Masturbation...why?

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I’m leaving the harm to the soul apart from this, as it seems that you want to know the “tangible” (quantifiable, measurable, study-able, existential…) harm.

It always start with trivialization - this, by itself, is dangerous.

It is one act, seemingly inoffensive, that we will say “It hurts no one”. What we don’t see is the harm this idea causes to the act of sex as a whole, but we will get there. Moving on.

The couple decides to do some other different things as well. What harm is there in some other practices, after all? There are many a couple can do, with no added harm. At first, they are open to life, finishing the act as it is supposed to; the new activities are only adding some spice to the relationship.

Then, an accident: this one time the man can’t finish in the proper place.

We can discuss philosophy here: did he sin? Didn’t he? He had the intention of finishing in the way that was open to life, after all. Was the act sinful? Wasn’t it?

See how blurred the line already is? How confusing it got?

As it was an accident, he is not responsible by the result…

Or IS he??

After all, he knew the risks. He knew there was a chance he wouldn’t be able to do it right. He sinned not by “missing the shot”, but by putting himself, time and time again in a situation of RISK. That alone is already a sin.

Say, if I were to play Russian Roulette. Even if I don’t shoot myself, I am consciously choosing to put myself at risk, just for the thrills.

Another point by which both are harming themselves: what if they find out they prefer other activities?

He simply loves oral sex, while she finds it demeaning. He might get addicted to that which, while “inoffensive” enough, will be harmful to their relationship.

She might decide that, since other - BETTER - options are open, penetration can be left out. She feels uncomfortable (it happens, many do), and doesn’t want to do it, so both decide to leave that out for now.

When they decide to have babies, she will do it with reluctance, he will do it halfheartedly, if at all; instead of working out their problems with “copulation”, finding out how to better THAT practice, they were too busy having fun. Now, having babies is a chore.

And it all started with a small exception, a dismissing of what sex really is about. Now we have a confused couple, that doesn’t understand when all went wrong. She doesn’t understand why she can’t make him as pleased with anything other than oral sex; he doesn’t understand why she hesitates when he wants to try vaginal sex.

Seems a bit over the top, right? “As if all this would happen!”.

Fact is, many already have this mentality, many are already corrupted by the “trivialization” up there in orange, and many already suffer with all this confusion. So many couples need therapy because “sex life turned boring” (translating: we think sex is about fun, we want MORE fun!) or “he/she won’t do what I like” (translating: sex is about me; pleasure ME!). Most of the ‘options’ (oral, anal, etc) are so self-centered in one of the partners that people have difficulty balancing their ‘times’, of pleasuring their partners. Again, instead of making the one unitive act pleasurable to both, they waste their time practicing acts that focuses on one person more than the other…

TL;dr: trivializing is bad. It makes you think something (sex) is harmless, making you use it carelessly. You end up forgetting what sex is about, redefining its purpose and getting confused in the process. (just like the USA did with the word “marriage” recently)
I have never ever heard of these horrible consequences. Oral sex is also male to female and a couple can engage in both types at same time so it doesnt have to be about focusing only on one partner. Sex is not just for procreation. It is a biological need that was implanted in us. In other animals sex is literally only used for procreation and they only engage in sex in those specific mating periods but higher other mammals such as bonobos and dolphins. A comprehensive sexual study on humans revealed we can engage in literally any type of sexual society and have! Some tribes use sex like the bonobos meaning they use it for bounding with friends, asking for forgiveness and social harmony. The sex being boring situation has more to do with a culture that believes sex has to be like porn(see I don’t really think porn is great) and people need to learn that sex should become deeper over time. Passion does die but other deeper reasons can and should replace it.
 
**The sex being boring situation has more to do with a culture that believes sex has to be like porn **and people need to learn that sex should become deeper over time.
And you know how they got to that conclusion? They trivialized sex. Reduced it to less than half of what it actually is.

Those conclusions of our society don’t come from nothing. They usually start with an unanswered: “what is the harm in doing this?”
 
And you know how they got to that conclusion? They trivialized sex. Reduced it to less than half of what it actually is.

Those conclusions of our society don’t come from nothing. They usually start with an unanswered: “what is the harm in doing this?”
Hmm I don’t agree. For a very long time only men could receive pleasure from sex and women had to just take it. Thankfully this has changed. The abuse of sex(chronic porn viewing etc) doesnt mean that only missionary position is acceptable.
 
Hmm I don’t agree. For a very long time only men could receive pleasure from sex and women had to just take it. Thankfully this has changed. The abuse of sex(chronic porn viewing etc) doesnt mean that only missionary position is acceptable.
No now there is a rampant rise in lesbianism among women. Why need men for pleasure/sex?
 
No now there is a rampant rise in lesbianism among women. Why need men for pleasure/sex?
What makes you think that there has been a rise in the number of lesbians? There probably aren’t any more, but before, all the lesbians just had to pretend that they actually liked having sex with their husbands.
 
What makes you think that there has been a rise in the number of lesbians? There probably aren’t any more, but before, all the lesbians just had to pretend that they actually liked having sex with their husbands.
Did all women experiencing SSA marry (on false pretences)? Or perhaps some remained single?
 
If animals have a set programming, then why did God program them to do things like masturbate and sometimes engage in same-sex activity? If these are bad things, then shouldn’t God have given them a different program?
 
Of course you would be horrified if your wife did that, as I would I. We have been socially conditioned in a different manner. I believe in Jesus but I don’t believe the bible word for word and I believe that many of passages have been taken out of historical context. Also, no human sacrifices are bad because we are depriving someone of their right to live. Not all of urges are bad and it can be destructive to suppress them and have an unhealthy relationship with them. There a so many people in therapy because they can’t physically enjoy sex due to guilt and shame, even if married!
 
I doubt that many Episcopal pastors or pastors in a number of other Mainline Protestant churches would consider masturbation to be a sin.
 
I doubt that many Episcopal pastors or pastors in a number of other Mainline Protestant churches would consider masturbation to be a sin.
Masturbation can be a sin if it distracts you from doing other things like serving God but if it doesnt then generally it isn’t considered a sin. Episcopalians focus on the essentials for salvation. So yes you are right 🙂
 
I think there’s confusion about what is meant by natural law. It’s not what goes on in the rest of nature. How turtles have sex or how bonobos masturbate has no bearing on the issue. Sex exists for procreation. We have derived many other wonderful goods from sex, but we have our parts and our urges to encourage procreation. That’s the natural order of things. The highest good that can come from sex is children. Man and woman become one flesh, and what proceeds from their love is a child. The human family mirrors the Trinity in this way.

Again, there are other goods sex provides. Pleasure. Social bonding. Intimacy. These are all great. These are all things we should enjoy. But these are not reasons in themselves. They point towards that highest good, the union that can generate new life, which is why sex exists whether or not you’re religious. An atheist will point out that sex evolved due to procreation and creating diversity in new individuals. The union of male and female is the ultimate, natural purpose of sex.

God created man and woman so that they can be one flesh, so that I’m union they are more in God’s image (multiple persons, one God) than they are apart.

Masturbation (as an end in itself, not foreplay) is a misuse of our faculties, it’s against the natural purpose of why we have these parts and and the associated pleasure. And it’s a vice that encourages impurity within ourselves and the objectifying of other persons.

And full disclosure, I used to think nothing of it, and engaged in it very, very frequently. It was a very big weakness of mine. But now, by God’s grace since returning to the Church I’ve been able to resist the urge, and I hope that, by God’s grace, I will continue to do so.
 
I think you overlook at all the disgusting things we humans do such as destroy the planet, kill innocents, engage in mass warfare etc. Is it so wrong for me to think that the men who interpret God’s will got it wrong sometimes? Shouldn’t out knowledge of science influence Church teaching?
 
Some humans are predisposed towards other temptations far more grave than masturbation, but that doesn’t make the fulfillment of those temptations good or even neutral. Saying that people are born with urges to masturbate is a very poor justification for thinking it’s okay.

It’s concupiscence. We all struggle with our urges. We were born this way. Our passions and will are disordered because of original sin.

newadvent.org/cathen/04208a.htm
 
Even if there wasn’t a Fall, an animal masturbating wouldn’t be an objectively evil thing. Animals are not theologically rational creatures or possess immortal souls. There is no evil in them blindly following their bodily instincts because their bodily instincts are all that they have. Animals possess a natural goodness, not a supernatural one.

The human person is a visible image of the invisible God, so what is and isn’t acceptable for them is radically different from what is acceptable in an animal. Humans are not merely invited, but demanded, to have a love that is sacrificial.
 
If animals have a set programming, then why did God program them to do things like masturbate and sometimes engage in same-sex activity? If these are bad things, then shouldn’t God have given them a different program?
God does not create a law for animals to live up to. There is no judgement day for animals. What animals do is not a sure guide to guide us in behaving morally.
 
I think you overlook at all the disgusting things we humans do such as destroy the planet, kill innocents, engage in mass warfare etc. Is it so wrong for me to think that the men who interpret God’s will got it wrong sometimes? Shouldn’t out knowledge of science influence Church teaching?
Yes, humans do and seem disposed towards doing a lot of disgusting things. That doesn’t make them moral.

And the Church doesn’t teach science. And science doesn’t teach morality.

Now, arguing about the authority of the Church… As a Catholic, yes your rejection of the Church being guarded by the Holy Spirit when proclaiming infallible doctrine is “so wrong” from our POV, but you’re no longer Catholic, and that’s another debate entirely, and should probably go in a different thread on the main apologetics board. And we’re not arguing a “because the Church said so” point only, anyway.
 
Masturbation can be a sin if it distracts you from doing other things like serving God…
Again, you state a consequentialist view of the world. You love the Catholic Church (you have told us) but eschew its most basic principles, never mind its specific teachings.

By your measure above, one could conclude just about anything is a sin - or just about nothing.
 
If animals have a set programming, then why did God program them to do things like masturbate and sometimes engage in same-sex activity? If these are bad things, then shouldn’t God have given them a different program?
Animals have no soul (this coming from someone who cares for cats since I was 4yo).

They see something gives pleasure, they keep doing it to get pleasure. My cat loves food - if I leave it out, she’ll eat until she’s… fatter. (she’s currently “chubby”)

Me, on the other hand, am a rational being: I know getting fat isn’t good for her, so I control her food intake (nah… I’ll admit to some negligence here). As I also control her sexual urges (by neutering her, separating brothers and sisters during heat periods, etc).

I can’t speak for God (neither do I question His decisions), but I hardly see why would He bother with those things. Animals can’t have morality, its not in their nature**.

** (I meant to say: since animals can’t differentiate right from wrong, they can’t make a conscious choice for good. This is an exclusively human characteristic - free will. Animals have no free will, and since they can’t “choose” to do wrong, they can’t sin)
 
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