Mass

[japhy]

You only talked about the Passion! It doesn’t limit “parts” to the Passion in what you quoted! Everything people have quoted only pertains to Holy Week!

Sorry- I’m just a little frustrated. My roommate keeps telling me the GIRM nor the Lectionary limits the Gospel outside of Holy Week.

That’s because Holy Week contains the exception to the rule!

The normative rule, found in the GIRM and in the documents at the front of the Lectionary, and repeated in documents like Redemptionis Sacramentum that benedictgal posted, is that the Gospel is ONLY allowed to be read by a priest or deacon.

The exception to this rule is made in the Sacramentary explicitly for Palm Sunday and Good Friday. Those are the only two exceptions made; that is the only time permission is granted.

GIRM #59: “The readings … should be proclaimed by a lector, and the Gospel by a deacon or, in his absence, a priest other than the celebrant. If, however, a deacon or another priest is not present, the priest celebrant himself should read the Gospel.” It says NOTHING about allowing a layman to read it.

 

[Mgkwho]

“Should” does not mean “must” though!

I just talked to a priest and he said an ordained minister has to open and close the Gospel, but that’s all!

 

[benedictgal]

“Should” does not mean “must” though!

I just talked to a priest and he said an ordained minister has to open and close the Gospel, but that’s all!

That is not true. Redemptionis Sacramentum specifically states that:

63.] Within the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy, the reading of the Gospel, which is “the high point of the Liturgy of the Word”,139 is reserved by the Church’s tradition to an ordained minister.140 Thus it is not permitted for a layperson, even a religious, to proclaim the Gospel reading in the celebration of Holy Mass, nor in other cases in which the norms do not explicitly permit it.141

The only exception, and I hate repeating myself (but, I did hear that the average person will learn something if it’s repeated 17 times) comes during Holy Week when the Passion is proclaimed on Palm Sunday and Good Friday. Even then, when read in dialogue form, the part of Christ is reserved to the priest.

 

[japhy]

“Should” does not mean “must” though! I just talked to a priest and he said an ordained minister has to open and close the Gospel, but that’s all!

That’s utter nonsense. That priest is being dreadfully dishonest if he (and you) are serious.

Redemptionis Sacramentum, n. 63:“Within the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy, the reading of the Gospel, which is “the high point of the Liturgy of the Word”, {GIRM 60} is reserved by the Church’s tradition to an ordained minister. {cf. GIRM 59-60} Thus it is not permitted for a layperson, even a religious, to proclaim the Gospel reading in the celebration of Holy Mass, nor in other cases in which the norms do not explicitly permit it.

Besides, there’s far more that must be done than simply opening the book, reading, and closing the book. Beforehand, the deacon requests a blessing (Iube, domine, benedicere) from the priest (Dominus sit in corde tuo…); or, if a priest reads it, he asks requests a blessing from the Lord (Munda cor meum…). The priest or deacon says Dominus vobiscum and Lectio sancti Evangelii secundum N.. The Gospel is signed with the cross. Afterwards, the priest or deacon kisses the Gospel and says quietly, Per evangelica dicta deleantur nostra delicta.

 

[Mgkwho]

Where is that exception stated though?

And it says “in other cases in which the norms do not explicitly permit it”. Well, what about this priest who says as long as an ordained minister opens and closes the Gospel?

I’m not trying to sound like a whiny, arrogant college student- my roommate hasn’t talked to me in two days (I know) in part because I was trying to say this to him. He contends that it is allowed.

Thanks!

 

[benedictgal]

That’s utter nonsense. That priest is being dreadfully dishonest if he (and you) are serious.

Redemptionis Sacramentum, n. 63:“Within the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy, the reading of the Gospel, which is “the high point of the Liturgy of the Word”, {GIRM 60} is reserved by the Church’s tradition to an ordained minister. {cf. GIRM 59-60} Thus it is not permitted for a layperson, even a religious, to proclaim the Gospel reading in the celebration of Holy Mass, nor in other cases in which the norms do not explicitly permit it.

Besides, there’s far more that must be done than simply opening the book, reading, and closing the book. Beforehand, the deacon requests a blessing (Iube, domine, benedicere) from the priest (Dominus sit in corde tuo…); or, if a priest reads it, he asks requests a blessing from the Lord (Munda cor meum…). The priest or deacon says Dominus vobiscum and Lectio sancti Evangelii secundum N.. The Gospel is signed with the cross. Afterwards, the priest or deacon kisses the Gospel and says quietly, Per evangelica dicta deleantur nostra delicta.

Not to mention the fact that more happens when the Bishop is the celebrant, let alone the Pope. Furthermore, if incense is involved, the priset or deacon process the Book of the Gospels with candles and incense then, after the greeting (Dominus vobiscum) he incenses the Gospel. If the bishop is the celebrant, then the deacon and/or priest processes the Book of the Gospels for the Bishop to kiss. When the Pope is the celebrant, after venerating the Book of the Gospels, he blesses the faithful with it.

So, it’s not as cut and dry as your priest says. And, as japhy and I both noted, the proclamation of the Gospel is reserved to ordain clergy only (as is the homily).

 

[benedictgal]

Where is that exception stated though?

And it says “in other cases in which the norms do not explicitly permit it”. Well, what about this priest who says as long as an ordained minister opens and closes the Gospel?

I’m not trying to sound like a whiny, arrogant college student- my roommate hasn’t talked to me in two days (I know) in part because I was trying to say this to him. He contends that it is allowed.

Thanks!

We have already given you the exceptions. These come from Paschales Solemnitatis, and apply only to Holy Week. Specifically, the exceptions are for the proclamation of the Passion on Palm Sunday and Good Friday. Perhaps your roomate is the one who may need the 17 repetitions.

Here it is one more time:

Palm Sunday
33. The passion narrative occupies a special place. It should be sung or read in the traditional way, that is, by three persons who take the part of Christ, the narrator, and the people. The passion is proclaimed by deacons or priests, or by lay readers. In the latter case, the part of the Christ should be reserved to the priest.

The proclamation of the passion should be without candles and incense; the greeting and the sings of the cross are omitted; and only a deacon asks for the blessing, as he does before the Gospel. [37] For the spiritual good of the faithful, the passion should be proclaimed in its entirety, and the readings that proceed it should not be omitted.

1. After the passion has been proclaimed, a homily is to be given.

Good Friday
66. The readings are to be read in their entirety. The responsorial psalm and the chant before the gospel are to be sung in the usual manner. ***The narrative of the Lord’s passion according to John is sung or read in the way prescribed for the previous Sunday (cf. n. 33). ***After the reading of the passion, a homily should be given, at the end of which the faithful may be invited to spend a short time in meditation. [69]

Paschale Solemnitatis is a valid church document and it is still in force.

 

[Mgkwho]

But you’re not saying where it is written that

“the proclamation of the Passion on Palm Sunday and Good Friday”

are the only exceptions!! Just because they might be the only written examples, that does not seem to rule out the possibility for others!

Thanks!

 

[japhy]

Where is that exception stated though? And it says “in other cases in which the norms do not explicitly permit it”. Well, what about this priest who says as long as an ordained minister opens and closes the Gospel?

It’s allowed on Palm Sunday and on Good Friday, when the Gospel may be read with various parts assigned to various people. It says so in the Sacramentary (a.k.a. the Roman Missal). It’s also allowed outside of Mass, when there is a Liturgy of the Word with no ordained minister to read the Gospel. That is where the norms explicitly permit it.

Ask your priest for some support for his position.

 

[jmcrae]

But you’re not saying where it is written that

“the proclamation of the Passion on Palm Sunday and Good Friday”

are the only exceptions!! Just because they might be the only written examples, that does not seem to rule out the possibility for others!

Thanks!

I think it’s safe to assume that if there were other examples, they would be listed. The Liturgy of the Word isn’t a “do it yourself” thing where you can make stuff up as you go along. If you don’t find a script in your Missalette, then it is just generally assumed that you will not do a skit for Mass that day.

Your friend will probably not accept that - he probably thinks that Mass is a form of either entertainment or art, and that the selections in the Missalette are suggestions; not requirements. And there’s not much you can do about that, until he gets his head around the idea of what a Liturgy is.

 

[japhy]

But you’re not saying where it is written that “the proclamation of the Passion on Palm Sunday and Good Friday” are the only exceptions!! Just because they might be the only written examples, that does not seem to rule out the possibility for others!

What other type of example would you like? A sound file of some priest or bishop saying something?

In the context of the Mass, THE ONLY EXCEPTIONS as stated in PS and the Missale Romanum are Palm Sunday and Good Friday. No other days. Outside of Mass is a different issue.

 

[benedictgal]

But you’re not saying where it is written that

“the proclamation of the Passion on Palm Sunday and Good Friday”

are the only exceptions!! Just because they might be the only written examples, that does not seem to rule out the possibility for others!

Thanks!

These are the only examples that the Church allows. You can’t be making up your own liturgy of the word as jmcrae and japhy have rightly stated.

This is what Redemptionis Sacramentum says:

63.] Within the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy, the reading of the Gospel, which is “the high point of the Liturgy of the Word”,139 is reserved by the Church’s tradition to an ordained minister.140 Thus it is not permitted for a layperson, even a religious, to proclaim the Gospel reading in the celebration of Holy Mass, nor in other cases in which the norms do not explicitly permit it.141

[64.] The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself,142 “should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but never to a layperson.143 In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate”.144

This should be perfectly clear. What further proof do you need? We have all done our best to answer your question with authoritative resources. These are the answers the Church, herself, gives. That you may not be satisifed with them leads me to perhaps believe that you and your roommate may not like what the documents state. You can’t twist and mold the documents to suit a particular idiosyncracy.

This is one of those instances where creativity is not allowed. The only time the Church allows for creativity is in choosing the texts, propers and readings, and these must be from sources that carry the necessary approval from the Holy See. Anything else is not allowed.

 

[agapewolf]

What other type of example would you like? A sound file of some priest or bishop saying something?

In the context of the Mass, THE ONLY EXCEPTIONS as stated in PS and the Missale Romanum are Palm Sunday and Good Friday. No other days. Outside of Mass is a different issue.

Incorrect. See my post above. #17

 

[benedictgal]

Incorrect. See my post above. #17

Agapewolf, we aren’t talking about Children’s Masses because, if you read the OP, that wasn’t the scenario that was presented. Furthermore, what you are describing is only applicable for kids who have not yet reached their tweens.

You can’t even justify doing that at LT because your group is past that age.

One other caveat that bears mentioning: the faithful have to be comprised mostly of chlidren (with just a smattering of adults). The Children’s Lectionary (nor the EPs for children) should be used when adults make up most of the faithful at Mass.

You can only stretch the rubber band so far until it snaps back.

 

[Phemie]

But you’re not saying where it is written that

“the proclamation of the Passion on Palm Sunday and Good Friday”

are the only exceptions!! Just because they might be the only written examples, that does not seem to rule out the possibility for others!

Thanks!

The Introduction to the Lectionary says "49. Liturgical tradition assigns responsibility for the biblical readings in the celebration of Mass to ministers: to readers and the deacon. But when there is no deacon or another priest present, the priest celebrant is to read the gospel and when there is no reader present, all the readings.

1. We aren’t allowed to use any book but the Lectionary and an approved Book of Gospel.
2. The Church already provides us with the readings that may be read by a layperson at Mass: the 4 Passion narratives, written in dialogue form which are found in the Lectionary & the Book of Gospels.

 

[benedictgal]

The Introduction to the Lectionary says "49. Liturgical tradition assigns responsibility for the biblical readings in the celebration of Mass to ministers: to readers and the deacon. But when there is no deacon or another priest present, the priest celebrant is to read the gospel and when there is no reader present, all the readings.

1. We aren’t allowed to use any book but the Lectionary and an approved Book of Gospel.
2. The Church already provides us with the readings that may be read by a layperson at Mass: the 4 Passion narratives, written in dialogue form which are found in the Lectionary & the Book of Gospels.

And, let’s not forget that when the Passion is read in dialogue form, the part of Christ is always reserved for the priest, as stipulated in Paschale Solemnitatis.

Phemie, do you guys use the French lectionary and Book of the Gospel from the French conference? I ask this because we use the Spanish ones from the Mexican Conference of Bishops. Some day we should have a set for the U.S., but, in the meantime, we need to use the one from Mexico. The only exception is that the psalms come from Spain. Go figure.

 

[agapewolf]

Agapewolf, we aren’t talking about Children’s Masses because, if you read the OP, that wasn’t the scenario that was presented. Furthermore, what you are describing is only applicable for kids who have not yet reached their tweens.

You can’t even justify doing that at LT because your group is past that age.

One other caveat that bears mentioning: the faithful have to be comprised mostly of chlidren (with just a smattering of adults). The Children’s Lectionary (nor the EPs for children) should be used when adults make up most of the faithful at Mass.

You can only stretch the rubber band so far until it snaps back.

WHOOOAAA calm down there!!!

THere were statements made repeatedly, about the ONLY exceptions. Perhaps I should have just quoted the DMC itself instead of reffering to my post that spoke about youth masses, but I was refuting this statement:

*In the context of the Mass, THE ONLY EXCEPTIONS as stated in PS and the Missale Romanum are Palm Sunday and Good Friday. *

Which is proven wrong by the DMC.

People are so “All or nothing” here when it is not applicable.

 

[Phemie]

And, let’s not forget that when the Passion is read in dialogue form, the part of Christ is always reserved for the priest, as stipulated in Paschale Solemnitatis.

Phemie, do you guys use the French lectionary and Book of the Gospel from the French conference? I ask this because we use the Spanish ones from the Mexican Conference of Bishops. Some day we should have a set for the U.S., but, in the meantime, we need to use the one from Mexico. The only exception is that the psalms come from Spain. Go figure.

Hmm, I haven’t seen a French Lectionary in ages (this parish is strictly English), let me check… looking on the CCCB site it appears that our Lectionaries & the Sacramentary are published in France so I’m assuming we’re using theirs. Publishing our own for the few parishes who would use them would make them too expensive for most parishes. Even at that the French Sacramentary is $140 more expensive than the English one.

Canada doesn’t have a Book of Gospels. Permission to use the NRSV translation was rescinded before one had been printed. Since the English couldn’t have one, then the French weren’t getting one either. That will change now that changes have been accepted/approved that will see us getting a new series of Lectionaries in the next few years.

 

[benedictgal]

WHOOOAAA calm down there!!!

THere were statements made repeatedly, about the ONLY exceptions. Perhaps I should have just quoted the DMC itself instead of reffering to my post that spoke about youth masses, but I was refuting this statement:

*In the context of the Mass, THE ONLY EXCEPTIONS as stated in PS and the Missale Romanum are Palm Sunday and Good Friday. *

Which is proven wrong by the DMC.

People are so “All or nothing” here when it is not applicable.

Phemie, in a couple of the parishes in my diocese, the celebrants have been known to use the EP for Children even when adults compose a majority of the faithful. The adaptations for children was only meant when they made up a majority of the faithful. Even the so-called Children’s Mass in my parish is a misnomer because, while we do have a children’s choir singing along (and a child cantor), the adults make up a majority of the faithful. What has been most disconcerting is the fact that one of the priests routinely substitutes the Kyrie with the kiddie song, “O God we are your children” and walks up and down the aisle with a microphone in his hand and shoves it under a child’s chin to get him to sing. The parents think it’s cute, but, the kids are not being taught the rudiments of the Mass.

Maybe I sounded all or nothing. I didn’t mean to in my post. However, I’m just advocating that we should exercise care and judgment on these things. Having been exposed to the sort of things that I have mentioned above makes me leery, very leery.

 

[japhy]

THere were statements made repeatedly, about the ONLY exceptions. Perhaps I should have just quoted the DMC itself instead of reffering to my post that spoke about youth masses, but I was refuting this statement:

*In the context of the Mass, THE ONLY EXCEPTIONS as stated in PS and the Missale Romanum are Palm Sunday and Good Friday. *

Which is proven wrong by the DMC.

People are so “All or nothing” here when it is not applicable.

Sorry. I forgot the case in the DMC. That’s another exception.