He certainly would not allow you to cut off that particular part of him!!

C.S. Lewis is not your man in this discussion, that is all I am saying. Read more of his books, and you’ll know what I mean. If you haven’t read Screwtape, do yourself a favor and hunt down a copy!

(BTW, you don’t have to feel bad about a sin to renounce it. That is a very common misconception. You can reject a course of action in your past with which you see nothing wrong, with simply out of obedience, and for no other reason, and there is no duplicity in it at all! It is, in fact, a very praiseworthy thing to do! If you are willing to do differently in the future, you do not have to have a wish to un-do your past, either. Contrition only requires you to be willing to avoid the sin in the future or to make amends for what you did if that is possible. You also do not have to regret any good thing and especially not a birth that resulted from sinful circumstances. Heaven forbid, that we be forced to regret any good that God brought out of any situation!! No, that is not necessary at all. If good comes out of what ought not have been done, it deserves praise for its goodness, just the same. This is infinitely true for the birth of a child!!)

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Do you really think your marriage will last if you continue to bring this up for years to come. As I have said in early post, after trying very hard with NFP, much prayer, and speaking to a priest, I chose to use artificial insemination to have my first child. Birth control is not infallible dogma of the church and because going to a doctor for health problems is not against the church, I went to the doctor for a physical problem.

All I know is that if you do not let this go and give it up to God you might just end your marriage, Didn’t you vow to be there or worse? You can state how you clearly feel, but to repeat it every week is badgering not teaching.

Einna

When reading posts like these one can get the impression that you are falsely stating Church teaching. You need to clarify statements like

Birth control is not infallible dogma of the church and because going to a doctor for health problems is not against the church, I went to the doctor for a physical problem.

When you come on to a thread and make statements like these you are misrepresenting Catholic teaching and potentially leading others to sin. What you offer is a justification for yourself but not an answer to the question. It is not helpful to the OP to misrepresent or twist Church teaching.

 

[einna]

Seeing God in creation is a fine thing. It gives a glimpse of the awe and wonder of Him. But I don’t think it is possible to learn a great deal about how to live our lives by observing sunrises, birds and flowers. There may be some philosophies that have developed from these, but Catholicism isn’t one of them. Catholicism in fact places the Church in a most important role in the faith - it even rates mention in the Creed, along with the other key Catholic beliefs. Your description of the Church as being a bit like a “commentator”, delivering interpretations or a sort of running commentary, is a construct of your own making. Do you see any value in such a Church?

I don’t see anyone twisting anything you’ve said, only questioning it. That is how a discussion goes. You put ideas and reasoning, another challenges them, looks for flaws, counters them or builds upon them.

Perhaps you have not sought to convince anyone that the Church’s teachings are wrong, but I didn’t think anyone accused you of seeking to do that. I only note that you expressed certain beliefs (eg. in respect of artificial insemination), and some here have pointed out that those beliefs are contrary to what the Church teaches, and by implication (at least) asks you to give the *foundation *for your belief. I think it is accurate to say that you have not given a foundation for those beliefs (which we could then explore further) - but rather just affirmed they are your beliefs. Consequently, it’s probably not possible to further the conversation usefully.

I find that sad that you can see speaking to you and how to live your life with all the beauty and awe he has created.

I did give foundation, but from everything you have said in this post you have not read all the other post or were not paying attention. I said I followed my conscious after talking to my doctor, a priest and praying about it like I was told to do. I went back and read the part of the CCC that talks about morals conscious, and I do not see where that doesn’t fit to my situation. I did not hurt anyone else or myself. I do not believe that I was hurting God. To me I was dealing with a medical condition and with help from doctor I was able to have a baby, something that I do believe was an evil act by evil means. If you can go back and read the CCC on conscious and think that I was still wrong, please let me know.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I find that sad that you can see speaking to you and how to live your life with all the beauty and awe he has created.

I did give foundation, but from everything you have said in this post you have not read all the other post or were not paying attention. I said I followed my conscious after talking to my doctor, a priest and praying about it like I was told to do. I went back and read the part of the CCC that talks about morals conscious, and I do not see where that doesn’t fit to my situation. I did not hurt anyone else or myself. I do not believe that I was hurting God. To me I was dealing with a medical condition and with help from doctor I was able to have a baby, something that I do believe was an evil act by evil means. If you can go back and read the CCC on conscious and think that I was still wrong, please let me know.

something that I do believe was an evil act by evil means. If you can go back and read the CCC on conscious and think that I was still wrong, please let me know.

I am so confused? You believe it was an evil act by evil means and you want to know if someone can prove that doing an evil act by evil means is wrong?

 

[einna]

I am so confused? You believe it was an evil act by evil means and you want to know if someone can prove that doing an evil act by evil means is wrong?

I am sorry I meant to say I did not believe it was an evil act by evil means.

 

[einna]

My point was that C.S. Lewis was famous for saying that while he* once *believed that he deserved to have and to voice an opinion whether or not he had studied the matter enough to have an informed opinion to voice, he soon learned better from Old Knock. Therefore, if you are trying to defend the idea that you can say on one hand “I don’t know anything about this” and on the other “I have an opinion on this”, you want some author in your corner other than C.S. Lewis. He’s the kind where he’ll have you take all of him or none, not choose little pieces. He certainly would not allow you to cut off that particular part of him!!

C.S. Lewis is not your man in this discussion, that is all I am saying. Read more of his books, and you’ll know what I mean. If you haven’t read Screwtape, do yourself a favor and hunt down a copy!

(BTW, you don’t have to feel bad about a sin to renounce it. That is a very common misconception. You can reject a course of action in your past with which you see nothing wrong, with simply out of obedience, and for no other reason, and there is no duplicity in it at all! It is, in fact, a very praiseworthy thing to do! If you are willing to do differently in the future, you do not have to have a wish to un-do your past, either. Contrition only requires you to be willing to avoid the sin in the future or to make amends for what you did if that is possible. You also do not have to regret any good thing and especially not a birth that resulted from sinful circumstances. Heaven forbid, that we be forced to regret any good that God brought out of any situation!! No, that is not necessary at all. If good comes out of what ought not have been done, it deserves praise for its goodness, just the same. This is infinitely true for the birth of a child!!)

I did not bring up Elliot to make a statement about him, his works, or his beliefs. I was simply bring up the idea of getting to heaven and hearing from God that we had to give up all ideas of family, religion, education, earning, etc. and how people might handle it. I really should have put that in a “what would you do post”.

You do have to be truly sorry for a sin you think you have committed. I do not think I committed a sin, so I am not sorry, nor will I be in the future. I was planning to have my next child the same way but as it turn out, probably from the intense hormones from my first pregnancy, I ended up pregnant 11 months after my son was born with out medical help.

 

[Tigg]

I think what troubles me the most about this thread, and on other similar threads as well, is reading some of the horribly misinformed beliefs on subjects such as this. And then, well informed and very well intended forum members will try to correct these flawed views with good sound Catholic teachings…only to get slammed for it, and basically told that they’re know-it-alls or worse. And it leaves them with no other alternative then to throw up their hands and say…what’s the use? And I find this very sad indeed. And I’ll tell you, I feel for those who try to teach and educate on here, only to be told that it’s just their “opinions”…when in actuality it’s spot-on authentic Catholic teachings!

***Peace, Mark ***

There is another thread which linked to an article by Bshp Paprocki in which he is quoted as saying that the “symbiosis between our culture and the Church has been ruptured” meaning that in the past many secular values mirrored religious ones, but no longer do. He states this change toward a pagan culture has resulted in an unconscious hatred for the faith. I think the subject of this thread perfectly illustrates how he is correct. Catholics will allow no one to tell them they cannot contracept and the polls (if accurate) bear this out. Family matters are decided between spouses, regardless of Church teaching. Previous interior convictions of a moral good have been dulled by the world and by selfishness, so when the conscience irritates, instead of admitting error, obstinance sets in and we hear remarks like this (Post #37):

This is where the Church is too far behind the times.