Masturbation & Contraception Part 1

[The_Theotokos]

Yes, that is definitely an ongoing problem.

Now, I’m curious, have you read Humanae Vitae, and do you find fault with it?

Have you read John Paul II’s Theology of the Body, and do you find fault with it?

What with your mention of “medieval” Church thinking and all, I just wonder if you are not busy jousting with tired old caricatures rather than actual Church teaching as it relates to the modern world.

It’s been a while since I have read both of those documents, but no, I cannot remember ever disagreeing with anything John Paul II had said. Like I mentioned before, my post may not represent it well, but I am actually a very conservative Catholic. But I have always had problems with the wording of the Catechism on masturbation and contraception (just those two issues really). And when I was reading on this forum that masturbation was a mortal sin and must be confessed before reception of the holy Eucharist, I became disturbed.

 

[The_Theotokos]

BTW, do you believe that the Sexual Revolution has been a good thing or a bad thing?

Some thinkers believe it to be one of the truly great disasters to befall the Western World. I’m inclined to agree with them.

I would agree that it has done far too much damage.

 

[VociMike]

Basing are actions upon what primates do and young infants does not follow proper philosophical or medical advice (i find your psychological explanations problematic). Primates’ and young infants’ (who are not using moral reason at this time) behaivor is not the gold standard of adult behaivor guided by reason and God’s grace. Young infants and primates can be violent toward others… we do not condone such action (though with them they are not mature, or in the case of the primates of the same nature) to make rational decisions.

Some primates even kill the young of other males. Shall we then reconsider infanticide as well?

 

[The_Theotokos]

Purely anecdotal, so take it or leave it, but as one formerly guilty of both, discovering the Church’s teaching has been great news, and getting in accord with it has turned my life and marriage around. I pray for all those who fed me the it’s-not-really-that-bad **** for so long. They are not doing anyone any favors.

I am truly happy that your experience with the Church’s teachings on these issues have been helpful. It would suggest that this is why they exist in the first place. My problem, however, is that condemning someone to mortal sin for committing such offenses usually does not result in the positive experience you just described.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Basing are actions upon what primates do and young infants does not follow proper philosophical or medical advice (i find your psychological explanations problematic). Primates’ and young infants’ (who are not using moral reason at this time) behaivor is not the gold standard of adult behaivor guided by reason and God’s grace. Young infants and primates can be violent toward others… we do not condone such action (though with them they are not mature, or in the case of the primates of the same nature) to make rational decisions.

Again, we are talking about actions that are committed against others versus actions that hurt no one. They should not be philosophically compared.

 

[The_Theotokos]

Some primates even kill the young of other males. Shall we then reconsider infanticide as well?

See my response above.

 

[VociMike]

I am truly happy that your experience with the Church’s teachings on these issues have been helpful. It would suggest that this is why they exist in the first place. My problem, however, is that condemning someone to mortal sin for committing such offenses usually does not result in the positive experience you just described.

I think we are now getting into a more fruitful line of discussion. There is a big problem with all the sexual sins today, which is that the teachings of society (it’s all OK, if not downright necessary) go so strongly against the teachings of the Church. That is where the tension comes in, and it behooves Catholics, including priests hearing confession, to be ready to explain why the Church teaches what she does, and why the secular world is, frankly, preaching a recipe for ongoing disaster. It does no good at all to simply condemn those who do not possess properly-formed consciences, and it probably does do real harm.

G.K. Chesterton writes at some length about how the Church, by standing for the same things down the ages, is always at odds with the current fashionable errors. This societal obsession with sex is one of the great fasionable errors of our times. I remember when I was young how those in the forefront of the Sexual Revolution would proclaim that if they just got their way, everybody would stop being “hung up” on sex. Well, they got their way, and everybody is a hundred times more hung up on sex then in the “bad old days”. What lies they told us (after first lying to themselves, I expect).

 

[VociMike]

Again, we are talking about actions that are committed against others versus actions that hurt no one. They should not be philosophically compared.

I can speak from experience that e.g. “private” masturbation does end up hurting others. It objectifies women (or men) in the eyes of the “actor”, and that objectification does damage relationships and lives down the line. It coursens the actor and his view of sex and of the opposite sex, and that effect can run deep.

If I am certain of anything at this point in my life, I am certain that there are no “victimless” sexual sins (unless, perhaps, one lives alone on a desert island).

 

[The_Theotokos]

I think we are now getting into a more fruitful line of discussion. There is a big problem with all the sexual sins today, which is that the teachings of society (it’s all OK, if not downright necessary) go so strongly against the teachings of the Church. That is where the tension comes in, and it behooves Catholics, including priests hearing confession, to be ready to explain why the Church teaches what she does, and why the secular world is, frankly, preaching a recipe for ongoing disaster. It does no good at all to simply condemn those who do not possess properly-formed consciences, and it probably does do real harm.

G.K. Chesterton writes at some length about how the Church, by standing for the same things down the ages, is always at odds with the current fashionable errors. This societal obsession with sex is one of the great fasionable errors of our times. I remember when I was young how those in the forefront of the Sexual Revolution would proclaim that if they just got their way, everybody would stop being “hung up” on sex. Well, they got their way, and everybody is a hundred times more hung up on sex then in the “bad old days”. What lies they told us (after first lying to themselves, I expect).

I could not have said it better myself.

 

[The_Theotokos]

I can speak from experience that e.g. “private” masturbation does end up hurting others. It objectifies women (or men) in the eyes of the “actor”, and that objectification does damage relationships and lives down the line. It coursens the actor and his view of sex and of the opposite sex, and that effect can run deep.

If I am certain of anything at this point in my life, I am certain that there are no “victimless” sexual sins.

I think I would need you to describe what you are saying in more detail, but if I am understanding you correctly, I would argue that our very sexual nature objectifies any experience into a pattern that defines future arousal. So I am not sure how this hurts anyone. But then again, I might not be clear on exactly what you mean.

 

[VociMike]

I think I would need you to describe what you are saying in more detail, but if I am understanding you correctly, I would argue that our very sexual nature objectifies any experience into a pattern that defines future arousal. So I am not sure how this hurts anyone. But then again, I might not be clear on exactly what you mean.

I mean that it leads to viewing women (in the case of heterosexual men) less and less as human beings and beloved children of God, and more and more as tools, things, objects for one’s own satisfaction. And furthermore, as disposable, interchangeable objects, to be acquired in the “sexual marketplace” for the lowest possible “price” and discarded on the slightest whim.

 

[The_Theotokos]

I mean that it leads to viewing women (in the case of heterosexual men) less and less as human beings and beloved children of God, and more and more as tools, things, objects for one’s own satisfaction. And furthermore, as disposable, interchangeable objects, to be acquired in the “sexual marketplace” for the lowest possible “price” and discarded on the slightest whim.

That is certainly a bastardization of a healthy sexual drive, but I do not believe it has to relate to masturbation, although it can, it doesn’t have to. I believe the sin here is really not so much the masturbation, but allowing oneself the freedom to indulge in the idea of using others as objects to be used for one’s personal gratification. Normal heterosexual intercourse carries the same dangers.

 

[VociMike]

That is certainly a bastardization of a healthy sexual drive, but I do not believe it has to relate to masturbation, although it can, it doesn’t have to. I believe the sin here is really not so much the masturbation, but allowing oneself the freedom to indulge in the idea of using others as objects to be used for one’s personal gratification. Normal heterosexual intercourse carries the same dangers.

What you call a “healthy sexual drive” is certainly polygamous, at least in males (in females too, I think). Our sexual biology, unfettered, is a disaster for human individuals and for human society. It is a sad result of our fallen nature, but we simply cannot deny this fact.

You’re quite right that heterosexual sex can also lead to objectification, most especially if multiple partners are involved. We are prone to foul up our sexuality in any case, but the damage caused is much less when society (and Church) are trying to keep things in check, rather then when society is pushing, egging, cajoling everybody into sexual irresponsibility of every sort.

It is within the guidelines of the Church that we have the best opportunity to bring our sexual natures into positive partnership with our entire humanity (natural and supernatural). Ignore the guidelines of the Church and it is almost guaranteed that pain and suffering, sin and degradation will follow.

 

[VociMike]

BTW, I once knew a family who had a little girl whom they loved and (usually) took good care of. One evening this girl crawled around the corner and somehow found a razor blade. Before long she crawled back, seemingly not in pain, but bleeding from a great many small cuts. Needless to say, the parents were horrified, especially at how much worse it could have been.

Anyway, I think of this little girl when I think of human sexuality. It is one of the sharpest blades in the human condition, and we will cut ourselves to pieces with it if we do not understand it and its place in human existence, and if we do not then conform ourselves to that understanding. The Church can provide that understanding, and can be a channel of God’s grace to assist us in conforming to that understanding. Modern society cannot provide either, and thus we live in a world of sliced-up, bleeding people.

 

[The_Theotokos]

What you call a “healthy sexual drive” is certainly polygamous, at least in males (in females too, I think). Our sexual biology, unfettered, is a disaster for human individuals and for human society. It is a sad result of our fallen nature, but we simply cannot deny this fact.

You’re quite right that heterosexual sex can also lead to objectification, most especially if multiple partners are involved. We are prone to foul up our sexuality in any case, but the damage caused is much less when society (and Church) are trying to keep things in check, rather then when society is pushing, egging, cajoling everybody into sexual irresponsibility of every sort.

It is within the guidelines of the Church that we have the best opportunity to bring our sexual natures into positive partnership with our entire humanity (natural and supernatural). Ignore the guidelines of the Church and it is almost guaranteed that pain and suffering, sin and degradation will follow.

Agreed! Guidelines of the perfect example or guidelines of the ideal spiritual condition should always be enforced by the Church in a spirit of loving-kindness with a focus on redemption. I take issue, however, with depravation of the Eucharist when such a person, a victim to a fallen nature, is struggling with guidelines that are being enforced as penalties.

Let me share this little story. About ten years ago my diocese accepted me into seminary. After a few weeks of having been there, I was invited by a group of seminarians to “pray the Rosary” together in one of the seminarian’s rooms. I agreed and met up with them later that evening for the prayer meeting, only to find that “praying the Rosary” meant a group masturbation party. Unfortunately, I didn’t take this as an opportunity to reform the Church and I left seminary later that week, leaving my vocation at the door as well. Now, what core sin is to blame for this experience? Is masturbation the reason this happened? Is homosexuality the problem? Do you see my point? While all of these sins did in fact contribute to the issue at hand, the immorality of these seminarian’s relationship to God, why they were in seminary, and their own inner psychological turmoil via a fallen nature was certainly the primary substance involved. Sin can use any vehicle for its continuance, especially scrupulosity. Fortunately, now that I am ten years older and a little stronger in faith, I am once again discerning my vocation to the sacred priesthood of the Catholic Church.

 

[The_Theotokos]

BTW, I once knew a family who had a little girl whom they loved and (usually) took good care of. One evening this girl crawled around the corner and somehow found a razor blade. Before long she crawled back, seemingly not in pain, but bleeding from a great many small cuts. Needless to say, the parents were horrified, especially at how much worse it could have been.

Anyway, I think of this little girl when I think of human sexuality. It is one of the sharpest blades in the human condition, and we will cut ourselves to pieces with it if we do not understand it and its place in human existence, and if we do not then conform ourselves to that understanding. The Church can provide that understanding, and can be a channel of God’s grace to assist us in conforming to that understanding. Modern society cannot provide either, and thus we live in a world of sliced-up, bleeding people.

That is a very good analogy and I agree with it. To continue the analogy further, my problem with what provoked my original post would be like rather than taking her to the doctor to be patched up, they just let her bleed and get infected because she was wrong and deserved what she had coming to her.

 

[Sina]

I accept that masturbation and contraception are gravely immoral. One poster pointed out that they are not automatically mortal sins, as they must “qualify” under the three conditions to be considered such.

What I also have a hard time accepting is what a common sin these are and how they can be difficult to overcome. I used to think that mortal sins were actually quite difficult to commit and were only committed occasionally by the most of us but this isn’t true. We are all sinners obviously. It’s not easy being a Catholic - but I never expected it to be. I don’t think I would be interested in a “religion” that changed it’s foundations and truths based on modern times… that is what is more important here isn’t it?

 

[Good_Daughter]

The scrupulosity that can occur in the mind of someone who has normal human sexual desire with no morally acceptable outlet can create a generalized anxiety condition that could lead to a lifetime of dysfunctional behavior. No spiritual progress can be made for such a person as they become so obsessive with their own behavior in relation to their own salvation.

No spiritual progress? How do you know?

 

[The_Theotokos]

I accept that masturbation and contraception are gravely immoral. One poster pointed out that they are not automatically mortal sins, as they must “qualify” under the three conditions to be considered such.

What I also have a hard time accepting is what a common sin these are and how they can be difficult to overcome. I used to think that mortal sins were actually quite difficult to commit and were only committed occasionally by the most of us but this isn’t true. We are all sinners obviously. It’s not easy being a Catholic - but I never expected it to be. I don’t think I would be interested in a “religion” that changed it’s foundations and truths based on modern times… that is what is more important here isn’t it?

Sina, and see for me, one of the truly beautiful aspects of the Catholic Church is that it allows itself the opportunity to maintain its ancient theological position (which will always be timeless) but also recognizes, at the same time, its need to discover further truth as the contemporary world changes. It used to be wonderful to have large immediate families in the ancient world when things like overpopulation and paying for college were not considerations as they are today. I think we might learn a lesson from China’s overpopulation and economic problems as an example of how dangerous this philosophy is in the modern era.

 

[The_Theotokos]

No spiritual progress? How do you know?

Good Daughter,

If you go back and read this entire thread again, you would see that I mentioned that I have worked with numerous Catholic clients in the past and have watched them struggle with the simple fact that for some people, scrupulosity supercedes spirituality. Do we attend Church because we wish to become obsessive about the number of sins we are committing, their severity, and their impact on our afterlife (which in my opinion are selfish reasons) or do we attend Church because we wish to be made perfect through union with Christ, redemption through Christ, and experience God? For me, being Catholic is the latter option with no contest. That is simply good theology. The former is not.