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TLM08
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This would be my rsponse:
Emotional and spiritual issues aside…
it is indeed physically healthy and normal.
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LilyM
Guest
Perfection doesn’t mean we have to be God. As human beings, with His help we are capable of being perfect human beings - or at least sinless, as Mary was her whole life and as all the Saints became at least shortly before death. That is within the bounds of human capability - like I said, with God’s help.I never said that masturbation was perfectly fine and without moral consideration.
Black and white thinking has been the source of incredible emotional torment of many people who seek to do good since time began. This black and white thinking is at the root of the sex scandal that has plagued the church as well. Sickness loves black and white thinking!
Christ’s words “be perfect as your heavely father is perfect” have been taken out of context for centuries. As human beings, we are not capable of perfection. There is only one God… and it is not us!
peace~
As to black and white - as Fr Corapi says ‘the devil’s favourite colour is gray’.
It’s our refusal to face our sinfulness, our tendency to justify and obsfuscate and make excuses and argue ‘well, at least it’s not the WORST sin I could commit’ and the like, that causes more problems than anything.
Calling sin sin, owning up to it, repenting when we fall, and getting back up and striving to improve, is far less problematic in my experience, and more conducive to holiness, than wringing your hands over supposed ‘gray areas’ that exist only in your mind.
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LilyM
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It’s a hyperbole - an exaggeration used to make a point. The point being that ‘it is good for your health’ is no justification for masturbation or any other sinful activity.
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baylee
Guest
This is wrong and I know this from personal experience in my distant past. There were times in my life that stressful situations would require me to masturbate to relieve the stress. I did not have lustful thoughts at those times. We could argue whether the stress “required” me to do so, but my point is that I know I was not having lustful thoughts to carry it out. I believe the Catechism also discusses how moral culpability is lessened under certain situations.
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LilyM
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Lack of lust doesn’t make it less a sin - stress possibly does, but be clear that stress NEVER ‘requires’ anyone to masturbate any more than it ‘requires’ anyone to fornicate or watch pornography.
There are plenty of ways of relieving stress without masturbation. And such comments go to the heart of WHY masturbation is wrong - it turns God’s great gift of our sexuality into a mere mechanical act done ‘as stress relief’ or for purposes equally contrary to God’s plan.
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baylee
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Why does the Church allow for gray when dealing with, for example, lying then? I do not have an issue with the teaching regarding masturbation, but I do find it interesting that certain sins (and very often they are sexual sins) are black and white and others do allow for gray.
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baylee
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Didn’t I state in my post that my point was not to argue whether it “required” me to masturbate?
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LilyM
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There’s not as much gray as you’d think. Augustine and Aquinas, among many others, taught that all lying is sinful, it’s only a question of whether it’s venial or mortal. Like masturbation the subjective level of culpability can be influenced by factors such as duress.
But duress and other mitigating factors are way more difficult to argue in the case of masturbation or other sexual sin.
There’s no real equivalent of the ‘Nazis hammering on your door, you’ve got Jews hiding in the attic, you’ve got half a second to decide whether to lie and save their lives or tell the truth and send them to certain death’ duress scenario, or the ‘I’m chemically dependent on this heroin and will be extremely ill with all the symptoms of withdrawal if I don’t have it, therefore I’m less culpable for what I do when under the influence or seeking a fix’ scenario, in cases of sexual sin, is there?
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LilyM
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No, you didn’t. You said ‘we could argue’ - and we simply can’t. Stress never ‘requires’ anyone to masturbate, end of story.
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baylee
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Um, people *could *argue that it did. You may disagree with that argument, but it doesn’t mean that people can’t argue it…that was my point. People can argue whatever they want to.
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Heath_Bar
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I’m with you on that, Lily. The Church’s teachings on this subject are difficult for a lot of people to accept, so that is why so many try to justify it. The Church’s teaching may not be strictly logical, according to the prevailing WORLD view, but the world’s view on sexuality is not God’s view. “My ways are not your ways” says the Lord. “If it feels good, do it” is not the Church’s teaching. You can throw around all of the “prostate health” arguments you want to try to justify how sinning can actually be healthy, but eating of the fruit of the tree of good and knowledge was supposed to make Adam and Eve live forever, but it was still a sin. You see how that turned out for them.
Yes, it is a hard teaching to accept, but so is the Eucharist, the resurrection, and the Trinity, all of which defy “the world’s logic”. No one ever said that God is always logical to our base, human intellect.
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Chiltepin
Guest
take a hot bath, go for a run, ride a bike, PRAY, find someone who lets you vent to them, have a margarita.
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Lucky7
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I think this is what Baylee and TLM08 were referring to … that depending upon cirumstances, etc. there are some sins that can be either mortal or venial. On the other hand, most sexual-related sins are considered mortal with no wiggle room…which **is **interesting.
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Chiltepin
Guest
Sexual sins are subject to the same three conditions that other sins are in determining if they are mortal.
Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner
There isn’t “wiggle room”, (see the three conditions) and it is either mortal or it is not. What I think **is **interesting is that sexual sins are more likely to attract public complaints and justifications of the sinner. I think this is because society is telling you it is not a bad. The world is full of liars, theives and murders, but our society’s ideal culture still holds those things as wrong( a society’s real culture is rather different from its ideal culture)
For goodness sake do not use it as a stress relief. See my previous suggestions:
Anyone who so fervently defends this immoral action should read up on Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. I truly believe the reason one would come here arguing it is not a sin is because they do not firmly believe their own argument. So if you know you aren’t sure about this, please be open to some of the beautiful writings of the JPII on what the gift of your sexuality is really for.
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Chiltepin
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That is my favorite color too!
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Lucky7
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Yes, you are correct about what makes a mortal sin…I am sorry. I think the point then is not mortal vs venial but grave vs not. Sometimes a lie is considered grave (yes, one of the components of mortal sin), but sometimes it is not considered grave. This is the wiggle room I speak of. However, with sexual sins very often the matter is grave no matter what and rarely considered less serious depending upon the circumstances. Does that make more sense now?
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Annn
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Not to argue with the point of the thread, but from what I understand there are definitely people who masturbate without thinking about anything except how good it feels, and without lustful thoughts.
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thistle
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Frankly I do not believe you. Masturbation ALWAYS involves lustful thoughts.
Moral culpability is in regard to age and addiction. It does not allow stress to be used as an excuse to commit a mortal sin.
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LilyM
Guest
How good sexual arousal feels? How good orgasm feels? How are these not lustful thoughts?
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