Masturbation.

[sw85]

I know what the Church teaches. It is a grave sin, worthy of being condemned for eternity in hell.

This is not what I mean when I say you don’t know what the Church teaches or why. Do you understand what a “sin” is, ontologically speaking? What it means for something to be “grave”? Do you know why this particular action is regarded as a “grave” “sin”? Or why certain other actions are not regarded as “grave” “sins,” like having sex with your wife? Are you familiar with relevant concepts like privatio boni and ipsum esse subsistens?There’s a lot more to it than “it’s a sin, God says so,” about which you don’t seem to be aware. The best evidence for this is that you keep saying “it’s healthy, thus it’s good” as if that were relevant to the Church’s teachings on it.

Again, often what is “good for you” is not objectively “good” (and I am firmly disputing that it is even a clear fact that masturbation is “good for you”). Everyone in the world would account a man a coward who runs away and leaves his wife to be ravaged by a serial killer, even though he is doing what is best for him, i.e., ensuring his own safety. Is cowardice good? Obviously not.

I too could say that you aren’t interested in discovering why it is a normal and healthy behaviour.

Listen, I’ve done my homework on it. You’re not going to surprise me here with anything you could possibly say. The evidence re: its health benefits are, again, mixed. I’m a social science researcher by trade and, being both a dude and kind of a horn dog myself, I once wrote up a lengthy study proposal into human sexual behavior for an NSF grant. (I didn’t get it, but boo, like 1% of applicants get them). I know how to read studies and interpret them, and this is not my first time investigating this issue.

The evidence at best is extremely ambiguous and, realistically, basically useless, because it is heavily qualified and largely unreplicated. There is some support for the claim that masturbation reduces cancer risk in men over 50. The same support shows that masturbation *increases *cancer risk in men under 50. Note that neither of these studies controlled for a number of confounds and, oh yes, most social science research is bunk. I know this because my background is in statistics and I know that the methodological assumptions on which statistical significance tests are built are rarely ever even tested in the literature, much less actually satisfied in the real world. Which explains why no one bothers to test them, I guess. I swear if I ever see the phrase “principal components analysis with varimax rotation” appear in a paper without being prefaced by the words “you should never ever ever conduct a,” I will cut up my APA membership card and mail it back to them.

I’m aware too of the anecdotal claims re: its utility. I don’t buy them because (a) they’re anecdotal so mileage varies, and (b) my own (equally anecdotal) experiences don’t match up with them.

And I’m aware that all of these are irrelevant to what the Church teaches, because the Church’s ethical system is nonconsequentialist and nonphenomenological (which is by definition objective!). If masturbation caused it to rain money, it’d still be morally disordered. Disordered means contrary to the normative, natural moral order. To understand what is meant by “normative, natural moral order,” you need to know natural law theory. You don’t get to claim “you’re wrong” when you don’t even know what I’m saying.

Obsessing about masturbation being sinful and tearfully / fearfully / hopelessly praying to a supernatural God to help you resist the same hormonal feelings every single human feels and then feeling horrible, guilt ridden and bad after you partake in said activity…that is unhealthy in my view.

OK, but again, whether your view is correct is what’s in dispute here. I’m saying it is not correct. Therefore repeatedly asserting your view is not helpful.

 

[dimentichisimai]

If masturbation caused it to rain money, it’d still be morally disordered. Disordered means contrary to the normative, natural moral order. To understand what is meant by “normative, natural moral order,” you need to know natural law theory. You don’t get to claim “you’re wrong” when you don’t even know what I’m saying.

:clapping:

 

[BRZ]

I know what the Church teaches. It is a grave sin, worthy of being condemned for eternity in hell.

I just don’t believe it.

I know it is healthy, normal, beneficial, harmless, enjoyable and of no business to anyone or any supernatural being.

I too could say that you aren’t interested in discovering why it is a normal and healthy behaviour.

Obsessing about masturbation being sinful and tearfully / fearfully / hopelessly praying to a supernatural God to help you resist the same hormonal feelings every single human feels and then feeling horrible, guilt ridden and bad after you partake in said activity…that is unhealthy in my view.

I am curious, who exactly is obsessing over masturbation? The original poster, and yourself, come on to a Catholic forum and try to tell us Catholics what is a sin or what isn’t a sin. What exactly was your goal? I sure hope it wasn’t to get more people to masturbate because that is just childish and immature.

No, what is really going on here is that, you and the original poster, know that you are wrong. The Truth is written in our hearts and deep down we all know right from wrong. You are trying to convince yourselves that your chosen lifestyle is correct and to do so you are trying to validate your opinions by coming here and posting as you have. There could be no other real explanation. No Catholics sought you out and tried to force you to believe what the Catholic Church teaches. You sought us out. You came to a Catholic forum, signed up and posted in discussions here. You could not have possibly expected to convince us that your opinion is correct. No, you came here to make a statement to validate yourself in your own mind. Of course, this is a delusional goal because you aren’t actually validating anything except your own delusions.

You also seem incapable of understanding some key basic concepts which you must be able to comprehend to get what we are saying. You must understand what a “sin” is, which you do not.

You are also predicating your argument under the assumption that, Masturbation = beneficial health results = not a sin. However, it matters not whether it is good for your health or not. This is not the deciding factor of what is a “good and moral” thing. The deciding factor behind what is a “good and moral” thing is God. If you are unwilling to accept this because it is God related, you are wasting your breath.

Now, just to argue that there is health benefits to masturbation, you have provided no substantial evidence. Linking to some studies and anecdotal research done is not providing substantial evidence. There are tons of variables involved in studies, which anyone who took classes related to research and studies at a University would know. Anecdotal research is extremely circumstantial and not reliable. Studies themselves are very unreliable due to various factors. The truth is, is that there is no way to scientifically prove that masturbation has beneficial effects. (Again, this has nothing to do with whether it is a sin or not, simply discussing your assertion that it is beneficial to your health)

Also, just because a few people throw around statistics like, 99% of people masturbate and the other 1% are liars, does not make it true. This is just plain false. Perhaps most people have masturbated at one point or other in their life, this is not something one can really know, but what I can say definitely is that once I learned the truth, I never did it again and I am sure many others can say the same.

 

[Durus]

I am curious, who exactly is obsessing over masturbation? The original poster, and yourself, come on to a Catholic forum and try to tell us Catholics what is a sin or what isn’t a sin. What exactly was your goal? I sure hope it wasn’t to get more people to masturbate because that is just childish and immature.

No, what is really going on here is that, you and the original poster, know that you are wrong. The Truth is written in our hearts and deep down we all know right from wrong. You are trying to convince yourselves that your chosen lifestyle is correct and to do so you are trying to validate your opinions by coming here and posting as you have. There could be no other real explanation. No Catholics sought you out and tried to force you to believe what the Catholic Church teaches. You sought us out. You came to a Catholic forum, signed up and posted in discussions here. You could not have possibly expected to convince us that your opinion is correct. No, you came here to make a statement to validate yourself in your own mind. Of course, this is a delusional goal because you aren’t actually validating anything except your own delusions.

You also seem incapable of understanding some key basic concepts which you must be able to comprehend to get what we are saying. You must understand what a “sin” is, which you do not.

You are also predicating your argument under the assumption that, Masturbation = beneficial health results = not a sin. However, it matters not whether it is good for your health or not. This is not the deciding factor of what is a “good and moral” thing. The deciding factor behind what is a “good and moral” thing is God. If you are unwilling to accept this because it is God related, you are wasting your breath.

Now, just to argue that there is health benefits to masturbation, you have provided no substantial evidence. Linking to some studies and anecdotal research done is not providing substantial evidence. There are tons of variables involved in studies, which anyone who took classes related to research and studies at a University would know. Anecdotal research is extremely circumstantial and not reliable. Studies themselves are very unreliable due to various factors. The truth is, is that there is no way to scientifically prove that masturbation has beneficial effects. (Again, this has nothing to do with whether it is a sin or not, simply discussing your assertion that it is beneficial to your health)

Also, just because a few people throw around statistics like, 99% of people masturbate and the other 1% are liars, does not make it true. This is just plain false. Perhaps most people have masturbated at one point or other in their life, this is not something one can really know, but what I can say definitely is that once I learned the truth, I never did it again and I am sure many others can say the same.

We agree to disagree…this is circular now.

 

[BRZ]

So be it.

 

[NFP1Kate]

I said MASTURBATE TO CLIMAX!

Don’t act like I’m an idiot. You didn’t prove a thing by going to Wikipedia.

Animals don’t climax unnaturally!

 

[Holly3278]

God says that masturbation is a grave sin and God has the final word. Masturbation may supposedly have “health benefits” but those same benefits can be achieved through marital relations with your spouse of the opposite sex. That said, I could care less if some sin is beneficial to my health. I have heard some people say that sometimes abortion is the only way to save the life of the mother. I say, so what? You can’t do evil to bring about good. If I was ever in the situation where I was pregnant and the doctors said my pregnancy would end my life if I did not get an abortion, I would refuse the abortion and trust in God. I refuse to commit a mortal sin just to save my own life.

 

[MarkInOregon]

I was raised with no religion, my parents allowed to make a choice rather than shoving brain-washing material down my throat

Did your parents let you decide whether or not to wear clothes–or did they brainwash you by shoving clothes on you?

Did they let you decide what to eat–or did they brainwash you into eating food that was good for you by shoving it down your throat?

Did they let you decide to go to school or did they brainwash you by sending you to a school to recieve all that secular indoctrination?

And the list could go on and on and on.

Why is it only religion that is dangerous brainwashing indoctrination? Why is it only religion that kids should get a choice about? No you’re right–you weren’t brainwashed at all by your parents–they just set you in a room and let you do what ever you wanted.without any guidance or instruction.

Mark

 

[J_Peterson]

I’m asking for a scientific reason (If there is one) for believing it is a sin. Believe whatever you wish, it doesn’t matter. Basically "It’s a sin because it does _______) is what I want. Not “It’s a sin because it’s in the bible”. Why is it in the bible? What’s the reasoning behind the moral belief? If the argument is as simple as, we believe it, that’s that, then I could go on to that in my religion, potato eating is a sin, brushing your teeth is a sin and other silly things.

It’s a moment when your entire being is turned inward toward the self. God wants us to reject the (external) self as much as possible, not give in to it’s every whim and pleasure. You probably won’t go to hell for it (unless it’s more than occasional) but small sacrafices make the big one’s easier. It may be good for the body but it’s bad for the soul and the body will die someday regardless if we mastubate or not but the soul will live.

 

[mark_a]

Originally Posted by ThePastafarian
Also, I feel I should add that I’m a happily married man, making good money every year with 2 kids.

How does your wife feel about your habit?

 

[Rolltide]

I said MASTURBATE TO CLIMAX!

Don’t act like I’m an idiot. You didn’t prove a thing by going to Wikipedia.

Animals don’t climax unnaturally!

You won’t win this portion of the argument. Animals do do that. There is (graphic) documentary footage, both in captivity and in the wild. I’d rather not post something like that here, but it exists. It’s a straw man argument however, because animals are not bound by morality.

 

[ThePastafarian]

Did your parents let you decide whether or not to wear clothes–or did they brainwash you by shoving clothes on you?

Did they let you decide what to eat–or did they brainwash you into eating food that was good for you by shoving it down your throat?

Did they let you decide to go to school or did they brainwash you by sending you to a school to recieve all that secular indoctrination?

And the list could go on and on and on.

Why is it only religion that is dangerous brainwashing indoctrination? Why is it only religion that kids should get a choice about? No you’re right–you weren’t brainwashed at all by your parents–they just set you in a room and let you do what ever you wanted.without any guidance or instruction.

Mark

As Durus said, arguing this is pointless now. However, I will comment on your post. No, my parent did not brainwash me by any of the above. The difference is that religion changes your way of life, as seen above. Clothing, eating; it doesn’t. The difference is that people will no longer indulge in a natural habit because they’re scared they’ll go to hell. Bias towards a certain clothing wouldn’t make me sacrifice myself, but according to the woman up there, religion would. Bias towards a certain schooling would not make me endanger the health of my son by removing his condoms so he could no long have safe sex and, almost inevitably, catch a disease that would ruin the rest of his life.(This was recommended by a Catholic expert on the asking board). I would never encourage my son at his age to practice one a completely personality-distinguishing religion until he could fully understand what he was practicing. Exposing a child to such an adult concept itself should be a sin. They can’t make decisions for themselves at that age, which is why you as a parent should wait until they’re older to expose them to religion, if they’re interested at all. The “Brainwashing” can, quite literally, be seen in this movie: youtube.com/watch?v=I-5CiajlK94&feature=related ) Skip to 3:10. Yes, not all religious families operate like this, but show me some evidence of this situation but instead of religion, anything you mentioned.

 

[epan]

This thread makes me wonder. Does the Catholic Church teach that Genesis 38:6-9, and that ! Corinthians 6:9 refer to masturbation?

 

[cjmclark]

This thread makes me wonder. Does the Catholic Church teach that Genesis 38:6-9, and that ! Corinthians 6:9 refer to masturbation?

The Catholic Church teaches that the Sixth Commandment refers to masturbation.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

 

[Dnorris707]

I think ill add my 2 cents in here. It is a completely selfish act. You are taking something that was obviously meant for two and cutting the other part out. You do it purely for pleasure. And to your “health benefits”, ask any guy why they masturbate and I guarantee they wouldnt mention one thing about health benifits. Once again it is selfish. And here is some science and hard facts for you, obviously the sexuality of humans is meant for two, without getting too explicit, it’s like a puzzle and all the pieces fit. And to an earlier commenters point tht they don’t treat women like a slab of meat, when you use them strictly for pleasure, like in masturbation, your are saying that all you want from them is pleasure. You don’t even care about them enough to give them pleasure as well.

 

[epan]

The Catholic Church teaches that the Sixth Commandment refers to masturbation.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

Thanks!

 

[ellipsis2]

I said MASTURBATE TO CLIMAX!

Don’t act like I’m an idiot. You didn’t prove a thing by going to Wikipedia.

Animals don’t climax unnaturally!

Woah! Take it easy.

 

[epan]

I said MASTURBATE TO CLIMAX!

Don’t act like I’m an idiot. You didn’t prove a thing by going to Wikipedia.

Animals don’t climax unnaturally!

That dang Wikipedia… just because it is more accurate than the best encyclopedia does not mean that it is credible.

 

[Non_sum_dignus]

As Durus said, arguing this is pointless now.

There was no argument to begin with. You and Durus come from a position that denies the existence of sin, yet you came to a Catholic website to rail on about what the Church deems to be sin. The whole thing was masturbatory, so you may now enjoy the myriad benefits to health and sanity that will descend from the practice.

 

[MarkInOregon]

As Durus said, arguing this is pointless now. However, I will comment on your post. No, my parent did not brainwash me by any of the above. The difference is that religion changes your way of life, as seen above. Clothing, eating; it doesn’t. The difference is that people will no longer indulge in a natural habit because they’re scared they’ll go to hell. Bias towards a certain clothing wouldn’t make me sacrifice myself, but according to the woman up there, religion would. Bias towards a certain schooling would not make me endanger the health of my son by removing his condoms so he could no long have safe sex and, almost inevitably, catch a disease that would ruin the rest of his life.(This was recommended by a Catholic expert on the asking board). I would never encourage my son at his age to practice one a completely personality-distinguishing religion until he could fully understand what he was practicing. Exposing a child to such an adult concept itself should be a sin. They can’t make decisions for themselves at that age, which is why you as a parent should wait until they’re older to expose them to religion, if they’re interested at all. The “Brainwashing” can, quite literally, be seen in this movie: youtube.com/watch?v=I-5CiajlK94&feature=related ) Skip to 3:10. Yes, not all religious families operate like this, but show me some evidence of this situation but instead of religion, anything you mentioned.

The view you espouse above shows the dangerous brainwashing of the apparently secular humanist education you received. It shows a lack of understanding of Catholic teaching and thought. It shows a base and I think distorted view of the human person.

The education you received is just as “completely personality-distinguishing” as the religious education you attack–you’re just convinced it is the “truth”–and so you fail to see that and to you the rest of us are brainwashed idiots lacking the ability to think and reason. Educating your children in this secular, relativistic, make up your own truth mind set is educating them in a quasi-religious view point–one that I think is quite dangerous to not only their health but to society as a whole. It is a view point that places personal desire as the highest good (though you’ll deny this and cloak it in other terms) and anything that impeeds those desires is demonized (i.e you came here to this web site to basically demonize and make fun of our world view).

You accuse of endangering our childrens health because we are against condoms, but in actuality we don’t need condoms because we are against sex outside of marriage–why that seems to bother so many of you is beyond me. I would argue that in reality it is you who endangers the health of your children by encouraging them to have sex–which is a risky behavior from a health stand point with or without a condom. We teach a much healthier view of the human person and what it means to love someone–a view that leads to behavior that is ultimately much safer than your espoused view of “sex with a condom”. As an aside if you want to see where this world view is taking us – take a look at what B4U-ACT advocates for. Ah yes–and we Catholics are a danger to our children–give me a break.

Oh, by the way, bias toward certain schooling has made many in our society endanger the health of their children by denying vaccines to their children leaving them at risk of deseases that would ruin the rest of their lives.

In reality the world view you were exposed to and that you advocate exposing children to brainwashes them in a way that makes it very difficult for them to adopt a religious world view–in other words to think for themselves–the exact thing you accuse us of doing. Yet in reality–when you look at the number of people who grow up taught a religious world view and who later reject that world view–I think the evidence suggest that while we teach them what we believe–we also encourage them to think for themselves and to make that view their own–something that I don’t think can be said for your side.

We teach what we know to be the truth. Yet you would deny us that and come here to accuse us of being monsters for doing so–saying it should be considered a sin. We don’t attack you for or claim that you shouldn’t be able to teach your children what you believe to be true–we beleive that is your right. We are not afraid of the exchange of ideas but as our ideas are silenced at every opportunity in the public arena–it seems that someone is afraid of our ideas. My children have been exposed to many ideas and they know why we believe the Catholic faith to be true over these other beliefs. I have no reason to hide any of that from them as I do not fear these other “religions” or lack of religion–apparently you fear “religion” as you conceive of it–and I suspect your conception of it has been distorted by the brainwashing you received and by the way many have practiced it–but that is a human problem–not a truth problem.

Finally “brainwashing” has been misused by you and by me in our discussion–though I think we have used it consistently. But for the record brainwashing is: a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and accept contrasting regimented ideas. That is not what we do when we educate our children in ideas–our children are not born with any basic ideas that we iduce them to give up.

Peace,
Mark