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Shana
Guest
How should I respond to the objection: Masturbation has been proven to be healthy and normal?
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Chiltepin
Guest
I might have something better if I thought about it longer, but my first thought:
“At one point the medical community thought blood-letting was healthy too!”
I see a lot of problems with my own response, so I’ll think of better and get back to you.
“At one point the medical community thought blood-letting was healthy too!”
I see a lot of problems with my own response, so I’ll think of better and get back to you.
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ConallCernach
Guest
Get them to further the reasoning of why it is normal and healthy? How is it normal and healthy? Is it because it can be found in the animal world? If so, infanticide is found there. Is it healthy because it relieves stress? What about the lust that is almost always tacked on there, if you lust in such away, are you depersonizing the gender you lust for (if the wording there is confusing, I’m not endorsing lust or masturbation)? If it could be held that masturbation lead to two outcomes, a relief of stress and a depersonification of the group/person thought of during the arousal is masturbation worth it?
From there you could always ask is a medicinal gain more beneficial then the personhood of another?
Perhaps this will help, maybe not, but here’s hoping.
Pax
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LilyM
Guest
Kinda depends on your definition of ‘normal’. If you mean a majority of people do it and THAT is what you mean by ‘normal’ then you’re correct. Of course a majority of married people cheat on their partners as well - may make it ‘normal’ but doesn’t mean it’s right.
And before Galileo wasn’t it ‘normal’ to believe that the Sun revolved around the Earth? And that the Earth was flat prior to Christopher Columbus’ journey? Didn’t science or logic of the day pretty much ‘prove’ these to everyone’s satisfaction?
What about before Semmelweiss’s and Pateur’s theories about germs causing infection? Before their time it was considered it ‘proven’ by all the best science of the day that disease either generated spontaneously in the body or generated spontaneously in the air (hence ‘malaria’ literally meaning ‘bad air’) or the water or something.
And before Galileo wasn’t it ‘normal’ to believe that the Sun revolved around the Earth? And that the Earth was flat prior to Christopher Columbus’ journey? Didn’t science or logic of the day pretty much ‘prove’ these to everyone’s satisfaction?
What about before Semmelweiss’s and Pateur’s theories about germs causing infection? Before their time it was considered it ‘proven’ by all the best science of the day that disease either generated spontaneously in the body or generated spontaneously in the air (hence ‘malaria’ literally meaning ‘bad air’) or the water or something.
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fellowChristian
Guest
Yes…but what does the Church teach about that?
That is the real question.
If we are talking to those who are baptized in to the Catholic Church we have to remember to be humble and obedient to her teachings.
2340
Whoever wants to remain faithful to his baptismal promises and resist temptations will want to adopt the means for doing so: self-knowledge, practice of an ascesis adapted to the situations that confront him, obedience to God’s commandments, exercise of the moral virtues, and fidelity to prayer. "Indeed it is through chastity that we are gathered together and led back to the unity from which we were fragmented into multiplicity."128
**2341 **
The virtue of chastity comes under the cardinal virtue of temperance, which seeks to permeate the passions and appetites of the senses with reason.
Offenses against chastity
**2351 **
Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
2352
By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
ARTICLE 6
THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT
the** Catechism of the Catholic Church**
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.shtml
That is the real question.
If we are talking to those who are baptized in to the Catholic Church we have to remember to be humble and obedient to her teachings.
2340
Whoever wants to remain faithful to his baptismal promises and resist temptations will want to adopt the means for doing so: self-knowledge, practice of an ascesis adapted to the situations that confront him, obedience to God’s commandments, exercise of the moral virtues, and fidelity to prayer. "Indeed it is through chastity that we are gathered together and led back to the unity from which we were fragmented into multiplicity."128
**2341 **
The virtue of chastity comes under the cardinal virtue of temperance, which seeks to permeate the passions and appetites of the senses with reason.
Offenses against chastity
**2351 **
Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
2352
By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
ARTICLE 6
THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT
the** Catechism of the Catholic Church**
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.shtml
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Fredbird
Guest
Masturbation can be done without lust. Not to sound self centered here but after a good workout at the gym when I get out of the show and see myself I get a bit turned on. Then there is not demeening to the object. I know what canon law says but I do have problems with it and do not totally believe it in.
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Roy5
Guest
NORMAL SEX AND COMMON SENSE
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My father once said, in one of those father-to-son conversations, that masturbation was normal, that 90% of boys admitted participating in it and the other 10% were liars. I'm not sure this is precisely true, but it probably comes close.
Sexual desire is part of our human situation, God-given. It needs to be handled with care, of course, which is to say that we should keep it under control. My own view, at my advanced age, is that a healthy interest in sex is just that - healthy. The problem develops when we become sexually irresponsible and/or promiscuous.
One of the most serious sins of the Church over the centuries has been to give the impression that sex is somehow sinful, that virginity is superior. This is outrageous and damaging nonsense and has done considerable harm to many marriage relationships and within society in general.
The sexual scandal involving priests within the Church is an indication of the power of sex as part of a normal human psyche. If denied an outlet, it too often does become sinful and leads to sexual exploitation (e. g., altar boys abused) and pernicious hypocrisy (e. g., the leader of the Legionnaires for Christ scandal) . This has done horrific injury to the Church. I was reading recently that a new religious survey in Connecticut indicated that the percentage of residents who identify as Catholics there has dropped from 50% to 38% One reason given was the priestly sexual scandal, deliberately covered over by too many higher up in the hierarchy and costing the Church a few $billion in restorative and punitive judgements.
To begin with, priests should be permitted to marry if they choose. This would draw many healthy young candidates to the priesthood. It also would lessen the percentage of gays, many of whom are attracted to the priesthood as a vocation where they can win respect, not be questioned as to why they're unmarried, and in many of their minds hopefully overcome or at least control their sexual orientation. There are sexual scandals among Protestant clergy, most common among fly-by-night, self-appointed preachers. Within the better-established denominations - Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc. -it is far less a problem because the vast majority are married clergy. Their healthy sex drive has a legitimate outlet and most of them enjoy a normal family life with the added blessing of children to love and nourish.
This whole sexual issue - including the Church's continuing and sharp condemnation of modern methods of birth control - has hung like a millstone around the neck of the Church. It keeps driving people away because they know it is an unreasonable position proclaimed by men, most of whom have had little or no experience when it comes to normal sexuality.
Why doesn't the Church wake up and move into the real world on this issue that impacts just about everybody on the planet? Consider the statement made a few days ago by Benedict XVI in Africa, where he again condemned condoms when so many thousands there are dying because they don't use them, Is abstinence better? Of course. But we all are humans, the sex drive is powerful, and it often means that carnal impulses overwhelm reason. Sad, but true..
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Heath_Bar
Guest
Working out and exercising is “normal and healthy”. You can go to the gym, take a jog, swim. Nobody thinks twice about it. Why? Because it is truly “Normal and healthy”.
If masturbation was really “normal and healthy”, why does our God-given conscience tell us it is wrong? Even if you have a problem with the Church’s teaching, your own conscience tells you that what you are doing is shameful, but since it is a whole lot of fun, your conscious mind tries to justify it.
“It’s healthy and normal.” “Everybody does it.” “I can do it without lusting.”
I’ve been there, given myself the same arguments, but my conscience always told me in the back of my mind that it was wrong, long before I ever got closer to Christ. If it was so normal and healthy, why do we do it in secret? Why don’t you see people in gym locker rooms or in public restrooms pleasuring themselves right out in the open if it was “normal and healthy?” Because we know in our hearts that it is shameful. The teachings of the Church are difficult, but nobody ever said following Christ was easy.
If masturbation was really “normal and healthy”, why does our God-given conscience tell us it is wrong? Even if you have a problem with the Church’s teaching, your own conscience tells you that what you are doing is shameful, but since it is a whole lot of fun, your conscious mind tries to justify it.
“It’s healthy and normal.” “Everybody does it.” “I can do it without lusting.”
I’ve been there, given myself the same arguments, but my conscience always told me in the back of my mind that it was wrong, long before I ever got closer to Christ. If it was so normal and healthy, why do we do it in secret? Why don’t you see people in gym locker rooms or in public restrooms pleasuring themselves right out in the open if it was “normal and healthy?” Because we know in our hearts that it is shameful. The teachings of the Church are difficult, but nobody ever said following Christ was easy.
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Fredbird
Guest
Yes you are right following Christ in not easy. But the only thing that has ever told me that it is wrong is the Church. Not the Bible. I am not going with the “normal” it is ok by any means. God knows with the way the world is going today “normal” is not the direction we need to take. I do not pretend to know more than the Church, but I truely believe this is a gift if not abused or misused can be enjoyed.
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MarieCB
Guest
I’ve actually never had that problem. I’ve never even heard of it being considered sinful (at least not by modern people) until I came to this forum.
As for health, at least for men, regular ejaculation helps to prevent prostate disease.
If you thought about it, you could come up with at least half a dozen things which you do in private, all of which are completely healthy and normal. Unless you think it’s fine to have sex with your wife on the park bench, but I very much doubt that.
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thistle
Guest
You seem to be confusing having an erection with masturbation. An erection can happen without a lustful thought. Masturbation CANNOT be done without lustful thoughts.
The Church teaches masturbation is a grave sin and anyone who stubbornly rejects that is committing heresy.
As for those who say it helps prevent prostrate cancer they are simply looking for any excuse to continue justifying sinning.
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MarieCB
Guest
Well, I don’t even have a prostate, so I’m not trying to justify anything.
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SteveGC
Guest
I suppose I would say…Since when do health and normality define morals? Do you realize this is how some women are encouraged to have abortions…by using this same argument? Masturbation isn’t a health issue…nor a normality issue. It’s a morality issue.
Why?
Because God says it is.
How do we know that?
Because The Church, whom God granted authority to shepherd His flock on earth, and who was taught directly by Christ, says it is.
So what do we do?
Follow the Church, turn from this sin (and all others) by allowing The Church to feed and tend to us, as Christ commanded Peter. Lean not on our own fallible understandings, as we are poor judges of morality. Trust in the Church to help us overcome all evil impulses of the flesh.
God Bless
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mesurman
Guest
Roy,
Why should the Catholic Church abandon 2000 years of tradition just to satisfy the current cultural push for sexual licentiousness? Priests should not be married. There would be just as many problems. Priests being married is not the answer. You need to go back and study some history and the Catechism. Celibacy is a gift not a punishment. Your logic is deeply flawed. I ask you to truly consider your post above and pretend you are telling this to Jesus and imagine his response and go from there. God Bless!
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TLM08
Guest
Catholic teaching on sexual sins is largely based upon St. Augustine’s guilt trip that resulted from his own sexual shenanigans. Most catholics are either completely consumed with guilt and and totally obsessed with repressing their natural desires, or they are pretty much ignoring what the church teaches and doing what they want anyway.
The masturbation can be complicated. It can become habitual and is frequently linked with porn, which can often comes with another set of problems. However, if it keeps a sixteen year-old boy from having sexual intercourse with the little floozy down the street, perhaps it’s not such a terrible thing after all provided that pornography consumption is not a part of that.
Consider also the married man who on a two week business trip in another city resorts to an episode or two of self-relief in the privacy of his hotel room after daily seminars in a conference room with several beautiful young women. If it keeps him from accepting an offer from one of them for dinner and a midnight romp, perhaps it’s not such a bad thing after all. A sane, realistic and honest approach to this issue is called for.
In my opinion it never made much sense for celibate men to decide what is appropriate sexual behavior within marriage provided that both husband and wife are in agreement.
The masturbation can be complicated. It can become habitual and is frequently linked with porn, which can often comes with another set of problems. However, if it keeps a sixteen year-old boy from having sexual intercourse with the little floozy down the street, perhaps it’s not such a terrible thing after all provided that pornography consumption is not a part of that.
Consider also the married man who on a two week business trip in another city resorts to an episode or two of self-relief in the privacy of his hotel room after daily seminars in a conference room with several beautiful young women. If it keeps him from accepting an offer from one of them for dinner and a midnight romp, perhaps it’s not such a bad thing after all. A sane, realistic and honest approach to this issue is called for.
In my opinion it never made much sense for celibate men to decide what is appropriate sexual behavior within marriage provided that both husband and wife are in agreement.
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Chiltepin
Guest
Don’t forget Theology of the Body!
edit: I do recommend that a lot of you look into it. Some of these opinions(in this thread) are very troubling indeed.
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LilyM
Guest
Put it this way - for all we know, drinking the blood of freshly-killed babies prevents prostate cancer - that fact wouldn’t make it OK to go killing babies!
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LilyM
Guest
Let me get this straight - committing a mortal sin (masturbation) is justifiable because it prevents a different mortal sin (fornication or adultery)?Catholic teaching on sexual sins is largely based upon St. Augustine’s guilt trip that resulted from his own sexual shenanigans. Most catholics are either completely consumed with guilt and and totally obsessed with repressing their natural desires, or they are pretty much ignoring what the church teaches and doing what they want anyway.
The masturbation can be complicated. It can become habitual and is frequently linked with porn, which can often comes with another set of problems. However, if it keeps a sixteen year-old boy from having sexual intercourse with the little floozy down the street, perhaps it’s not such a terrible thing after all provided that pornography consumption is not a part of that.
Consider also the married man who on a two week business trip in another city resorts to an episode or two of self-relief in the privacy of his hotel room after daily seminars in a conference room with several beautiful young women. If it keeps him from accepting an offer from one of them for dinner and a midnight romp, perhaps it’s not such a bad thing after all. A sane, realistic and honest approach to this issue is called for.
In my opinion it never made much sense for celibate men to decide what is appropriate sexual behavior within marriage provided that both husband and wife are in agreement.
That’s like saying it’s OK to murder someone - as long as you do it quickly, with a bullet to the head, instead of with a slow-acting poison. Doesn’t make it any the less murder either way.
Newsflash - for the first 1,000 years of Catholicism priests were permitted to be married, in both Eastern and Latin rites. And still are in the Eastern churches. Those who weren’t were still men - every bit as prone to struggling against lusts of the flesh as any married man. So it’s a myth that it was only (or primarily) celibate men, or only (or primarily) men who didn’t understand the realities of human sexuality, who came up with Church law on masturbation.
A ‘realistic’ approach? I suppose Jesus was very ‘realistic’ when He told us to be perfect! In fact if he or you were to be totally ‘realistic’ in this manner, you’d both hold that anything goes because people are just going to sin anyway whether you tell them to or not.
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MarieCB
Guest
And when masturbation is compared to killing babies and drinking their blood, I’m afraid I have no response.
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TLM08
Guest
I never said that masturbation was perfectly fine and without moral consideration.
Black and white thinking has been the source of incredible emotional torment of many people who seek to do good since time began. This black and white thinking is at the root of the sex scandal that has plagued the church as well. Sickness loves black and white thinking!
Christ’s words “be perfect as your heavely father is perfect” have been taken out of context for centuries. As human beings, we are not capable of perfection. There is only one God… and it is not us!
peace~
- Status