"masturbation is not a sin"

[snowfly]

Your thoughts? He seemed to give the impression that the entire Canadian church thinks this way (I know it doesn’t, I’ve had at least five good confessors who acknowledge the gravity of this sin). I should also point out that this confession took place in a Cathedral, the seat of the Archdiocese of Kingston. Every other experience I’ve had there was fully orthodox, but now I’m afraid to enter the confessional again just to be told I shouldn’t be there.

I was told by a Priest that it was ok to use condoms, and this advice in the Confessional, I’m glad I was Catechized at a young age and didn’t follow his advice, and this advice your getting is wrong too.

When doctors differ patients die, he should be checked on it, and try and find out who’s hearing Confession first.

And I hope you don’t have to confess that sin too often.

 

[MMLJ]

Now I’m even more worried about the effect this priest is having: the cathedral just shortened confession from 2 hours to 1 hour on Saturday (daily confession remains before 12:10 p.m. Mass).

I hope this isn’t because people are being told mortal sin is rare. The lines for confession have always been very long, and now I’m very fearful that this priest is driving people away from this sacrament.

It is just this type of Propaganda within the Catholic Church that is tearing at the Fabric of Catholicism. Great prayers are in order and this priest must be monitored and corrected. If this is not possible he should be suspended indefinitely because masturbation is a sin and to say mortal sin is rare is heresy.

It is easy if we just look to what the Catholic Church says on this topic:

PERSONA HUMANA
(newadvent.org/library/docs_df75se.htm)

Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics
Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
December 29, 1975
**
IX **
The traditional Catholic doctrine that masturbation constitutes a grave moral disorder is often called into doubt or expressly denied today…This opinion is contradictory to the teaching and pastoral practice of the Catholic Church. Whatever the force of certain arguments of a biological and philosophical nature, which have sometimes been used by theologians, in fact both the Magisterium of the Church–in the course of a constant tradition-- and the moral sense of the faithful have declared without hesitation that masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act.[19] The main reason is that, whatever the motive for acting this way, the deliberate use of the sexual faculty outside normal conjugal relations essentially contradicts the finality of the faculty. For it lacks the sexual relationship called for by the moral order, namely the relationship which realizes “the full sense of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love.”[20] All deliberate exercise of sexuality must be reserved to this regular relationship. Even if it cannot be proved that Scripture condemns this sin by name,** the tradition of the Church has rightly understood it to be condemned in the New Testament when the latter speaks of “impurity,” “unchasteness” and other vices contrary to chastity and continence.
(newadvent.org/library/docs_df75se.htm)

IN SUMMARY: IT IS A SIN.
I understand this may be difficult for some, but you must Unlearn what you have unfortunately learned, provided of course you were MISLED by a priest,nun, teacher, catholic, or whoever, that masturbation is not sinful. The Magisterium of the Church, Tradition, and pure common sense tells all of us otherwise.

 

[MMLJ]

(continued from post #60)
Also:

The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas (I-II, Q77 A5)

PRIMA SECUNDÆ PARTIS.(=I-II)
Vice and Sin
Question 77: The Cause of Sin,on the part of the sensitive appetite
Article 5 Whether concupiscence of the flesh, concupiscence of the eyes, and pride of life are fittingly described as causes of sin?

On the contrary, It is written (1 John 2:16): “All that is in the world is concupiscence of the flesh, or [Vulgate: ‘and’] pride of life.” Now a thing is said to be “in the world” by reason of sin: wherefore it is written (1 John 5:19): “The whole world is seated in wickedness.” Therefore these three are causes of sin.
newadvent.org/summa/2077.htm (The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas
Second and Revised Edition, 1920)

Once again, according to a Doctor of the Church, St Thomas Aquinas, it is a SIN.

Also see the vatican website for **PERSONA HUMANA **:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19751229_persona-humana_en.html

 

[Keikiolu]

I went to confession about half an hour ago and I’m still upset by the experience.

I went to confess the sin of masturbation. It’s not something I would normally discuss on these forums, but what the priest said after I confessed disturbed me deeply. Here are some of his words as best I can remember them:

“I went on sabbatical recently and consulted with other priests about masturbation, to discover its status as a sin. The view of masturbation has changed dramatically. It’s very different from what I was taught in seminary many years ago. We just don’t talk about masturbation anymore. It’s part of human nature, and people cannot be held responsible for acting according to their nature. The church’s position on this changed after Vatican II. We now know that mortal sin is extremely rare. To commit a mortal sin, you have to genuinely hate God. Virtually no one commits mortal sin.”

I was extremely upset, and was sorely tempted to respond along the lines of:

“So if it’s alright to act according to my nature, can I just have sex with anyone I feel lust for? Or is an act of conjugal love outside of marriage unacceptable while a selfish act of masturbation outside of marriage is acceptable? That doesn’t make a lick of sense. If we go this far down this modernist road of ‘God doesn’t care what you do with your genitalia’, we may as well throw out the church’s entire moral teaching on sexuality. If our actions are justified by ‘our natures’, who needs God?”

Instead, I responded:

“I will continue to view this act as a mortal sin, with all respect.”

The priest then quickly gave me absolution (no act of contrition). I said “thank you, father” and left.

Your thoughts? He seemed to give the impression that the entire Canadian church thinks this way (I know it doesn’t, I’ve had at least five good confessors who acknowledge the gravity of this sin). I should also point out that this confession took place in a Cathedral, the seat of the Archdiocese of Kingston. Every other experience I’ve had there was fully orthodox, but now I’m afraid to enter the confessional again just to be told I shouldn’t be there.

Canadia,… I have to REALLY wonder about that odd place.

The Church is not the PEOPLE of the Church, with their very weird ways, but is THE CHURCH.

…stick to the official docs, and let the wacky people who don’t have much discernment to speak of, aparently, wallow about in their confusion, hoping and praying that they’ll buy a vowel, if you know what I mean.

Best to 'ya.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Linnyo]

Now I’m even more worried about the effect this priest is having: the cathedral just shortened confession from 2 hours to 1 hour on Saturday (daily confession remains before 12:10 p.m. Mass).

I hope this isn’t because people are being told mortal sin is rare. The lines for confession have always been very long, and now I’m very fearful that this priest is driving people away from this sacrament.

Wow, I wish we had such opportunities for confession. There is confession weekly on saturday mornings for an hour if it isn’t cancelled. I went on saturday there and the church was locked.

 

[BobP123]

Another thing you might hear this priest say if you show him the catechism reference is that the CCC says masturbation is a “disordered act” not a sin.

So it’s either a sin or you’re mentally sick for forming the habit. Either way it doesn’t seem one is worthy of receiving the Body and Blood of Christ unless he confesses it. And if the priest says it is not a sin, ask for forgiveness anyway; you didn’t go to confession to argue with the priest. He still has the power to forgive anything you confess.

 

[Sir_Knight]

This should resolve the matter …
" … for these (the sins that I have already confessed, if, indeed they are sins)* and for any other sins that stand in the eyes of God, I ask for penance and absolution … "

 

[Yerusalyim]

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

Out of all the posters who quoted CCC 2352 only ONE included this bit…why is that?

Not a sin? Hard to buy…depending on your circumstances…perhaps not your greatest worry.

 

[Transformer]

Out of all the posters who quoted CCC 2352 only ONE included this bit…why is that?

Not a sin? Hard to buy…depending on your circumstances…perhaps not your greatest worry.

I would guess that it wasn’t quoted because of the number of times the whole passage has been quoted on this forum; I can’t imagine anyone familiar with this board who isn’t also familiar with basic catechetics on mortal sin and culpability. The passage was, of course, referenced and alluded to by several posters.

Be careful of the way in which you describe lessened culpability. If something has the potential to be a mortal sin, that is because it is gravely evil, and being less responsible for that act doesn’t make it any less evil. An act constituting grave matter isn’t any less of an evil attrocity when the sinner is less than fully responsible for it. The act also isn’t any less destructive (except in-as-far-as it doesn’t completely cut off the individual from sanctifying grace).

The point is, gravely evil acts should always be a “great worry” for a dedicated Christian, even if that Christian isn’t fully culpable for them and isn’t cut off from God. That applies just as fully to masturbation as to any other gravely evil act. I have seen this tendency again and again to tell someone who struggles with masturbation “It sounds like psychological factors or force of habit is lessening your culpability for your sin. So, don’t worry about it too much.” WORRY ABOUT IT! It is gravely evil! It is destroying your ability to love through your sexuality, full responsibility or not! We do Christians a grave disservice when we tell them not to worry too greatly about a grave evil in their life; they deserve the best chance they can get to eliminate it.

God bless.

 

[Montie_Claunch]

Are you allowed to go to the Bishop with this? Or is it “what stays in the confessional stays in the confessional.” I have never had any such experience in any of the Calgary parishes.

.

I know that the Priest in never allowed to reveal what he heard in confession (The whole seal of confession thing) so if the Bishop were to talk to him it would be a bit of a one sided conversation. The non-priest particpant in confession on the other hand may speak of a confession as much or as little as the please.

 

[mercygate]

I would guess that it wasn’t quoted because of the number of times the whole passage has been quoted on this forum; I can’t imagine anyone familiar with this board who isn’t also familiar with basic catechetics on mortal sin and culpability. The passage was, of course, referenced and alluded to by several posters.

Be careful of the way in which you describe lessened culpability. If something has the potential to be a mortal sin, that is because it is gravely evil, and being less responsible for that act doesn’t make it any less evil. An act constituting grave matter isn’t any less of an evil attrocity when the sinner is less than fully responsible for it. The act also isn’t any less destructive (except in-as-far-as it doesn’t completely cut off the individual from sanctifying grace).

The point is, gravely evil acts should always be a “great worry” for a dedicated Christian, even if that Christian isn’t fully culpable for them and isn’t cut off from God. That applies just as fully to masturbation as to any other gravely evil act. I have seen this tendency again and again to tell someone who struggles with masturbation “It sounds like psychological factors or force of habit is lessening your culpability for your sin. So, don’t worry about it too much.” WORRY ABOUT IT! It is gravely evil! It is destroying your ability to love through your sexuality, full responsibility or not! We do Christians a grave disservice when we tell them not to worry too greatly about a grave evil in their life; they deserve the best chance they can get to eliminate it.
God bless.

[sign]:clapping:[/sign]WHY is that so HARD for people to understand? I can kind of cut priests a little slack because in their pastoral judgment, they might not wish to burden someone with tendencies to scrupulosity (which is more common than us hard-heads tend to believe). Still: what part of ‘THIS IS INTRINSICALLY EVIL AND THEREFORE DANGEROUS’ do people fail to grasp.? :banghead:

 

[Dauphin]

I finally received a response. It said simply that my message had been forwarded to the Archbishop and to the Vicar General and Chancellor of the archdiocese.

Hopefully I’ll get a full response soon.

 

[Dauphin]

I’ve received a VERY GOOD response from the Vicar General.

He relayed to me the message that the Archbishop wants to assure me that the issue is being dealt with. The Archbishop intends to speak with the priests at the Cathedral to ensure that they “accurately reflect the teaching of the church in all situations”, and to remind them that the teaching of the church “is not open to personal opinion”. :extrahappy:

(The Vicar General replied to me because the Archbishop is out of the office for a few days)

I’m very pleased with the response. I think I’ve made a real difference.

 

[mercygate]

I’ve received a VERY GOOD response from the Vicar General.

He relayed to me the message that the Archbishop wants to assure me that the issue is being dealt with. The Archbishop intends to speak with the priests at the Cathedral to ensure that they “accurately reflect the teaching of the church in all situations”, and to remind them that the teaching of the church “is not open to personal opinion”. :extrahappy:

(The Vicar General replied to me because the Archbishop is out of the office for a few days)

I’m very pleased with the response. I think I’ve made a real difference.

Frankly, that is WAY more than I would have expected or hoped for.

I hope you HAVE made a difference. But in my experience, thos who are sidestepping the Magisterium now will continue to do so, no matter what the Bishop says (just as they have done with Redemptionis sacramentum). Nevertheless YOU have done what you could do and the Bishop will do what HE can do, and that is all you CAN do!

 

[Yerusalyim]

Transformer,

I would guess that it wasn’t quoted because of the number of times the whole passage has been quoted on this forum; I can’t imagine anyone familiar with this board who isn’t also familiar with basic catechetics on mortal sin and culpability. The passage was, of course, referenced and alluded to by several posters.

Your statement makes the presumption that the OP is aware of the entire passage from the CCC…I don’t feel comfortable making such an assumption. Being familiar with this board and the amount of scrupulocity I’ve seen from posters and with posters throwing around the term “mortal sin” without much qualification, I thought it important to mention the remainder of the passage.

One further correction, masturbation is termed intrinsically and gravely DISORDERED, which is a different word than EVIL. I have no idea where the OP is at RE: Cupability…the OP confessed and the priest presumably granted absolution even if (incorrectly) dismissing masturbation as not sinful.

 

[Brooklyn]

I’ve received a VERY GOOD response from the Vicar General.

He relayed to me the message that the Archbishop wants to assure me that the issue is being dealt with. The Archbishop intends to speak with the priests at the Cathedral to ensure that they “accurately reflect the teaching of the church in all situations”, and to remind them that the teaching of the church “is not open to personal opinion”. :extrahappy:

(The Vicar General replied to me because the Archbishop is out of the office for a few days)

I’m very pleased with the response. I think I’ve made a real difference.

That is absolutely wonderful. I think there are a lot of maverick priests who need to be drawn back into the fold. Hopefully this is what will happen in this case.

Mary

 

[fix]

One further correction, masturbation is termed intrinsically and gravely DISORDERED, which is a different word than EVIL.

But the distinction is not really significant. That particular act is never morally good or neutral. It is always wrong regardless of individual culpability.

 

[mercygate]

But the distinction is not really significant. That particular act is never morally good or neutral. It is always wrong regardless of individual culpability.

Picky, picky, picky!

 

[Transformer]

One further correction, masturbation is termed intrinsically and gravely DISORDERED, which is a different word than EVIL. I have no idea where the OP is at RE: Cupability…the OP confessed and the priest presumably granted absolution even if (incorrectly) dismissing masturbation as not sinful.

The catechism tries to incorporate a lot of theological nuance into relatively objective doctrinal statements. I’m not a moral theologian, so I’m not honestly sure exactly why the writers chose “disordered” rather than “evil” or “objectively wrong” (though I’m sure there is a valid reason).

However, masturbation is not merely disordered in the same way that, for instance, same-sex attractions are, or an emotional inclination towards jealousy, or towards gluttony is. Those disorders are a deviation from God’s intention and will eventually be rectified, it’s true, but it is sometimes appropriate to simply live with them and love in spite of them, and they are inclinations that don’t result directly from human choices, not destructive human acts.

Masturbation is different; it is an action, a direct result of human freedom. It is incredibly destructive to oneself, as it is the exact opposite of the self-sacrificial love for which God designed sex. It is, unequivocally and undeniably, evil, whether the writers of the catechism chose that particular word or not, and a Christian has no business telling another Christian simply “not to worry too much about it,” regardless of culpability.

God bless.

 

[Julian_Peters]

Thank you to all who have participated. This thread is now closed.