Maternal Age as a serious reason to avoid pregnancy

[mommamaree]

Lifeisbeautiful,
I was not asking about how to form my conscience. My questions about discernment were, of course, rhetorical.

To the thread at large:
I already have four children. I am pregnant with my fifth. I have had two miscarriages. All within slightly less than a decade. My practice of NFP has been limited to a few months after the birth of my third and two months after the birth of my fourth.
Not only have I had an opportunity to study the catechism, but I also teach it to my children on a daily basis, using an excellent curriculum approved by our priest.
I should hope that this context will finally suffice when I reassert my view.

If a woman KNOWS she, personally, cannot physically, emotionally, spiritually, or psychologically handle another pregnancy, she IS RIGHT TO SAY “I am done”. Her recourse to NFP would be just, because she has serious reasons. Considering how taxing and traumatic pregnancy/childbirth can be, especially for some women, it would be the appropriate and sane thing to do to acknowledge when her limit is reached. She is not asked to continue being “generous” is childbearing until her womb falls out and she requires a hysterectomy, or her ability to keep up is surpassed by the number of children (my children, for example, are not docile little lambs). She is the one in her own skin, living in her body, and if she sees evidence that another pregnancy or two might just permanently damage her, but that she retains relatively good health if she stops now, it is prudent to stop now.
I do not understand why every time I assert the honest truth that a woman can acknowledge she is at her limit, my post is rebutted. It really makes me wonder where is the compassion? We are speaking after all, of a faithful Catholic wife using a morally licit option for family planning.

 

[Rico_S]

My oldest child has an eye condition that has lead to 6 eye surgeries (I think, I tend to lose count. He also had a few ear surgeries.) We were told we had a 25% (1 in 4) chance of another child having the same condition. Each pregnancy had a 1 in 4 chance. None of our other 9 children have this eye condition.

This is a great example! So what was the statistical chance, give that there was a 1 in 4 chance of having this eye condition, that she would have 9 children without the eye condition?
So with a positive outcome 3/4 of the time we have… 3/43/43/43/43/43/43/43/43/4= 7.5%

 

[PaulinVA]

I do not understand why every time I assert the honest truth that a woman can acknowledge she is at her limit, my post is rebutted. It really makes me wonder where is the compassion? We are speaking after all, of a faithful Catholic wife using a morally licit option for family planning.

I think, to a certain extent, everyone posting is trying to justify their own position, and trying to win people over the “their side”. Sometimes that leads to hurt feelings.

I agree with you, as I’ve posted on this thread many times. Most of us reach our limit before menopause.

Rico - I am not up on cumulative statistics. When I get on a plane, I just pray the wings don’t fall off.

 

[Bookcat]

When I get on a plane, I just pray the wings don’t fall off.

Hum…may want to add the engine to your prayers…and that your baggage arrives safely!

 

[bitterhope]

Yes and no. Yes each individual event is when viewed by itself is 1 in a hundred. But…if viewed as a succession of events, that number changes.

Flipping a coin is the easiest way to demonstrate this. Chance of landing on heads is 50%. Let’s say I flip a coin twice and it lands on heads twice…then what is the chance of the next flip being heads? 50%–like you said. My prior flip results have no bearing on the stats for the next flip.

But if we go back to before I flipped the coin at all and asked, what is the chance of landing on heads 3 times in a row…the answer is clearly not 50%. In fact it is 1/21/21/2 which is 12.5%. If you have an event that is 1/100 chance of happening, what is the chance of having a good outcome 10 times in a row? It isn’t 99%. I know it doesn’t matter much, and perhaps this is what you meant and I misunderstood—I just thought I would comment.

And really, I don’t see how generic car fatality statistics can really be compared to a single event statistic like a pregnancy. It just sort of muddles things up and confuses, imo.

This is not correct. Each pregnancy is just that–an individual event. A 1in 100 chance for one pregnancy is again a 1in 100 chance for the next pregnancy. A 1 in 4 chance will be 1in 4 for each pregnancy. It does not change regardless of how many children are born into a family.

 

[PaulinVA]

Hum…may want to add the engine to your prayers…and that your baggage arrives safely!

With wings, at least you can glide!

 

[PaulinVA]

Serious Reason.

Compendium of Catholic Answers:

1. What kind of reason is needed in a thread to post once the posts have reached 550?

A serious reason to post past 550 is required. It falls though to the poster with a well formed conscience to judge if something in their contingent circumstances may be a serious reason or not. However posting is an action of a public and manifest nature, thus is open to public comment and fraternal correction.



(NB:The Church of course uses the term “serious reason” to denote for example the reason needed to make use of only infertile times – the serious reason to post past 550 need not be of that nature)

I prefer the answer on EWIN (Eternal Word Internet for Noobs) which states that, at certain times in the history of the Internet, 300, 400, and even 200 posts have been the limit where serious/just reasons are needed. Taking tradition into account, I think that 550 is just too many posts before serious reasons are needed.

I am off to check Father Y’s blog to see what he might say about this.

 

[Bookcat]

I prefer the answer on EWIN (Eternal Word Internet for Noobs) which states that, at certain times in the history of the Internet, 300, 400, and even 200 posts have been the limit where serious/just reasons are needed. Taking tradition into account, I think that 550 is just too many posts before serious reasons are needed.

I am off to check Father Y’s blog to see what he might say about this.

Thankfully Catholic Answers is not about opinion --but about authoritative answers.

And they have the final say -tis their forum.

 

[Bookcat]

With wings, at least you can glide!

Not if the engine goes BOOM with a very big BOOM

 

[PaulinVA]

Thankfully Catholic Answers is not about opinion --but about authoritative answers.

And they have the final say -tis their forum.

Grumble Grumble. Oh, okay.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Lifeisbeautiful,
I was not asking about how to form my conscience. My questions about discernment were, of course, rhetorical.

I was addressing the comment on how to figure out God’s will and posting the relevant text in those encyclicals (form our conscience correctly to find out what is best, and aim for best/perfection).

We all agree that if a couple has discerned they have serious reasons to avoid, they can do it for however long they need to, including until their fertility is gone. If the problem is something they know that is going to last until their fertility is gone, they can expect that they are done (if the problem surprisingly changes, things may change, but assuming it is persistent). No one is rebutting that. Mentioning the need to discern reasons does not equal suggesting: women are breeders, women have to have babies until their uterus falls out, NFP is never ok, NFP is only for people who will die otherwise… etc etc etc…
Can a woman say she truly believes she is too old to have kids past age 29 because she knows she wants to be younger when they leave the house? Can a couple say they are done forever because one is enough, and no one can love more than one correctly? Those are some examples of (unsolicited) explanations people have given me as to why they were done completely. They have the right to say they are done, that they know themselves and do not want any more. But, that is why I was saying it isn’t really about having the right to say we are done. You are correct, God gives us the liberty to say so, heck, He even gives us the liberty to not have any children at all by obstruction if we want to, but true freedom is seeking His will and trying to have ours match His. Which is why I addressed your comment about how can we figure out His will (which took me a while to figure out as a cradle Catholic, so I thought it was worth posting some encyclicals that address it). We correctly form our conscience, and aim to do the holiest option. And yes, we are sinners and fall short, but we keep trying. This goes with parenthood as with any other aspect of life.

 

[Xantippe]

Bitterhope said:

“This is not correct. Each pregnancy is just that–an individual event. A 1in 100 chance for one pregnancy is again a 1in 100 chance for the next pregnancy. A 1 in 4 chance will be 1in 4 for each pregnancy. It does not change regardless of how many children are born into a family.”

You’re right that each pregnancy is an individual event, just as a coin has no memory. It doesn’t remember that it was heads or tails last time. Hence, the fact that so far the family has won the jackpot and achieved a result that only happens 7.5% of the time does not have any implications as to a future pregnancy. A future pregnancy still has the exact same 1 in 4 risk.

However, when you have a large number of individual events (coin flips or pregnancies), it is possible to make reasonable predictions for that large number of events. If I flip a coin 10 times, I would expect to flip heads at least once (although I know that it is possible for the coin to flip to tails 10 times in a row). It’s not a guarantee, but there is a reasonable expectation. Likewise, if I had 10 children, knowing that the chance of the serious eye condition is 1 in 4, it would be reasonable to expect that at least one of those children is going to have the eye condition.

 

[Rico_S]

This is not correct. Each pregnancy is just that–an individual event. A 1in 100 chance for one pregnancy is again a 1in 100 chance for the next pregnancy. A 1 in 4 chance will be 1in 4 for each pregnancy. It does not change regardless of how many children are born into a family.

I think you misunderstood me. I did not say that the chance changes for any single event…I thought that was clear in my coin example.

 

[maryelisabeth]

I thought this thread was about fear of abnormalities that increase with maternal age as a “serious reason” for avoiding pregnancy, not with whether serious reasons exist or not. I don’t believe fear is a good reason to act or not to act, especially concerning having a child. “Serious reasons” need to be grounded in reality, which is left to the couple to decide. Only Love, not fear, can guide one properly

 

[christopher_r]

On other threads it as been stated that each couple must decide for themselves, but how could you possibly determine this? I need some more concrete advice!! Could we handle a baby with a genetic problem? How could we possibly know this without experiencing it? Would I feel guilty for purposely conceiving a baby with lifelong struggles when well aware of the increased risks? Most definitely - especially when others would view it as imprudent!!! But why are we fertile well past 35 if conception should be avoided?? It sickens me to think of NFP for the next 10 years or so.

This is indeed challenging. You have many responsibilities and competing goods and challenges. Clearly, you have organized your family and loved much to manage a household with 9 people (+pets if any). You have a community you and your husband lead and nourish.

Consider making several lists of the consequences of attempting another pregnancy and follow each consequence with the things that result from that (some good, some challenging). If you do this for a while through several levels also noting where the consequences of one choice interact with those of other choices you get to observe in an organized way the big picture with much more clarity. There is a good book that describes this methodology. Dialogue Mapping: Building Shared Understanding of Wicked Problems by Conklin, Jeff. This is not a religious approach but it can easily bring in the religious values that we share. There is free soft ware CMAPS that is useful in making the map of this complex space. Or, you can do it on a large sheet of paper with postits.

Difficult decision require tools that let us keep more information well organized and share these thoughts with our stakeholders.

May you find your best path
Peace

 

[InspiritCarol]

Difficult decision require tools that let us keep more information well organized and share these thoughts with our stakeholders.

May you find your best path
Peace

This is well said; but it lacks the most important component that all 15+ of the 39 or so pages of posts that I have looked at lack:

prayer.

Prayer is the best answer to any dilemma, and the most difficult to do.

Here I sit at age 42, now 26 weeks along in my 10th pregnancy with 5 living children (counting 1 in utero).
I can’t begin to imagine the grace I would have denied myself if I had stopped after tribulation or if I stopped because it seemed(s) like everyone in the world was/is telling me not to.

The tree lost in this forest of justification that we are talking about is a child. Period. Should you allow yourself to have that child that God wills for you? Yes. No statistics or rational, or anything that has come before matters.

Does God will that for you? That is where it comes down to being between you and God. Period.

What’s the best/only way to figure that out? Real, honest to goodness, sacrificial, fasting and penance prayer. Not the “Gee God, show me a sign” kind of prayer. I’m talking the real commit years of your life, hours of your day, be there with Him: Prayer.

Anything less than this is just striving after wind: justify, justify, justify.

 

[mommamaree]

What’s the best/only way to figure that out? Real, honest to goodness, sacrificial, fasting and penance prayer. Not the “Gee God, show me a sign” kind of prayer. I’m talking the real commit years of your life, hours of your day, be there with Him: Prayer.

Anything less than this is just striving after wind: justify, justify, justify.

I guess I am just a bad Catholic, then, because at this stage of my life, elbow deep in diapers, up all night for nursing/teething baby, currently pregnant with my 5th baby, and trying and failing to “be content” in this season of trials, I will not even consider spending hours of my day, years of my life, in sacrifice, fasting and penance, to make the decision of whether to have another child or not. And I am certain it will be YEARS before such a prayer life would even be possible. So, I will just have to continue to justify, as you put it, because anything better is simply out of my reach.

On another note, congratulations on your pregnancy. That is wonderful news.

 

[Xantippe]

Yeah, fasting + breastfeeding or fasting + pregnancy is a really bad plan (which is why it’s not required for Ash Wednesday or Good Friday).

Fasting + small children isn’t that great either, but it’s a little more feasible. I just barely made it through Ash Wednesday and Good Friday this year with my 1-year-old. It was a long, long day, though, and there might have been a meltdown or two both times (and it wasn’t the toddler melting down).

 

[christopher_r]

This is well said; but it lacks the most important component that all 15+ of the 39 or so pages of posts that I have looked at lack:

prayer.

Prayer is the best answer to any dilemma, and the most difficult to do.

Here I sit at age 42, now 26 weeks along in my 10th pregnancy with 5 living children (counting 1 in utero).
I can’t begin to imagine the grace I would have denied myself if I had stopped after tribulation or if I stopped because it seemed(s) like everyone in the world was/is telling me not to.

The tree lost in this forest of justification that we are talking about is a child. Period. Should you allow yourself to have that child that God wills for you? Yes. No statistics or rational, or anything that has come before matters.

Does God will that for you? That is where it comes down to being between you and God. Period.

What’s the best/only way to figure that out? Real, honest to goodness, sacrificial, fasting and penance prayer. Not the “Gee God, show me a sign” kind of prayer. I’m talking the real commit years of your life, hours of your day, be there with Him: Prayer.

Anything less than this is just striving after wind: justify, justify, justify.

 

[christopher_r]

This is well said; but it lacks the most important component that all 15+ of the 39 or so pages of posts that I have looked at lack:

prayer.

Prayer is the best answer to any dilemma, and the most difficult to do.

Here I sit at age 42, now 26 weeks along in my 10th pregnancy with 5 living children (counting 1 in utero).
I can’t begin to imagine the grace I would have denied myself if I had stopped after tribulation or if I stopped because it seemed(s) like everyone in the world was/is telling me not to.

The tree lost in this forest of justification that we are talking about is a child. Period. Should you allow yourself to have that child that God wills for you? Yes. No statistics or rational, or anything that has come before matters.

Does God will that for you? That is where it comes down to being between you and God. Period.

What’s the best/only way to figure that out? Real, honest to goodness, sacrificial, fasting and penance prayer. Not the “Gee God, show me a sign” kind of prayer. I’m talking the real commit years of your life, hours of your day, be there with Him: Prayer.

Anything less than this is just striving after wind: justify, justify, justify.

I regret that prayer was not more explicit. This is how I do my active prayer of thinking and exploring for the truth. There are other important prayer modes and they should be followed (keeping notes is useful there also if not intrusive).

Organizing our understanding from prayer and thinking is important in practicing prudence.