Maternal Age as a serious reason to avoid pregnancy

[Bookcat]

And this I find confusing. We are to judge. Will we be held accountable for our judgements? Why can couples arrive at two different decisions? And could one of them be wrong. And if so what is the recourse to right that wrong? Confession? What do you confess?

Honestly this is why NFP is an anomaly in the faith. It is absolutely subjective with the decision as you pointed out belong to the spouses ALONE. Nothing else is like that.

Yes like all of life!

Read all of the following:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a6.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a7.htm

One is to live as a Christian -with a well formed Conscience. We follow Christ - living according to the Teachings of the Church.

Many of those teachings involve objective matters -such as do not murder, do not commit lust, do not use contraception, do not blasphemy, do not commit abortion, attend Mass on the Lords Day and Holy Days, love your spouse etc etc.

Many involve a judgement of how much, what way, when etc. How many cookies is according to the virtue of temperance here and now? how am I to here and now love this person?, should I give to this poor person here and now? do to others what you would want done to you etc. The Virtues assist one in so judging (as they do in life in general).

The judgment regarding the use of the infertile periods for martial relations while avoiding the fertile times - is such as that. Do we have a serious reason? and if so -ought we abstain here and now this month? One must have yes “serious reasons” but that does not mean “life or death” things only. Such matters involve a great deal of contingent realities. The life circumstances of each couple - even from month to month or year to year or place to place or state in life to state in life - will vary greatly.

It is neither an anomaly in the faith nor is it an absolutely subjective judgment.

There is though not “one size fits all” judgment. They must judge such together (with perhaps good counsel)- in conscience before God - in relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions that they are involved in.

One can of course give examples of reasonable serious reasons and those which are not (like one wants to eat lots of more oreos). But life is so varied - one could never exhaust the list.

So much in life is like that - I must judge so much in life “alone before God”. Of course part of prudence is “counsel” - so one can of course seek good counsel on this as other things - say from a good confessor or Pastor etc.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Yes, it is the only situation that I can think of that is so relative. We might arrive at different decisions with the same facts, and both be right. I don’t think that is so bad. My wife and I form a completely different unit than you and your wife. We have a different temperament, different goals, different strengths.

I think that if the husband and wife are honest with themselves and each other and arrive at a decision with well-formed consciences, to paraphrase Pope Francis, who am I to judge?

I also think it’s funny when we discuss ad naseum the correct application of periodic abstinence when so many of our Catholic brothers and sisters are using objectively illicit means to regulate family size. We should get extra credit for just trying to use NFP. (I only say that half tongue in cheek).

I think couples who practice NFP are doing primarily so because they are Catholic and are trying to be obedient to the Church. I would think that they try to remain close to the Church and the Sacraments. I would hope that God guides these couples along the proper path.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes, it is the only situation that I can think of that is so relative. We might arrive at different decisions with the same facts, and both be right. I don’t think that is so bad. My wife and I form a completely different unit than you and your wife. We have a different temperament, different goals, different strengths.

I think that if the husband and wife are honest with themselves and each other and arrive at a decision with well-formed consciences, to paraphrase Pope Francis, who am I to judge?

I also think it’s funny when we discuss ad naseum the correct application of periodic abstinence when so many of our Catholic brothers and sisters are using objectively illicit means to regulate family size. We should get extra credit for just trying to use NFP. (I only say that half tongue in cheek).

Uhhhg I hate when people use that out of context quote from the Pope. Obviously he and the priest in the confessional judge.

And I can accept what you are saying but I am still distrustful of this “new” development in the faith. NFP and it’s employment is new. And I am sure someday it will be further clarified but the Church ALWAYS gives remedy and guidance in moral issues. If I fail to do one of the precepts of the faith, for instance if I don’t go to confession once a year. Or provide for the needs of the Church, or receive the Eucharist during the Easter season I not only have remedy (confession) But I also have guidance. While the Church does not say what or how much you give it does specify that you GIVE.

It is hard to not think the Church is throwing up it’s hands and saying “gee, we are not married, you figure it out” I know that is cynical but sometimes it feels like that.

When the Church rules on sexual issues there is no wiggle room. Masturbation is not left to the person. Polygamy is not accepted. Homosexual adoption is not accepted. The Pope even claimed it is a form of discrimination against children (child abuse) But here She seems to leave us with no recourse to rectify our morality or even form our conscience.

Do you think couples will stand in front of God and be found lacking for their NFP employment?

 

[Bookcat]

And this I find confusing. We are to judge. Will we be held accountable for our judgements? Why can couples arrive at two different decisions? And could one of them be wrong. And if so what is the recourse to right that wrong? Confession? What do you confess?

Honestly this is why NFP is an anomaly in the faith. It is absolutely subjective with the decision as you pointed out belong to the spouses ALONE. Nothing else is like that.

It is neither an anomaly in the faith nor is it an absolutely subjective judgment.

And this I find confusing. We are to judge.

Yes like all of life!

Read all of the following:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a6.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a7.htm

One is to live as a Christian -with a well formed Conscience. We follow Christ - living according to the Teachings of the Church.

Many of those teachings involve objective matters -such as do not murder, do not commit lust, do not use contraception, do not blasphemy, do not commit abortion, attend Mass on the Lords Day and Holy Days, love your spouse etc etc.

Many involve a judgement of how much, what way, when etc. How many cookies is according to the virtue of temperance here and now? how am I to here and now love this person?, should I give to this poor person here and now? do to others what you would want done to you etc. The Virtues assist one in so judging (as they do in life in general).

The judgment regarding the use of the infertile periods for martial relations while avoiding the fertile times - is such as that. Do we have a serious reason? and if so -ought we abstain here and now this month? One must have yes “serious reasons” (that is the criteria) but that does not mean “life or death” things only. Such matters involve a great deal of contingent realities. The life circumstances of each couple - even from month to month or year to year or place to place or state in life to state in life - will vary greatly.

They must judge such together (with perhaps good counsel)- in conscience before God - in relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions that they are involved in.

One can of course give examples of reasonable serious reasons and those which are not (like one wants to eat lots of more oreos). But life is so varied - one could never exhaust the list.

So much in life is like that - I must judge so much in life “alone before God”. Of course part of prudence is “counsel” - so one can of course seek good counsel on this as other things - say from a good confessor or Pastor etc.

Will we be held accountable for our judgements?

Yes -as in all of life.

One is to judge correctly. If one judges a time incorrectly one corrects that judgment for the future.

If one sins (like one does not judge one has a serious reason) -yes one confesses “I used NFP to avoid without a serious reason”

But again - we are talking about when there is sin.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Perhaps it is so hard because it is a decision of 2 souls and 2 consciences. If it were just one then it would be easy but with 2 people with 2 different desires and faiths and abilities it complicates things.

Most of the couples I have seen are rarely in complete synchronization with the decision to have more children. Someone wants it at 90 percent and perhaps the other person is at 40 percent. So in marriage, when 2 are supposed to become 1. When a sacrament is supposed to fuse and intertwine 2 souls together. It is frustrating when the 1 is schizophrenic.

 

[Bookcat]

And this I find confusing. We are to judge. Will we be held accountable for our judgements? Why can couples arrive at two different decisions? And could one of them be wrong. And if so what is the recourse to right that wrong? Confession? What do you confess?

Honestly this is why NFP is an anomaly in the faith. It is absolutely subjective with the decision as you pointed out belong to the spouses ALONE. Nothing else is like that.

It is neither an anomaly in the faith nor is it an absolutely subjective judgment.

And this I find confusing. We are to judge.

Yes like all of life!

Read all of the following:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a6.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a7.htm

One is to live as a Christian -with a well formed Conscience. We follow Christ - living according to the Teachings of the Church.

Many of those teachings involve objective matters -such as do not murder, do not commit lust, do not use contraception, do not blasphemy, do not commit abortion, attend Mass on the Lords Day and Holy Days, love your spouse etc etc.

Many involve a judgement of how much, what way, when etc. How many cookies is according to the virtue of temperance here and now? how am I to here and now love this person?, should I give to this poor person here and now? do to others what you would want done to you etc. The Virtues assist one in so judging (as they do in life in general).

The judgment regarding the use of the infertile periods for martial relations while avoiding the fertile times - is such as that. Do we have a serious reason? and if so -ought we abstain here and now this month? One must have yes “serious reasons” (that is the criteria) but that does not mean “life or death” things only. Such matters involve a great deal of contingent realities. The life circumstances of each couple - even from month to month or year to year or place to place or state in life to state in life - will vary greatly.

They must judge such together (with perhaps good counsel)- in conscience before God - in relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions that they are involved in.

One can of course give examples of reasonable serious reasons and those which are not (like one wants to eat lots of more oreos). But life is so varied - one could never exhaust the list.

So much in life is like that - I must judge so much in life “alone before God”. Of course part of prudence is “counsel” - so one can of course seek good counsel on this as other things - say from a good confessor or Pastor etc.

Will we be held accountable for our judgements?

Yes -as in all of life.

And could one of them be wrong. And if so what is the recourse to right that wrong? Confession? What do you confess?

One is to judge correctly. If one judges a time incorrectly one corrects that judgment for the future.

If one sins (like one does not judge one has a serious reason) -yes one confesses “I used NFP to avoid without a serious reason”

But again - we are talking about when there is sin.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It is neither an anomaly in the faith nor is it an absolutely subjective judgment.

Yes like all of life!

Read all of the following:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a6.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a7.htm

One is to live as a Christian -with a well formed Conscience. We follow Christ - living according to the Teachings of the Church.

Many of those teachings involve objective matters -such as do not murder, do not commit lust, do not use contraception, do not blasphemy, do not commit abortion, attend Mass on the Lords Day and Holy Days, love your spouse etc etc.

Many involve a judgement of how much, what way, when etc. How many cookies is according to the virtue of temperance here and now? how am I to here and now love this person?, should I give to this poor person here and now? do to others what you would want done to you etc. The Virtues assist one in so judging (as they do in life in general).

The judgment regarding the use of the infertile periods for martial relations while avoiding the fertile times - is such as that. Do we have a serious reason? and if so -ought we abstain here and now this month? One must have yes “serious reasons” (that is the criteria) but that does not mean “life or death” things only. Such matters involve a great deal of contingent realities. The life circumstances of each couple - even from month to month or year to year or place to place or state in life to state in life - will vary greatly.

They must judge such together (with perhaps good counsel)- in conscience before God - in relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions that they are involved in.

One can of course give examples of reasonable serious reasons and those which are not (like one wants to eat lots of more oreos). But life is so varied - one could never exhaust the list.

So much in life is like that - I must judge so much in life “alone before God”. Of course part of prudence is “counsel” - so one can of course seek good counsel on this as other things - say from a good confessor or Pastor etc.

Yes -as in all of life.

So which teachings do we follow? Go forth and multiply spoken by God directly. Or periodic abstinence in favor of “responsible” parenthood with the meaning of “responsible parenthood” open to any interpretation you wish.

What is the argument for the call to responsible parenthood based on third world countries. Is starvation responsible? Is poverty responsible. And getting back to the OT. Where life expectancy is significantly lower should the age at which a couple discerns to bring forth life also be lower? A 40 year old mother in the US has a better chance of seeing her son turn 18 than a 35 year old Iraqi woman. So why can the US mother discern not to become a mother at that age based on statistics?

 

[Bookcat]

So which teachings do we follow? Go forth and multiply spoken by God directly. Or periodic abstinence in favor of “responsible” parenthood with the meaning of “responsible parenthood” open to any interpretation you wish.

Both. The one includes the other.

232.The family contributes to the social good in an eminent fashion through responsible motherhood and fatherhood, the spouses’ special participation in God’s work of creation[519]. The weight of this responsibility must not be used as a justification for being selfishly closed but must guide the decisions of the spouses in a generous acceptance of life. “In relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised both in the duly pondered and generous decision to have a large family, and in the decision, made for serious reasons and in respect of the moral law, to avoid for a time or even indeterminately a new birth”[520]. The motivations that should guide the couple in exercising responsible motherhood and fatherhood originate in the full recognition of their duties towards God, towards themselves, towards the family and towards society in a proper hierarchy of values.​

But such is NOT “open to any interpretation you wish”.

 

[PaulinVA]

Uhhhg I hate when people use that out of context quote from the Pope. Obviously he and the priest in the confessional judge.

But, this is exactly the context the Pope used it in. If you are seeking the right path, and doing your best, with a well-formed conscience, what more can the Church ask?

Do you think couples will stand in front of God and be found lacking for their NFP employment?

I don’t know. I think judgement is a complicated thing. If you are led astray by a Priest or Deacon, as an example, I think your culpability is lessened, and they take on the burden of false teaching.

I think the way it would play out for a couple that thought they were sincerely using NFP to avoid for serious reasons but the reasons weren’t serious would be that you have some unconfessed wrong doing you didn’t know about. Jesus died for that sin as well as the ones you confessed. So, what happens? I don’t know. I’m going to throw myself at Christ’s feet and beg for mercy.

 

[Bookcat]

I think the way it would play out for a couple that thought they were sincerely using NFP to avoid for serious reasons but the reasons weren’t serious would be that you have some unconfessed wrong doing you didn’t know about.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a6.htm

One forms ones conscience according to the Teaching of the Church - one seeks to do good and avoid evil. One seeks counsel if need be -does the good they judge.

Persons can make honest -good faith mistakes - misjudgments. Such happens at times despite our circumspection.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I
If one sins (like one does not judge one has a serious reason) -yes one confesses “I used NFP to avoid without a serious reason”

But again - we are talking about when there is sin.

Ok I have personally confessed using NFP. And you agree that a serious reason could be different for each separate couple. For instance. Perhaps age CAN be a serious reason. But one does not HAVE to abstain because of it. Or financially supplying a quality education CAN be a serious reason in the US but a couple in a poorer country decides to have a child. How does one determine when it becomes sinful. What is a “serious” reason. And how cna it be different for each person?

 

[Bookcat]

Ok I have personally confessed using NFP. And you agree that a serious reason could be different for each separate couple. For instance. Perhaps age CAN be a serious reason. But one does not HAVE to abstain because of it. Or financially supplying a quality education CAN be a serious reason in the US but a couple in a poorer country decides to have a child. How does one determine when it becomes sinful. What is a “serious” reason. And how cna it be different for each person?

One judges in conscience - do we have a serious reason? Yes or no? It becomes sinful when one does not judge there to be a serious reason.

(Or say there is a some other wrongful motive - like a couple has a serious reason but the husband is motivated solely by the reason that he wants to collect cars or something (I would collect books…not cars…but anyhow…) -that would be the example of a bad intention).

As I noted in the longer post above - yes what is judge by one couple in their circumstances and life to be a serious reason - might be judged not to be for another. There is much that is contingent here.

The “how can it be different” has much to to with the different *contingent *aspects involved.

Just as what I judge to be contrary to temperance in eating may be judged not to be for say some really big guy who needs more to eat! Or is at a celebration etc.

Also note - can be “serious reasons” but one judges they are they do not mean that one must abstain here and now? Sure. Where they may either abstain for that serious reason or set it aside? Sure. Other serious reasons can be more lets say “compelling”. Where one ought to abstain.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m just trying to catch up with the thread. Apologies for any late thoughts.

MomaMary8 said:

“Dear Xantippe, I think the bold part above is the root of your view toward maternal age/large families. Your mother sounds to be a poor example of mothering. (I’m sorry, I do not intend to offend you or your mother.) Don’t blame the birth of your brother for your mother’s poor way to deal with you and her willingness to fight with her child. I would blame building a new house over having a brother. Or better yet, blame sin.”

My sister and I have blamed our mom plenty over the years, but now that I am roughly at the stage of life she was at that point, I understand the situation better. It’s really only now that I’ve put two and two together and realized that she was overwhelmed, which was why there was such a dramatic decline in the quality of her parenting. Maybe she could have coped with just two kids and a house construction project, or just three kids in a rental, but having three kids (school age, big preschooler and a newborn) and a house building project spread her too thin. (We were living in the new house from the time the roof was on, even before there were working toilets or a working kitchen, let alone actual beds and my mom had a lot of responsibilities with regard to finishing the house.)

Now that I have an 11-year-old daughter of my own, I certainly appreciate the difficulties of having a daughter that age, but I’m hoping that being able to bring more resources to bear, that we’ll have a better relationship than my mom and I did then. What I understand now is that relationships are like bank accounts, and if you want to take money out, you have to be putting money in. I have to keep making deposits to my relationship with my daughter (positive time together) in order to cover the times when I’m making withdrawals (keeping her on task on her homework or having her do chores). Unfortunately, when I was that age, my mom did not have the time or the energy to make those deposits, and our relationship wound up overdrawn. I feel like we have a good relationship now (I was just having a nice chat with her), but that was not always true.

Another biographical issue is that my mom developed cancer in her early 40s and had to have aggressive treatment (chemotherapy, mastectomy, etc.). If my life follows that pattern, I’m due for breast cancer in 3 years or so. Needless to say, cancer treatment is not great for unborn babies.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

But, this is exactly the context the Pope used it in. If you are seeking the right path, and doing your best, with a well-formed conscience, what more can the Church ask?.

That is not the context in which it was used. Pope Francis was clearly identifying that the homosexual in question needed to be living a Christian life. It does not apply AT ALL to how people, including you, have used it. It is perhaps one of the most unfortunate hijackings of a Pope’s message in history.

wdtprs.com/blog/2014/02/who-am-i-to-judge-thrown-in-your-face-fr-z-says-dont-let-them-get-away-with-it/

There’s a lot of talk about the gay lobby, but I’ve never seen it on the Vatican ID card.

When I meet a gay person, I have to distinguish between their being gay and being part of a lobby. If they accept the Lord and have goodwill, who am I to judge them? They shouldn’t be marginalized. **The tendency is not the problem **… they’re our brothers.

I cannot stress enough how much he was talking about the TENDENCY of homosexuals. He was dead on Catholic Theology. Homosexual tendencies are not immoral. He DOES judge the actions however. If you like guys, who am I to judge what you are attracted to. However I am to judge the actions.

This was seized upon by homosexual activists and moral relativists to advance their agenda.

Please, stop using the Pope’s words against the very faith he is the leader of.

This is the same man who called homosexual marriage an abomination and likened homosexual adoption to child abuse. So there is some sort of “judgement” going on there. Not only that but every priest cannot just answer “who am I to Judge” when you walk in and confess any multitude of sins. (though I have been to some priests that seem to take this attitude.)

 

[Rau]

Also note - can be “serious reasons” but one judges they are they do not mean that one must abstain here and now? Sure. Where they may either abstain for that serious reason or set it aside? Sure. Other serious reasons can be more lets say “compelling”. Where one ought to abstain.

If we are called to “responsible parenthood”, does this suggest that choosing not to abstain can be a wrong choice?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

If we are called to “responsible parenthood”, does this suggest that choosing not to abstain can be a wrong choice?

This is in essence my question. This is the one I cannot find the consistency of logic behind.

 

[Bookcat]

If we are called to “responsible parenthood”, does this suggest that choosing not to abstain can be a wrong choice?

Yes at times.

Example: wife needs some serious treatment for something and she ought not be pregnant during it.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes at times.

Example: wife needs some immediate serious treatment for something and she ought not be pregnant during it.

Is it irresponsible parenthood to being a child into poverty or war? Or bring a child into a world that is less than healthy? There was a thread recently that talked of American Welfare being an irresponsible parenting choice. So if that is true then, certainly Africa should not be procreating. Right?

 

[mommamaree]

Is it irresponsible parenthood to being a child into poverty or war? Or bring a child into a world that is less than healthy? There was a thread recently that talked of American Welfare being an irresponsible parenting choice. So if that is true then, certainly Africa should not be procreating. Right?

I would object to those conclusions. For one, that sounds a lot like privileged folks saying that there are too many brown people in the world, which is exactly what Margaret Sanger et al would say. For another, each couple is supposed to decide for themselves, and that means that we should not be sitting around deciding who should or should not be allowed to procreate.

Edited to add: America has an unfortunate and dark history of racism and eugenics. It did not go away, it just got repackaged as “compassionately” advocating for “choice”. I think Catholics should outright reject any speculation about which “other people” should not be procreating.

 

[Bookcat]

Is it irresponsible parenthood to being a child into poverty or war?

Perhaps at times.

There is no “one size fits all” for such.

Contingent aspects abound.