Mass

[henrikhank]

Pax et bonum!
Last Friday was the feast of the Sacred Heart so I attended Mass, Novus Ordo. We all know one of the greatest youtube videos ever: youtube.com/watch?v=enWiFcsBqIE
At mass last Friday they were not chanting like this. It was more like this: youtube.com/watch?v=G2Ejipe3rVE
It was very sad to hear modern hymns instead of Gregorian chant. The music was still beautiful. I do love these kinds of hymns (in Swedish) but I don’t know if this is good for Mass. We could say that Gregorian music has been a part European culture but not part of Tamil culture so would it be ok for them to chant like this youtube.com/watch?v=xER-1cA_k_A ? It must also have been difficult for the vikings to sing Gregoian chant since it was not a pat of their culture.
Many times at Mass I had to tell myself that we still worship Him, the Lord, and that focusing too much on outside details isn’t so pius at all. We have monasteries and churches inside of us. un-conservative Novus Ordo is Valid and accepted by the church. If we are against this Mass we are against the church, aren’t we? and we would be criticizing priesthood? JP2 who is a saint celebrated Novus Ordo.
It seems that most Roman Catholics want the modern Mass (sometimes with women doing altar service). They don’t even celebrate the consevative Novus Ordo: youtube.com/watch?v=_8qAKHSGS1o
Just because most people don’t care much for the Tridentine Mass the church don’t do much for us who want it. It’s like the church only cares about what most people want.

So if we are going to celebrated the Tridentine Mass everyday in all cities would we solve all liturgical problems? I guess not. The extraordinary form still accept people to wear dirty shoes in the sanctuary although this is anti-biblical.
Then we have communion. In the Ordinary form People often stand (like the Byzantines) and receive communion. Sometimes hand communion. You all know what’s happening at Novus Ordo. I am against hand communion but we all know that Joseph and Mary did carry Jesus in their arms so why can’t we do this?
Then I think that maybe the Mass celebrated before the council of Trent would be even better then the 1962 Missal. But I don’t know.
I also think that many people who like the Tridentine Mass are focusing too much on liturgy and less on actually living life and practicing non-violence.
Then we have the readings at Mass. In the Extraordinary form no lay people are reading the epistles even though Jews practiced having lay people reading from holy scripture.

I would also like to say that before being very interested in Christianity I was for a time interested in Hinduism (which still is interesting) and that the Ad Orientem and liturgical languages are very fitting for people who have had that interest.

I am not Catholic yet so I am happy to not taking communion at a modern Mass.
I have even been thinking about becoming Coptic Orthodox just because they could never celebrate Mass versus Populum and in their monasteries you must take off you shoes and they always fast for many hours before receiving communion.
And sometimes I feel like traveling to another city or attending an SSPX mass just to get the Tridentine Mass but I haven’t done that yet. Sometime I wonder if I should go to the Eastern/Oriental Catholics just in order to get a conservative Mass. I think some of them like the Maronite for example are often very modern but the Melkites or the Ethiopians/Eritreans are conservative.
Traditionalist often say that Mass must be in a liturgical language so is it wrong for Melkites to use awesome Arabaic?

Maybe I just want the Franciscan rite.
Please talk about all of this!

 

[DianaCC]

…I have even been thinking about becoming Coptic Orthodox just because they could never celebrate Mass versus Populum and in their monasteries you must take off you shoes and they always fast for many hours before receiving communion…

Is that a reason to convert to Coptic Orthodox?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Is that a reason to convert to Coptic Orthodox?

I’ve seen people go to churches that undermine papal authority and the validity of the papacy today just because the Liturgy is in some old, dead language.

 

[DianaCC]

I’ve seen people go to churches that undermine papal authority and the validity of the papacy today just because the Liturgy is in some old, dead language.

I know a family that converted because there was a coffee shop in the lobby. But our Swede is struggling with the inevitable decadence of secular ideology. He sees the signs of authenticity in the churches that have held fast to the traditions that were entrusted once and for all to the saints, but if he digs deeply enough he will either reach bedrock or those famous “turtles all the way down”. Perhaps we can offer him a shovel.

 

[henrikhank]

Is that a reason to convert to Coptic Orthodox?

it’s like if they never changed their theology!

I’ve seen people go to churches that undermine papal authority and the validity of the papacy today just because the Liturgy is in some old, dead language.

please explain

I know a family that converted because there was a coffee shop in the lobby.

no this is not good. Do the church really confirm such people.

But our Swede is struggling with the inevitable decadence of secular ideology. He sees the signs of authenticity in the churches that have held fast to the traditions that were entrusted once and for all to the saints, but if he digs deeply enough he will either reach bedrock or those famous “turtles all the way down”. Perhaps we can offer him a shovel.

Oh, the beloved Swede. digging?

 

[TrueLight]

Hi there,

At mass last Friday they were not chanting like this. It was more like this: youtube.com/watch?v=G2Ejipe3rVE

On another note, Swedes make great metal music, but I digress.

The extraordinary form still accept people to wear dirty shoes in the sanctuary although this is anti-biblical.

Interesting. I haven’t seen any Christian groups object to wearing shoes in the sanctuary. Only muslims.

 

[laszlo]

Just because most people don’t care much for the Tridentine Mass the church don’t do much for us who want it. It’s like the church only cares about what most people want.

I would say on that way that the Hierarchy has the obligation by the natural Law to serve everyone. If you count the number of the people attending a New Form mass, and the number of the people attending a TLM in average, you will see, that people wanting the traditional form are served well.

The unfortunate thing is that if you check regularly the lists for the Traditional Latin Mass locations there were increasing fast after 2007, but recently many are discontinued, and the most frequent reason is low attendance.

God is shining His sun over everyone, so no group can appropriate the liturgy for the want of a few.

 

[GloriousOrder]

Henrik, I agree with much of what you say. Your post has a sort of moderation and balance in it that works to your credit.

Ignore the objection about Coptic Orthodox. Converting to them specifically because they observe fasting, take off their shoes (leave the world behind) to enter the sanctuary, and pray ad-orientem, etc., are all good reasons. These people have a sense of the holiness of God and how set apart His greatness truly is from we sinners. Western attitudes have slowly become so secular and humanist that anyone can trudge around the sanctuary of a church. I feel so guilty when I have to walk up through the sanctuary to get to the sacristy and ask a question… it’s like I’m bringing dirt and dust into an immaculate mansion. The way Catholic ushers treat the sanctuary (when going to ask questions of servers before Mass) is very scandalous to me, as most ushers don’t even bow or nod at the tabernacle while they pass. We have no sense of God left here, just a sense of Community and Sunday Obligation.

Many of these things are not enough to sustain the faith of legions. It’s why Ireland, such a bastion of the faith, now has more agnostics and atheists than Catholics (though often hidden by conscience and a sense of duty to go with the family on Sunday). Those young who never go anymore are avoiding it for two reasons: 1. the moral relativism taught by so many boring priests has simply taught them to make their own moral choices, and 2. the presentation of the Mass has become so lame that they feel embarrassed being there. I certainly feel embarrassed when Christ Jesus the Holy Lord is praised with acoustic guitar and electric bass by some punk kid who won’t tuck his shirt in or cut his hair. What a difference between that and the mysterious Gregorian chant, so ancient and modal!

We seriously need to go on the offensive with this. I don’t know how, but we’ll think of a way. Vatican II teaches that the laity ought to be more involved… well, get involved and start forcing reverence down everyone’s throats. Most people don’t really care, and won’t mind what’s done, so long as there’s someone strong to lead the charge.

 

[malphono]

I think some of them like the Maronite for example are often very modern but the Melkites or the Ethiopians/Eritreans are conservative.

Yes, the Maronites have serious liturgical problems, and so does the Syro-Malabar Church and Coptic CC, but the reality is that the Melkites are not exempt from same. I’ve seen far too many Melkite DLs done on a versus populum table (of course without so much as one word in Greek), without even a portable iconostasis, and with modern “hymns” instead of traditional Byzantine chant, etc, to be under any delusion that they haven’t been affected.

Maybe I just want the Franciscan rite.

There is not, and never has been, a “Franciscan Rite” as such.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I know a family that converted because there was a coffee shop in the lobby. But our Swede is struggling with the inevitable decadence of secular ideology. He sees the signs of authenticity in the churches that have held fast to the traditions that were entrusted once and for all to the saints, but if he digs deeply enough he will either reach bedrock or those famous “turtles all the way down”. Perhaps we can offer him a shovel.

I know. My brother-in-law started going to a Baptist Church right after I got him as godfather for my son just because they have daycare during service for his 3 kids. Too bad you can’t change godparents anymore (and believe me, I tried).

please explain

There are many who go for a Liturgy they like even with groups that are hostile to the hierarchy of the Church.

 

[henrikhank]

The Roman rite has changed so much during the years and now they even allow Versus Populum so in the future the Roman rite will some really different from the old version of it. We may even have to say that the church is creating a new rite and killing the Roman rite

Hi there,



On another note, Swedes make great metal music, but I digress.

Interesting. I haven’t seen any Christian groups object to wearing shoes in the sanctuary. Only muslims.

And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.(Exodus 3:5)
and I don’t think Jesus wore shoes at the sanctuaries. I guess it’s only at the Coptic monasteries where you must take off your shoes.
btw, what metal bands?

you will see, that people wanting the traditional form are served well.
/QUOTE]
not where I live!
GloriousOrder;8067577:

Henrik, I agree with much of what you say. Your post has a sort of moderation and balance in it that works to your credit.

Ignore the objection about Coptic Orthodox. Converting to them specifically because they observe fasting, take off their shoes (leave the world behind) to enter the sanctuary, and pray ad-orientem, etc., are all good reasons. These people have a sense of the holiness of God and how set apart His greatness truly is from we sinners. Western attitudes have slowly become so secular and humanist that anyone can trudge around the sanctuary of a church. I feel so guilty when I have to walk up through the sanctuary to get to the sacristy and ask a question… it’s like I’m bringing dirt and dust into an immaculate mansion. The way Catholic ushers treat the sanctuary (when going to ask questions of servers before Mass) is very scandalous to me, as most ushers don’t even bow or nod at the tabernacle while they pass. We have no sense of God left here, just a sense of Community and Sunday Obligation.

Why are you even Roman Catholic?

Yes, the Maronites have serious liturgical problems, and so does the Syro-Malabar Church and Coptic CC, but the reality is that the Melkites are not exempt from same. I’ve seen far too many Melkite DLs done on a versus populum table (of course without so much as one word in Greek), without even a portable iconostasis, and with modern “hymns” instead of traditional Byzantine chant, etc, to be under any delusion that they haven’t been affected.

I think the Melkites here where I live are awesome but I am not an expert on their rite. Is it good that they use much arabic?
what’s a portable iconostasis?
Well, yes I attended a very strange Syro-Malabar Liturgy with vesus Populum and having it said in Malayalam doesn’t sound so good.
And the Maronite Liturgy I attended looked like some people who are not Roman Catholic tried to do celebrate the Novus Ordo instead of just attending a Novus Ordo Mass. Really strange.

There is not, and never has been, a “Franciscan Rite” as such.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Order_Rites#Franciscan_Rite

There are many who go for a Liturgy they like even with groups that are hostile to the hierarchy of the Church.

what groups?

 

[ConstantineTG]

what groups?

The so called “independent” Catholic Churches, the sedevacantists.

 

[henrikhank]

The so called “independent” Catholic Churches, the sedevacantists.

well, SSPX are not in this group

 

[ConstantineTG]

well, SSPX are not in this group

I never said they were.

 

[malphono]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Order_Rites#Franciscan_Rite

Please reread the first sentence in that article (emphasis added):

The Franciscans, unlike the Dominicans, Carmelites and other orders, have never had a peculiar rite properly so called, but conformably to the mind of St. Francis of Assisi always followed the Roman Rite for the celebration of Mass.

Brother JR has posted on this topic many times in this forum.

 

[henrikhank]

Brother JR has posted on this topic many times in this forum.

where to find him?

 

[GloriousOrder]

Why are you even Roman Catholic?

I’m Roman Catholic because I believe the Church is closest to the truth. Other denominations may have more outward devotion to the Liturgy than your average Catholic, but the Church itself remains a bastion of divine truth. The abuses of the holy Mass and other corporal problems do not affect my faith.

 

[TimothyH]

On another note, Swedes make great metal music, but I digress.

My duaghter would ague that the Finns are slightly better.

Like father like daughter, I guess, and if that is any indication, life is gonna be tough for her.

-Tim-

 

[henrikhank]

I’m Roman Catholic because I believe the Church is closest to the truth. Other denominations may have more outward devotion to the Liturgy than your average Catholic, but the Church itself remains a bastion of divine truth. The abuses of the holy Mass and other corporal problems do not affect my faith.

If the church isn’t so devoted to the Mass then it kind of has to do with the faith. would that be a problem?