Masturbation.

[choose_to_love]

@sw #61 “if masturbation caused it to rain money, it’d still be morally disordered” You, sir, win the internets.

@mark in oregon: nicely done.

 

[clem456]

Masturbation is a turning inward of goods that are designed to be shared in communion with another person. It is not healthy in any way whatsoever. We are designed to share pleasure of any kinid, not hoard it, that is part of our undeniable human nature. To reserve these things for one’s self leads to all sorts of bad things that might not be apparent to surface observation. Misogyny, tyranny, oppression, isolation. Masturbation, observed in a superficial way is seemingly harmless, but the habitual practice of any pleasure in a disordered way distorts one’s view of others…

take it for what it’s worth from someone who’s suffered the consequences, inverted pleasure = spiritual death.

 

[mark_a]

This thread makes me wonder. Does the Catholic Church teach that Genesis 38:6-9, and that ! Corinthians 6:9 refer to masturbation?

Here’s a good source for the Jewish roots of the Catholic and formerly protestant teaching:

rtforum.org/lt/lt67.html

And here’s one about how Protestantism ran right off the tracks:

touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=20-04-020-f

 

[RileyG]

From a Catholic perspective, masturbation (or lust, or pornography) is a sin because it’s not in the sacred bond of marriage. All sexual acts must be between married couples (both uniting the couple, and procreative-open to life).

“But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Matthew 5:28

“Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God” Romans 8:8

“Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.” Matthew 26:14

I’ve also struggled with these sins (not going into detail), and yes, it is addictive and when not treated can be extremely destructive.

God Bless

 

[RileyG]

God says that masturbation is a grave sin and God has the final word. Masturbation may supposedly have “health benefits” but those same benefits can be achieved through marital relations with your spouse of the opposite sex. That said, I could care less if some sin is beneficial to my health. I have heard some people say that sometimes abortion is the only way to save the life of the mother. I say, so what? You can’t do evil to bring about good. If I was ever in the situation where I was pregnant and the doctors said my pregnancy would end my life if I did not get an abortion, I would refuse the abortion and trust in God. I refuse to commit a mortal sin just to save my own life.

Hi Holly,

I’m not a woman, so I’ll never be pregnant, but you said it spot-on. “No good can from evil”.

 

[fastenatingguy]

That’s not at all what he’s suggesting. He’s saying that any of the “health benefits” purported to be associated with masturbation can quite easily be achieved through engaging in sex with your spouse, so why indulge yourself in a grave matter when you can engage in unitive intercourse with your loved one?

---

Thanks for that response, which is exactly what I meant. Maybe I shouldn’t try to be so “hip” which only confuses people. But back in the day,* nookie* (NOT snookie) was a nickname for lovemaking.

 

[fastenatingguy]

This is not what I mean when I say you don’t know what the Church teaches or why. Do you understand what a “sin” is, ontologically speaking? What it means for something to be “grave”? Do you know why this particular action is regarded as a “grave” “sin”? Or why certain other actions are not regarded as “grave” “sins,” like having sex with your wife? Are you familiar with relevant concepts like privatio boni and ipsum esse subsistens?There’s a lot more to it than “it’s a sin, God says so,” about which you don’t seem to be aware. The best evidence for this is that you keep saying “it’s healthy, thus it’s good” as if that were relevant to the Church’s teachings on it.

Again, often what is “good for you” is not objectively “good” (and I am firmly disputing that it is even a clear fact that masturbation is “good for you”). Everyone in the world would account a man a coward who runs away and leaves his wife to be ravaged by a serial killer, even though he is doing what is best for him, i.e., ensuring his own safety. Is cowardice good? Obviously not.​

Listen, I’ve done my homework on it. You’re not going to surprise me here with anything you could possibly say. The evidence re: its health benefits are, again, mixed. I’m a social science researcher by trade and, being both a dude and kind of a horn dog myself, I once wrote up a lengthy study proposal into human sexual behavior for an NSF grant. (I didn’t get it, but boo, like 1% of applicants get them). I know how to read studies and interpret them, and this is not my first time investigating this issue.

The evidence at best is extremely ambiguous and, realistically, basically useless, because it is heavily qualified and largely unreplicated. There is some support for the claim that masturbation reduces cancer risk in men over 50. The same support shows that masturbation *increases *cancer risk in men under 50. Note that neither of these studies controlled for a number of confounds and, oh yes, most social science research is bunk. I know this because my background is in statistics and I know that the methodological assumptions on which statistical significance tests are built are rarely ever even tested in the literature, much less actually satisfied in the real world. Which explains why no one bothers to test them, I guess. I swear if I ever see the phrase “principal components analysis with varimax rotation” appear in a paper without being prefaced by the words “you should never ever ever conduct a,” I will cut up my APA membership card and mail it back to them.

I’m aware too of the anecdotal claims re: its utility. I don’t buy them because (a) they’re anecdotal so mileage varies, and (b) my own (equally anecdotal) experiences don’t match up with them.

And I’m aware that all of these are irrelevant to what the Church teaches, because the Church’s ethical system is nonconsequentialist and nonphenomenological (which is by definition objective!). If masturbation caused it to rain money, it’d still be morally disordered. Disordered means contrary to the normative, natural moral order. To understand what is meant by “normative, natural moral order,” you need to know natural law theory. You don’t get to claim “you’re wrong” when you don’t even know what I’m saying.

OK, but again, whether your view is correct is what’s in dispute here. I’m saying it is not correct. Therefore repeatedly asserting your view is not helpful.

---

I think this is helpful to many here, but not to the OP. Unfortunately, his heart is closed because his mind, ears, and eyes are closed.

Secularism is the enemy of all those of faith.

 

[fastenatingguy]

There was no argument to begin with. You and Durus come from a position that denies the existence of sin, yet you came to a Catholic website to rail on about what the Church deems to be sin. The whole thing was masturbatory, so you may now enjoy the myriad benefits to health and sanity that will descend from the practice.

---

I laughed! Well said, subtle…and sharp!

I would have said "quit j______ us ___!’

 

[ThePastafarian]

Is it so hard to understand that exposing children to something far beyond their level is dangerous? I bet most of the people here have been a part of their religion of birth, including the ones who would die for it. As I said, you’ll believe absolutely anything your parents say as a child, no matter how ridiculous. That’s literally all there is to it. When my kid is old enough to think for himself, I’ll show him a variety of religions, with no bias, and ask him if he’s interested in any of them. He’ll be able to learn and view it in a way he could never have done as a child. Did you even watch the video I linked? The mother is shoving religion down his throat, completely altering his perspective on factual evidence, there’s absolutely no question about it.

 

[Jas2282]

There was no argument to begin with. You and Durus come from a position that denies the existence of sin, yet you came to a Catholic website to rail on about what the Church deems to be sin. The whole thing was masturbatory, so you may now enjoy the myriad benefits to health and sanity that will descend from the practice.

lol my thoughts exactly.

Masturbation is indeed addictive, I don’t care if its healthy to some degree it is also mentally unhealthy to another because most people who are masturbating aren’t masturbating and visualizing nothing… but for the most part are watching PORN… and watching porn for a while will make you look at human being as just something to sleep with, in other words just a piece of meat. You don’t need a bunch of research studies to know something everyone knows, its no big secret that it is addictive… there is a chemical reaction in your brain and if it happens when you are watching porn, the chemical reaction will help condition your brain in associating what you are watching with pleasure and then every time you feel down and out or bored you will seek it…

 

[MarkInOregon]

Is it so hard to understand that exposing children to something far beyond their level is dangerous? I bet most of the people here have been a part of their religion of birth, including the ones who would die for it. As I said, you’ll believe absolutely anything your parents say as a child, no matter how ridiculous. That’s literally all there is to it. When my kid is old enough to think for himself, I’ll show him a variety of religions, with no bias, and ask him if he’s interested in any of them. He’ll be able to learn and view it in a way he could never have done as a child. Did you even watch the video I linked? The mother is shoving religion down his throat, completely altering his perspective on factual evidence, there’s absolutely no question about it.

Is is so hard to understand that your bias clouds your view? You are exposing your child to things you believe are true–whether or not they actually are. You do that at an appropriate level–in math and reading and whatever else you think is good or true–maybe evolution. Maybe that there is no God. I don’t really know. That’s your business not mine. We are doing nothing different.

Teaching our children that we were created by God is not anymore dangerous than telling them they evolved from nothing. By the way being created by God does not preclude evolution just the idea that the world popped into existence out of nothing (and you cannot prove that it did).

Teaching our children that there is such a thing as right and wrong and that there is such a thing as morality is not dangerous. To teach your children that they get to pick and choose what is right and wrong and what is moral–is dangerous–and takes society down a path we don’t want to go down–again I suggest you look at what B4U-ACT is advocating–that’s where this is all is leading–and as a parent I would hope you find that disturbing. When our rights come from the government and not from God–then those rights can be taken away–and you see that in some societies.

If my children grow up to practice their faith and live that faith by attending Mass every Sunday, trying to live the teaching of God as revealed to the Church by trying not to commit sin, going to confession, and by living the faith in serving the poor in soup kitchens, volunteering at homeless shelters, visiting the sick and those in prision, by living a chaste life if they are not married and by being faithful in marriage–how have they harmed you or society? How have they been a danger to you?

You say with no bias–but your bias has already been taught. By not teaching your child about religion–when you have taught him everything else–you have said to him I think these things are false and now after teaching him that you’re going to say but here are their beliefs if you’re interested… You’ve already taught him that these things aren’t important or true in your mind and thats what he’ll believe. You are guilty of the same “crime” that you accuse us off in your high and mighty tone–why is that so hard to understand?

As parents we teach our children what is true at a level that is appropriate to their understanding. We teach them how to think critically and we expose them to other ideas as they grow and can absorb them. No parent can give a child faith–ultimately the child has to do the study and make it their own or chose to leave it–which many do when they are young and naive and wrapped up in self. Today too many parents fail to teach their children anything other than if it feels good do it–take a look at the direction western society is going.

I do wish you well in your parenting.

Peace,
Mark

 

[epan]

Here’s a good source for the Jewish roots of the Catholic and formerly protestant teaching:

rtforum.org/lt/lt67.html

And here’s one about how Protestantism ran right off the tracks:

touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=20-04-020-f

Thanks!

 

[ThePastafarian]

Is is so hard to understand that your bias clouds your view? You are exposing your child to things you believe are true–whether or not they actually are. You do that at an appropriate level–in math and reading and whatever else you think is good or true–maybe evolution. Maybe that there is no God. I don’t really know. That’s your business not mine. We are doing nothing different.

Teaching our children that we were created by God is not anymore dangerous than telling them they evolved from nothing. By the way being created by God does not preclude evolution just the idea that the world popped into existence out of nothing (and you cannot prove that it did).

Teaching our children that there is such a thing as right and wrong and that there is such a thing as morality is not dangerous. To teach your children that they get to pick and choose what is right and wrong and what is moral–is dangerous–and takes society down a path we don’t want to go down–again I suggest you look at what B4U-ACT is advocating–that’s where this is all is leading–and as a parent I would hope you find that disturbing. When our rights come from the government and not from God–then those rights can be taken away–and you see that in some societies.

If my children grow up to practice their faith and live that faith by attending Mass every Sunday, trying to live the teaching of God as revealed to the Church by trying not to commit sin, going to confession, and by living the faith in serving the poor in soup kitchens, volunteering at homeless shelters, visiting the sick and those in prision, by living a chaste life if they are not married and by being faithful in marriage–how have they harmed you or society? How have they been a danger to you?

You say with no bias–but your bias has already been taught. By not teaching your child about religion–when you have taught him everything else–you have said to him I think these things are false and now after teaching him that you’re going to say but here are their beliefs if you’re interested… You’ve already taught him that these things aren’t important or true in your mind and thats what he’ll believe. You are guilty of the same “crime” that you accuse us off in your high and mighty tone–why is that so hard to understand?

As parents we teach our children what is true at a level that is appropriate to their understanding. We teach them how to think critically and we expose them to other ideas as they grow and can absorb them. No parent can give a child faith–ultimately the child has to do the study and make it their own or chose to leave it–which many do when they are young and naive and wrapped up in self. Today too many parents fail to teach their children anything other than if it feels good do it–take a look at the direction western society is going.

I do wish you well in your parenting.

Peace,
Mark

If you’re children grow to think it’s ok to sacrifice themselves in the name of someone who may or may not exist, there is a serious problem. As I said, I wouldn’t teach religion because it’s one of the few subjects that alter the way people view the world. As the expression goes: Friends who want to stay friends don’t discuss religion or politics. Notice the lack of the word clothing, math or reading. It’s dangerous in the soft puddy that is a child’s brain. You mold it, and if you tell him to he better be ready to sacrifice himself in the name of god, you better believe he’s going to do it.

 

[epan]

If you’re children grow to think it’s ok to sacrifice themselves in the name of someone who may or may not exist, there is a serious problem. As I said, I wouldn’t teach religion because it’s one of the few subjects that alter the way people view the world. As the expression goes: Friends who want to stay friends don’t discuss religion or politics. Notice the lack of the word clothing, math or reading. It’s dangerous in the soft puddy that is a child’s brain. You mold it, and if you tell him to he better be ready to sacrifice himself in the name of god, you better believe he’s going to do it.

This is part of why some Protestant denominations wait until a person is an adult, and able to provide consent, before baptism. An infant is unable to provide consent to anything. A child is gullible, and unable to make informed decisions. My family was brought up differently. Baptism into the Catholic Church was given, and catechism at an early age. Once critical thinking was mature enough, choices were allowed.

 

[epan]

Is is so hard to understand that your bias clouds your view? You are exposing your child to things you believe are true–whether or not they actually are. You do that at an appropriate level–in math and reading and whatever else you think is good or true–maybe evolution. Maybe that there is no God. I don’t really know. That’s your business not mine. We are doing nothing different.

Teaching our children that we were created by God is not anymore dangerous than telling them they evolved from nothing. By the way being created by God does not preclude evolution just the idea that the world popped into existence out of nothing (and you cannot prove that it did).

Teaching our children that there is such a thing as right and wrong and that there is such a thing as morality is not dangerous. To teach your children that they get to pick and choose what is right and wrong and what is moral–is dangerous–and takes society down a path we don’t want to go down–again I suggest you look at what B4U-ACT is advocating–that’s where this is all is leading–and as a parent I would hope you find that disturbing. When our rights come from the government and not from God–then those rights can be taken away–and you see that in some societies.

If my children grow up to practice their faith and live that faith by attending Mass every Sunday, trying to live the teaching of God as revealed to the Church by trying not to commit sin, going to confession, and by living the faith in serving the poor in soup kitchens, volunteering at homeless shelters, visiting the sick and those in prision, by living a chaste life if they are not married and by being faithful in marriage–how have they harmed you or society? How have they been a danger to you?

You say with no bias–but your bias has already been taught. By not teaching your child about religion–when you have taught him everything else–you have said to him I think these things are false and now after teaching him that you’re going to say but here are their beliefs if you’re interested… You’ve already taught him that these things aren’t important or true in your mind and thats what he’ll believe. You are guilty of the same “crime” that you accuse us off in your high and mighty tone–why is that so hard to understand?

As parents we teach our children what is true at a level that is appropriate to their understanding. We teach them how to think critically and we expose them to other ideas as they grow and can absorb them. No parent can give a child faith–ultimately the child has to do the study and make it their own or chose to leave it–which many do when they are young and naive and wrapped up in self. Today too many parents fail to teach their children anything other than if it feels good do it–take a look at the direction western society is going.

I do wish you well in your parenting.

Peace,
Mark

I looked at b4u-act. It is an organization promoting help by mental health professionals for pedarasts. Not a bad idea, and far better than how some have handled the problem.

Why do you bring that up in the context of this discussion?

 

[sw85]

Is it so hard to understand that exposing children to something far beyond their level is dangerous? I bet most of the people here have been a part of their religion of birth, including the ones who would die for it. As I said, you’ll believe absolutely anything your parents say as a child, no matter how ridiculous.

I made the decision to become a Catholic about 9-10 months ago after years of careful study and reflection. I had never set foot in a church of any sort until about two years prior to that (and then only because my girlfriend dragged me to one grudgingly). I was raised in a house full of new age hippie types.

I’m aware that this is a popular meme among atheists, “You’re just spouting what your parents tell you!” But can you not see how ludicrously self-serving it is? You’re basically saying everyone’s an idiot except for you, which is pretty much the definition of subclinical narcissism. And it can just as easily be said about you that you’re mindlessly parroting the utilitarian zeitgeist to justify your masturbatory habit.

But notice I’m not saying that, i.e., that you must be wrong because you’re not very well read on these issues and because you’re prejudiced by your environment. I’m saying you’re wrong because you are in fact wrong, and then explaining why. You, your background, your family, etc. have nothing to do with it, all your efforts to psychologize our respective positions notwithstanding. Your ideas have everything to do with it.

Here’s something you said in the OP:

Now, I invite any one of you to come and tell me why I’m wrong

Well, that’s what I’m doing. And your response is “You’re just brainwashed!” which, at least in my case, is obviously not even true. No one ever, at any point, told me to be a Catholic. I was convinced of its truths because I did my homework on it and could see no reason to believe it was false.

Again, as I’ve been saying for some time now, you guys don’t get to claim everyone but you is ignorant and brainwashed when you don’t even know what we believe or why. For Heaven’s sake, the entire reason you came here was because you heard a rumor about Church teachings second-hand and had to Google it to confirm its verity. Now you’re an expert on it? Ordinarily, when confronted with an opposing viewpoint, the prudent thing to do is familiarize yourself with it, understand what people believe and why they believe it. You’ve skipped over that step entirely, which says a lot more about you than it does about Catholicism.

You said earlier this discussion was pointless. You’re right, but it’s pointless because of your obstinate refusal (or is it constitutional inability?) to think outside the extraordinarily narrow confines of your consequentialist worldview. Until you do that, you’re never going to get beyond this "You’re a poopy head!!! " kind of argument you’ve been making so far. I’ve posted some references on the third page to fuller treatments of the Catholic worldview and natural law theory:

– Edward Feser’s *Aquinas *(chapter 5) or The Last Superstition (chapter 4, I think).

– An article written by Feser, available online for free here, called “Natural Law, Natural Rights, and Private Property.”

– Chapter 3 of Natural Moral Law in Contemporary Society, titled “The Metaphysical Foundations of Natural Law.” This is a little more scholarly than Feser’s article above but also a little more thorough. You can find this for free online here.

Read them. Then come back. Then we can dialogue. But, again, you don’t get to claim dialogue is fruitless and that everyone’s an idiot but you when you pigheadedly refuse to engage what we actually believe and instead just feel content to call us names.