Masterbation

[Blue_Horizon]

If you give in to the temptation and begin masturbating, that is when the Mortal Sin is committed.

DSHix this is not the best moral theology and therefore I have to advise the OP not to accept your advice - especially as you seem to have an official title (“Greeter”) re this Forum.

Yes, masturbation is an act that always involves “grave matter.”
“Giving in to temptation” cannot be unequivocably understood to mean “fully free and with full knowledge.” Quite the opposite.

It is fairly clear from the OP’s situation that he is highly likely not in full possession of his freedom and this is therefore not a fully human act. Venial sin would normally be predicated in this situation - especially as regular confession and mass attendance is evident along with “battle intent”. These are not the actions of one in mortal sin who does not consider God a friend.

 

[dshix]

DSHix this is not the best moral theology and therefore I have to advise the OP not to accept your advice - especially as you seem to have an official title (“Greeter”) re this Forum.

I’m not sure what having a “Greeter” title has to do with anything…

Yes, masturbation is an act that always involves “grave matter.”
“Giving in to temptation” cannot be unequivocably understood to mean “fully free and with full knowledge.” Quite the opposite.

I never said that it was always with full free will and knowledge. I was responding to this particular situation, and I judge that in this case all three requirements for the mortal sin are there: It is obviously grave matter, he obviously knows it is grave matter, and the fact that he is telling us he knows all this yet he still fails to temptation means that he did choose the act. Granted, the culpability of the OP may be lessened, but that doesn’t mean it ceases to be mortal.

It is fairly clear from the OP’s situation that he is highly likely not in full possession of his freedom and this is therefore not a fully human act. Venial sin would normally be predicated in this situation - especially as regular confession and mass attendance is evident along with “battle intent”. These are not the actions of one in mortal sin who does not consider God a friend.

You are construing “free will” to mean that a person has to actually think “Yes, I’m going to do this sin to anger God and I’m doing it to get pleasure, and I’m going to go to Hell for it but I don’t care.”

This is not true. Free will to do a sin just consists of doing it when you know it is wrong, even though you know it is wrong, because you choose to give your bodily impulses more attention than the safety of your soul.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

It’s not mentioned in the bible.

Neither is the bible.

 

[davidv]

I am interested. Are you suggesting that masturbation is ‘wrong’?

First, what is your answer on whether “normal” equals “right”?

 

[aprilfloyd]

First, what is your answer on whether “normal” equals “right”?

How are you defining ‘normal’ and how are you defining ‘right’?

 

[dshix]

How are you defining ‘normal’ and how are you defining ‘right’?

The poster means “normal” in the sense of how the world sees normal, and “right” as in how God placed the moral law.

 

[aprilfloyd]

The poster means “normal” in the sense of how the world sees normal, and “right” as in how God placed the moral law.

I assume by God you mean the Christian God.

Are you saying you think this God determined that masturbation was a moral issue?

 

[davidv]

How are you defining ‘normal’ and how are you defining ‘right’?

Since you used the word first, I want know what you mean when you use it.
“Right” equals “not wrong”. Standard dictionary definition.

1. in accordance with what is good, proper, or just: right conduct.
2. in conformity with fact, reason, truth, or some standard or principle; correct: the right solution; the right answer.

 

[aprilfloyd]

Since you used the word first, I want know what you mean when you use it.
“Right” equals “not wrong”. Standard dictionary definition.

I am happy with your definitions

 

[dshix]

I assume by God you mean the Christian God.

Are you saying you think this God determined that masturbation was a moral issue?

April,

I’ve been in quite a few discussions with you, dating back to when you first joined the forum. In this time, I’ve learned a few things about you.

1. Whenever you get stuck, you resort to asking rhetorical questions that are difficult to answer, and whether your opponent makes a good or bad answer, you keep asking questions in a way that gets the person completely mixed up after explaining things all over the map.
2. You already know me and my arguments. I have been in discussions with you concerning masturbation. You know exactly what I mean by “natural law” and “moral law” because I have explained both to you several times.
3. By these two points, I conclude that you know, for a fact, what God I am talking about, and you know exactly what the Catholic parameters around masturbation are, and you know the reasons for these parameters, and you also know why I and other Catholics consider these parameters true. You are a fallen away catholic yourself, so you know about it.

Given the points above, april, please don’t start making me chase you around the mulberry bush in an attempt to get your point of view.

 

[aprilfloyd]

April,

I’ve been in quite a few discussions with you, dating back to when you first joined the forum. In this time, I’ve learned a few things about you.

1. Whenever you get stuck, you resort to asking rhetorical questions that are difficult to answer, and whether your opponent makes a good or bad answer, you keep asking questions in a way that gets the person completely mixed up after explaining things all over the map.
2. You already know me and my arguments. I have been in discussions with you concerning masturbation. You know exactly what I mean by “natural law” and “moral law” because I have explained both to you several times.
3. By these two points, I conclude that you know, for a fact, what God I am talking about, and you know exactly what the Catholic parameters around masturbation are, and you know the reasons for these parameters, and you also know why I and other Catholics consider these parameters true. You are a fallen away catholic yourself, so you know about it.

Given the points above, april, please don’t start making me chase you around the mulberry bush in an attempt to get your point of view.

Hi (gets back up)

I understand the words you use and what you are saying, but can’t get my head around, why the Catholic Church would get involved with something so innocuous as masturbation and create such a conflagration. In any other walk of life, what people advise on this forum regarding masturbation, would be viewed with suspicion. Why someone who masturbates should discuss any issues they have with a priest escapes me and makes me suspect the priest in questions motives.

 

[dshix]

Hi (gets back up)

I understand the words you use and what you are saying, but can’t get my head around, why the Catholic Church would get involved with something so innocuous as masturbation and create such a conflagration. In any other walk of life, what people advise on this forum regarding masturbation, would be viewed with suspicion. Why someone who masturbates should discuss any issues they have with a priest escapes me and makes me suspect the priest in questions motives.

Ok, this is a legitimate concern. To answer why the Church gets involved in trying to stop masturbation, I’d say that they do it because have been commanded to by God’s law, the Ten Commandments. The sixth commandment speaks against adultery, but it also applies for all sins of a sexual nature.

To answer the question of how the Church knows it is right would take a whole other thread concerning the doctrine infallibility, why we believe it, and how it can be proven, which would take us to Jesus, in which case I’d have to explain the historical proof for his ministry and resurrection, and explain how all these things point to His divinity, and then we would be able to work our way back up the scale.

If you want to go there, we probably can’t do that in this thread. That’d take too long.

Concerning confession and the practice of taking our sins to a priest, that, again, cannot be answered without explaining many of the Church’s doctrines. I could go off on an explanation of the Sacraments, how they were instituted, and why they are true, but that, once again, is a whole other thread.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Hi (gets back up)

I understand the words you use and what you are saying, but can’t get my head around, why the Catholic Church would get involved with something so innocuous as masturbation and create such a conflagration. In any other walk of life, what people advise on this forum regarding masturbation, would be viewed with suspicion. Why someone who masturbates should discuss any issues they have with a priest escapes me and makes me suspect the priest in questions motives.

Spoken like a garden variety lapsed catholic. Why’d you leave anyway?

 

[aprilfloyd]

Ok, this is a legitimate concern. To answer why the Church gets involved in trying to stop masturbation, I’d say that they do it because have been commanded to by God’s law, the Ten Commandments. The sixth commandment speaks against adultery, but it also applies for all sins of a sexual nature.

To answer the question of how the Church knows it is right would take a whole other thread concerning the doctrine infallibility, why we believe it, and how it can be proven, which would take us to Jesus, in which case I’d have to explain the historical proof for his ministry and resurrection, and explain how all these things point to His divinity, and then we would be able to work our way back up the scale.

If you want to go there, we probably can’t do that in this thread. That’d take too long.

Concerning confession and the practice of taking our sins to a priest, that, again, cannot be answered without explaining many of the Church’s doctrines. I could go off on an explanation of the Sacraments, how they were instituted, and why they are true, but that, once again, is a whole other thread.

I appreciate that there is a wealth of information on the subject from the Church’s perspective, but sometimes we need to cut to the chase. The church does good work in terms of charity, but it needs to step back from pontificating on sexual matters. By all means people should be free to follow whichever belief system they desire, but ‘teaching’ masturbation is a sin, in the pejorative sense of the word is wrong, especially when dealing with young people.

 

[dshix]

The church does good work in terms of charity,** but it needs to step back from pontificating on sexual matters**. By all means people should be free to follow whichever belief system they desire, but** ‘teaching’ masturbation is a sin, in the pejorative sense of the word is wrong**, especially when dealing with young people.

Why?

 

[aprilfloyd]

Why?

With all due respect it is tantamount to abuse. Society is in danger of given tacit approval as there is still a tendency to not hold religion up to the standards expected in other walks of life and institutions, as it is often viewed that if behaviour is ‘religious’ then that is somehow OK. The many cases of abuse that have arisen and the subsequent cover ups show that the Catholic Church in this area is at best found wanting and at worst abusing it’s influence.

 

[dshix]

With all due respect it is tantamount to abuse. Society is in danger of given tacit approval as there is still a tendency to not hold religion up to the standards expected in other walks of life and institutions, as it is often viewed that if behaviour is ‘religious’ then that is somehow OK. The many cases of abuse that have arisen and the subsequent cover ups show that the Catholic Church in this area is at best found wanting and at worst abusing it’s influence.

Heh.

That’s your point of view. The Church sees how bad the effects of the sexual revolution was and is, and must combat these bad effects. You may consider it abuse, but the Church considers it it’s responsibility to slow down or stop the evils in the world (homosexuality, masturbation, fornication, abortion, cloning, etc) from destroying it.

You may think that the “sex abuse scandals” eliminate the Church’s credibility, but that is just a red herring. The only reason the scandals appear so big is because the media blows them up into something much greater than they already are, in an attempt to discredit religion. In reality, the percentage of priests who are sex abusers is far, far lower than any other profession, such as coaching or teaching.

The failures of some of the Church’s members do not discredit the Church itself.

 

[aprilfloyd]

Heh.

That’s your point of view. The Church sees how bad the effects of the sexual revolution was and is, and must combat these bad effects. You may consider it abuse, but the Church considers it it’s responsibility to slow down or stop the evils in the world (homosexuality, masturbation, fornication, abortion, cloning, etc) from destroying it.

You may think that the “sex abuse scandals” eliminate the Church’s credibility, but that is just a red herring. The only reason the scandals appear so big is because the media blows them up into something much greater than they already are, in an attempt to discredit religion. In reality, the percentage of priests who are sex abusers is far, far lower than any other profession, such as coaching or teaching.

The failures of some of the Church’s members do not discredit the Church itself.

I find the word ‘evil’ not useful in this context - It makes no sense to call homosexuality or masturbation evils. I really can’t see how the Catholic Church is anything other than bigoted in this context. If you replaced the word black for homosexual, you would surely see my point

 

[dshix]

I find the word ‘evil’ not useful in this context - It makes no sense to call homosexuality or masturbation evils. I really can’t see how the Catholic Church is anything other than bigoted in this context. If you replaced the word black for homosexual, you would surely see my point

But “evil” is the accurate word. Homosexual acts are intrinsically evil. Being black, however, is not evil, so it does not apply.

Another non-sequitur…

 

[aprilfloyd]

But “evil” is the accurate word. Homosexual acts are intrinsically evil. Being black, however, is not evil, so it does not apply.

Another non-sequitur…

With all due respect, that is so bigoted.