Masturbation without lust

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Fighting what appears to be a natural form of sexual release for those with no other form of sexual release could cause more severe problems, while engaging in this act as a natural release could indeed keep one from committing a notable sin, or even a crime.
Such is a gravely disordered act.

The end of avoiding one gravely disordered act does not justify the means of engaging in another gravely disordered act. The end does not justify the means.

Shall a person with serious anger issues - take it out on his wifes face so as to avoid shooting his boss?

No.

He needs to seek good ways of working against the disordered impulses. Good and only good.
 
Tis not a question of rules. But of truth and love.

And this is not open to change - just as murder is not open to change. They are both gravely sinful actions.

Is it intolerant to inform a person who asks if murder is gravely sinful -that murder is indeed gravely sinful?

It would be contrary to love to say it is* not* gravely sinful.

One is not discussing here a fault but gravely sinful actions. Gravely harmful to the person who does them.

There is tons of counsel etc on these threads and on CA on this subject.
Murder and masturbation? Really? This comparison is woefully disproportionate my friend, I’m sorry, I cant agree with this based on that alone. I understand this is a method to teach that crime is crime no matter the proportions, but we all know that’s not reality, this is why some crimes or sins are known as mortal, or felony and others are noted as minor offences. I do how ever appreciate your sense of grandeur.
 
Murder and masturbation? Really? This comparison is woefully disproportionate my friendr.
Yes really. Grave sin is grave sin -it self murders the life of the soul. The person severs his friendship with God.

Yes all grave sins are very serious matters. Very serious indeed and can yes be used to explain one another. Even if one is worse than the other.

Is murder worse than grave theft? -yes one could say so- but by both the person kills the life of their soul. A terrible act against themselves.

Masturbation is yes a gravely sinful action (not a venial -light matter -but serious).

(granted there can mitigating aspects -but we are not discussing such - but the thing itself).
 
Such is a gravely disordered act.

The end of avoiding one gravely disordered act does not justify the means of engaging in another gravely disordered act. The end does not justify the means.

Shall a person with serious anger issues - take it out on his wifes face so as to avoid shooting his boss?

No.

He needs to seek good ways of working against the disordered impulses. Good and only good.
Again, extremely Dis-proportionate, beating ones wife in the face? really? How about the use of anti-depressants, or pain management medications which are illegal when used without RX? This is simply tolerance for one that assist in negating another. Suicide is according to the church an un-redeemable sin, while anti-depressants can keep one from committing such an act. The struggle with sex issues has caused many unspeakable crimes, even within the church its self.
 
Yes really. Grave sin is grave sin -it self murders the life of the soul. The person severs his friendship with God.

Yes all grave sins are very serious matters. Very serious indeed and can yes be used to explain one another. Even if one is worse than the other.

Is murder worse than grave theft? -yes one could say so- but by both the person kills the life of their soul. A terrible act against themselves.

Masturbation is yes a gravely sinful action (not a venial -light matter -but serious).

(granted there can mitigating aspects -but we are not discussing such - but the thing itself).
mitigating aspects
I thought that’s exactly what we were discussing?
 
Again, extremely Dis-proportionate, beating ones wife in the face? really? How about the use of anti-depressants, or pain management medications which are illegal when used without RX? This is simply tolerance for one that assist in negating another. Suicide is according to the church an un-redeemable sin, while anti-depressants can keep one from committing such an act. The struggle with sex issues has caused many unspeakable crimes, even within the church its self.
It is an approach in seeking to make an argument clear to use such like examples. I use murder all the time.

As I noted the end does not justify the means (read St. Paul in Sacred Scripture, read the Catechism.) There is no question here.

No one is urging that masturbation be made a crime here. We are simply answering the question.

And that question now has been answered with the Teaching of the Church -who Teaches by Authority of Christ (who was also quite serious about the seriousness of looking lustfully)- (tis a Catholic Answers Moral Theology forum)- so I do not see any further reason to continue the thread.
 
It is an approach in seeking to make an argument clear to use such like examples. I use murder all the time.

As I noted the end does not justify the means (read St. Paul in Sacred Scripture, read the Catechism.) There is no question here.

No one is urging that masturbation be made a crime here. We are simply answering the question.

And that question now has been answered with the Teaching of the Church -who Teaches by Authority of Christ (who was also quite serious about the seriousness of looking lustfully)- (tis a Catholic Answers Moral Theology forum)- so I do not see any further reason to continue the thread.
Well when you cant win with reason and logic there is always the god gun, right? LOL! Your right about one thing though, its not worth discussing any longer. I could say many things about hypocrisy and what’s really going on in most peoples lives in direct contrast to the advise or commands being pushed here in a world away forum, but I wont. :cool:
 
Well when you cant win with reason and logic there is always the god gun, right?
A this is a Catholic Answers Moral Theology forum…

In any case I bid you great joy …

I must be about other things (well I will post two more things for the moment)

And such is not contrary to reason or logic - Jesus of Nazareth is the Logos.

“In the opening words of his Gospel, Saint John sums up the essential meaning of that account in this single statement: “In the beginning was the Word”. In effect, the creation account that we listened to earlier is characterized by the regularly recurring phrase: “And God said …” The world is a product of the Word, of the Logos, as Saint John expresses it, using a key term from the Greek language. “Logos” means “reason”, “sense”, “word”…”

~Pope Benedict XVI 23 April 2010 Homily
 
Ok, back to the topic, the reason I believe masturbation is not some grave sin unto death as portrayed by many here…
The word “grave” here can have many different meanings here, and it’s a bit hard to know which you mean. “Grave” can be synonymous with “serious,” in layman’s terms. But it can mean, specifically, grave matter (sufficient to potentially damn one to hell), and also “grave sin” as opposed to “grave matter” in some church documents in the sense, that is definitely morally damning. Perhaps you can clarify since the ambiguity handicaps me.
the act in itself does not hurt anyone if its done in the privacy of ones home.
I mentioned to you earlier about the anecdotes of grieved wives and girlfriends about which you can find on the internet. Did you want to ignore them, disbelieve them, or restrict our conversation to those masturbators who do not have either? I also mentioned the enormous sexual slave trade which is fundamentally driven by pornography, and seems fair game to lay also at the doorstep of masturbation. In reply to another poster, not you, I also mentioned associated intrinsic risks like chaffing, being unable to perform sexually within marriage, and unknown risks of cancer and brain chemical imbalances. For many people, masturbation and pronography leads to greater depravaties. For a beginning masturbator, how does he know which kind he will turn out to be?
Fighting what appears to be a natural form of sexual release
You can cite to animals or aboriginals that might self-stimulate, I can point out that “natural” stimulation seems to be oriented to procreation and bonding. Given that the latter cases are perhaps millions of times more common, and the reason we exist (propagation of the species), I’m not convinced that relying on a “natural law” argument is in your best interest. But I’ll let you decide.
engaging in this act as a natural release could indeed keep one from committing a notable sin, or even a crime.
Robbing a bank with a fake gun that couldn’t possibly hurt someone is noble of the criminal, but still to be rejected as sinful. Yes, if someone is so enslaved to their lusts, that they feel they have no other alternative to rape or sexual assault than to masturbate, I would certainly appreciate their first steps to mitigate the damages, but the nature of their chosen act remains immoral. I think that American society is even wise here not to prosecute the act of masturbation as criminal, even if it would be possible to pass a law forbidding the immoral practice. It is a serious act, but the effects are moderate and more remote compared to other more reprehensible criminal activity.
Say the crime of rape, I believe this issue is fully entangled with the very controversial celibacy issues the church must constantly deal with, if some one feels condemned no matter what they do it brings on a sense of helplessness and hopelessness…
The Church didn’t make masturbation a sin (malum prohibitum). It is a sin by its nature (malum in se), the church is just trying to help the masturbator to understand this. It seems like you take the Church to be a bunch of out-of-touch clergy and their groupies doling out nonsensical “thou-shalt-nots.” This is not the primary function of the Church. The Church is a church of the “yes.” It proclaims the good news that you do not have to be a slave to your passions, that you can have freedom. It teaches Love, whether abstract or personalized in a Trinitarian God, and asks all people, for their own sake, to turn away from inward activities (like masturbation, but also worse or even more neutral activities) and do loving acts and think loving prayers of our neighbors. It wants us all to conform ourselves to this perfect Love, dying to ourselves and our passions. Properly understood, if you love as the Church teaches, you would have no time or interest in masturbation; it wouldn’t even cross your mind once you become advanced enough. Sure, the Church declares certain activities to be sins since people aren’t fully ready for that message yet and would otherwise chase such futilities, but it would rather teach Jesus’s message of love. St. Augustine says, “Love and do what you will.” The Church tries, but we are not perfect people. Jesus says that his grace is sufficient for you, he will not give you a burden (such as addiction to masturbation) that is too heavy. Learning to cooperate with his grace takes time and wisdom and effort, but keep your eyes focused on Him, and you will do it. Catholics have the grace of confession to help them in this battle. Feel free to return to this sacrament.

As you are probably aware, the Church hates the sin, but loves the sinner. I honestly feel for you. If I think you’re a sinner, don’t worry, I think of myself a bigger one, despite and especially because of God’s many graces. The chains of this life (especially in the sexual arena) are very great, and no one (well perhaps almost no one) is completely free from them in this lifetime. Masturbation is a great evil, but the Church understands that it’s so hard to break a habit once formed. Instead of condemning, it teaches that you are, more likely than not, not giving your full consent of the will, and that therefore your sin is likely not a mortal one. Confess it, please, since the original time may have been mortal, and even now it might be (it is doubtful but not certain). But no one, least of all me, is condemning you, even if my earlier words were brusque.

Your comments above associated masturbation with rape within the Church. I’m not planning to respond further on that connection unless you explain yourself further.

I hope you find this post better. God bless.
 
“Through this close link with truth, charity can be recognized as an authentic expression of humanity and as an element of fundamental importance in human relations, including those of a public nature. Only in truth does charity shine forth, only in truth can charity be authentically lived. Truth is the light that gives meaning and value to charity. That light is both the light of reason and the light of faith, through which the intellect attains to the natural and supernatural truth of charity: it grasps its meaning as gift, acceptance, and communion. Without truth, charity degenerates into sentimentality. Love becomes an empty shell, to be filled in an arbitrary way. In a culture without truth, this is the fatal risk facing love. It falls prey to contingent subjective emotions and opinions, the word “love” is abused and distorted, to the point where it comes to mean the opposite. Truth frees charity from the constraints of an emotionalism that deprives it of relational and social content, and of a fideism that deprives it of human and universal breathing-space. In the truth, charity reflects the personal yet public dimension of faith in the God of the Bible, who is both Agápe and Lógos: Charity and Truth, Love and Word.”

“Because it is filled with truth, charity can be understood in the abundance of its values, it can be shared and communicated. Truth, in fact, is lógos which creates diá-logos, and hence communication and communion. Truth, by enabling men and women to let go of their subjective opinions and impressions, allows them to move beyond cultural and historical limitations and to come together in the assessment of the value and substance of things. Truth opens and unites our minds in the lógos of love: this is the Christian proclamation and testimony of charity. In the present social and cultural context, where there is a widespread tendency to relativize truth, practising charity in truth helps people to understand that adhering to the values of Christianity is not merely useful but essential for building a good society and for true integral human development. A Christianity of charity without truth would be more or less interchangeable with a pool of good sentiments, helpful for social cohesion, but of little relevance. In other words, there would no longer be any real place for God in the world. Without truth, charity is confined to a narrow field devoid of relations. It is excluded from the plans and processes of promoting human development of universal range, in dialogue between knowledge and praxis.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html
 
The word “grave” here can have many different meanings here, and it’s a bit hard to know which you mean. “Grave” can be synonymous with “serious,” in layman’s terms. But it can mean, specifically, grave matter (sufficient to potentially damn one to hell), and also “grave sin” as opposed to “grave matter” in some church documents in the sense, that is definitely morally damning. Perhaps you can clarify since the ambiguity handicaps me.

I mentioned to you earlier about the anecdotes of grieved wives and girlfriends about which you can find on the internet. Did you want to ignore them, disbelieve them, or restrict our conversation to those masturbators who do not have either? I also mentioned the enormous sexual slave trade which is fundamentally driven by pornography, and seems fair game to lay also at the doorstep of masturbation. In reply to another poster, not you, I also mentioned associated intrinsic risks like chaffing, being unable to perform sexually within marriage, and unknown risks of cancer and brain chemical imbalances. For many people, masturbation and pronography leads to greater depravaties. For a beginning masturbator, how does he know which kind he will turn out to be?

You can cite to animals or aboriginals that might self-stimulate, I can point out that “natural” stimulation seems to be oriented to procreation and bonding. Given that the latter cases are perhaps millions of times more common, and the reason we exist (propagation of the species), I’m not convinced that relying on a “natural law” argument is in your best interest. But I’ll let you decide.

Robbing a bank with a fake gun that couldn’t possibly hurt someone is noble of the criminal, but still to be rejected as sinful. Yes, if someone is so enslaved to their lusts, that they feel they have no other alternative to rape or sexual assault than to masturbate, I would certainly appreciate their first steps to mitigate the damages, but the nature of their chosen act remains immoral. I think that American society is even wise here not to prosecute the act of masturbation as criminal, even if it would be possible to pass a law forbidding the immoral practice. It is a serious act, but the effects are moderate and more remote compared to other more reprehensible criminal activity.

The Church didn’t make masturbation a sin (malum prohibitum). It is a sin by its nature (malum in se), the church is just trying to help the masturbator to understand this. It seems like you take the Church to be a bunch of out-of-touch clergy and their groupies doling out nonsensical “thou-shalt-nots.” This is not the primary function of the Church. The Church is a church of the “yes.” It proclaims the good news that you do not have to be a slave to your passions, that you can have freedom. It teaches Love, whether abstract or personalized in a Trinitarian God, and asks all people, for their own sake, to turn away from inward activities (like masturbation, but also worse or even more neutral activities) and do loving acts and think loving prayers of our neighbors. It wants us all to conform ourselves to this perfect Love, dying to ourselves and our passions. Properly understood, if you love as the Church teaches, you would have no time or interest in masturbation; it wouldn’t even cross your mind once you become advanced enough. Sure, the Church declares certain activities to be sins since people aren’t fully ready for that message yet and would otherwise chase such futilities, but it would rather teach Jesus’s message of love. St. Augustine says, “Love and do what you will.” The Church tries, but we are not perfect people. Jesus says that his grace is sufficient for you, he will not give you a burden (such as addiction to masturbation) that is too heavy. Learning to cooperate with his grace takes time and wisdom and effort, but keep your eyes focused on Him, and you will do it. Catholics have the grace of confession to help them in this battle. Feel free to return to this sacrament.

As you are probably aware, the Church hates the sin, but loves the sinner. I honestly feel for you. If I think you’re a sinner, don’t worry, I think of myself a bigger one, despite and especially because of God’s many graces. The chains of this life (especially in the sexual arena) are very great, and no one (well perhaps almost no one) is completely free from them in this lifetime. Masturbation is a great evil, but the Church understands that it’s so hard to break a habit once formed. Instead of condemning, it teaches that you are, more likely than not, not giving your full consent of the will, and that therefore your sin is likely not a mortal one. Confess it, please, since the original time may have been mortal, and even now it might be (it is doubtful but not certain). But no one, least of all me, is condemning you, even if my earlier words were brusque.

Your comments above associated masturbation with rape within the Church. I’m not planning to respond further on that connection unless you explain yourself further.

I hope you find this post better. God bless.
Wow! Very well thought out and explained, I will keep this for future references. Thank you. I sincerely appreciate the time and effort you put into this.
 
I posted a thread similar to this, and unfortunately I still find myself looking for excuses.

I’ve struggled with masturbation for a little while now. I’ve given into temptation, gone to confession (I’ve gone so many times the priest must think there’s something wrong with me), held out for a month or so, then given in again. After almost giving into temptation again, I was pathetically looking for loopholes and I stumbled across something. Someone said it was only a sin if there was fantasizing involved. I am asexual (I hope that’s not a sin), and never fantasise at all. It never even occurs to me.

So my question is this: Is masturbation without fantasising truly a sin, and a mortal one at that?

Note: I am NOT trying to justify my disgusting actions, I just want to know if I fall to temptation while trying to ween off the habit if I have to worry about not making it to heaven if I die suddenly.
All men I know have struggled with this same temptation, keep working at it and praying for God’s grace to overcome it. It may take a while, so don’t be discouraged. You are in our prayers.

In the Bible, Onan was punished for “spilling his seed”. So, yes, it is not only a sin, it is grave.
 
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