Maternal Age as a serious reason to avoid pregnancy

[gardenswithkids]

Since I asked this question in another thread, I would like to restate the details since this topic is a big one for me right now. I am 37 and hubby is 39. … Basically my only reason for not having another baby is age!

On other threads it as been stated that each couple must decide for themselves, but how could you possibly determine this? I need some more concrete advice!! Could we handle a baby with a genetic problem? How could we possibly know this without experiencing it? Would I feel guilty for purposely conceiving a baby with lifelong struggles when well aware of the increased risks? Most definitely - especially when others would view it as imprudent!!! But why are we fertile well past 35 if conception should be avoided?? It sickens me to think of NFP for the next 10 years or so.

I intended to respond to this sooner, but carpool duty and other family responsibilities kept me away until now. In less than a day this thread already has 70-something posts!

My mom was in her 40’s when I was born. I have no obvious defects. My sister has no obvious defects. We’re highly functional; my sister is exceptionally intelligent.

Not only did our parents have children later in life, but my sister and I both went onto have children in our 40’s. My family would be much smaller if I had stopped having children at 37! I had one complicated pregnancy in my late 30’s. I’ve had two miscarriages and the first miscarriage was a time of spiritual growth. Except for the miscarriages, all my children are in good health. One has some struggles with academics, but he works very hard and does okay. Most of our children weren’t “planned”–at least not planned by my husband and me. I like to think God planned them from way back when He was making His plans for the world.

In many ways I’m a better parent now than I was when I was younger. In any case, I’m a little different. I’m more patient. Maybe that’s because I don’t have as much energy so I don’t waste my energy on things that don’t matter. We are in a much better financial situation than we were when we were in our 20’s. Younger parents usually have energy and youth in their favor; older parents often have wisdom and greater financial security in their favor.

There seems to be this perception that having a child late in life practically guarantees the child will have a good chance of being an idiot or have something seriously wrong. That’s offensive. It’s also offensive to assume that a child who does have a low IQ, or a genetic abnormality or some other disability is less worthy of a chance at life. If God gives you such a child, then I believe He will give you the strength to deal with such a child. And there are far worse things in life than having struggles.

We are not just the children of older parents–we are the children of God! The One Who is every ancient, ever new, is Our Father. I write this from the perspective of a child of older parents.I was more open to having children when I was older because I was born to older parents who taught me this famous Bible quote, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” I am* very happy *that my parents gave me a chance at life!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I intended to respond to this sooner, but carpool duty and other family responsibilities kept me away until now. In less than a day this thread already has 70-something posts!

My mom was in her 40’s when I was born. I have no obvious defects. My sister has no obvious defects. We’re highly functional; my sister is exceptionally intelligent.

Not only did our parents have children later in life, but my sister and I both went onto have children in our 40’s. My family would be much smaller if I had stopped having children at 37! I had one complicated pregnancy in my late 30’s. I’ve had two miscarriages and the first miscarriage was a time of spiritual growth. Except for the miscarriages, all my children are in good health. One has some struggles with academics, but he works very hard and does okay. Most of our children weren’t “planned”–at least not planned by my husband and me. I like to think God planned them from way back when He was making His plans for the world.

In many ways I’m a better parent now than I was when I was younger. In any case, I’m a little different. I’m more patient. Maybe that’s because I don’t have as much energy so I don’t waste my energy on things that don’t matter. We are in a much better financial situation than we were when we were in our 20’s. Younger parents usually have energy and youth in their favor; older parents often have wisdom and greater financial security in their favor.

There seems to be this perception that having a child late in life practically guarantees the child will have a good chance of being an idiot or have something seriously wrong. That’s offensive. It’s also offensive to assume that a child who does have a low IQ, or a genetic abnormality or some other disability is less worthy of a chance at life. If God gives you such a child, then I believe He will give you the strength to deal with such a child. And there are far worse things in life than having struggles.

We are not just the children of older parents–we are the children of God! The One Who is every ancient, ever new, is Our Father. I write this from the perspective of a child of older parents.I was more open to having children when I was older because I was born to older parents who taught me this famous Bible quote, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” I am* very happy *that my parents gave me a chance at life!

:clapping::clapping:

Just drop the mic and walk away…

 

[Rau]

While I am certain age can be a legitimate concern for a couple to use NFP to avoid, we cannot use it as a certainty or universal reason for a couple to avoid conception after a certain age or even with certain risks. As far as I know the Church does not change the wedding promises after a certain age. We still accept children lovingly from God.

I must say I never interpreted this as an instruction to have sex at certain times or to not avoid at certain times. Just to accept what may come (whenever they may come). And as you say, it certainly does not argue against a couple avoiding if they are concerned about risks. I also agree that age is not an automatic “just” reason for everyone.

 

[Rau]

24 years to conceive and to avoid.

What is the sin? I’m curious. Is it that without a serious/just reason you didn’t have sex often enough, or you didn’t produce enough babies?

Now, I do understand, and acknowledge, that the Church says that a couple has to have “just” or “serious” reasons to regulate births. But, when is the actual sin committed? Is it a sin of omission?

If there is any sin, it is not so much attached to the absence of child-bearing, or the restraint in engaging in sex, but to that which you did do with your time and your resources. Did you help the poor? Did you educate and nurture your children? Did you enrich yourself?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

24 years to conceive and to avoid.

What is the sin? I’m curious. Is it that without a serious/just reason you didn’t have sex often enough, or you didn’t produce enough babies?

Now, I do understand, and acknowledge, that the Church says that a couple has to have “just” or “serious” reasons to regulate births. But, when is the actual sin committed? Is it a sin of omission?

Well of course we have to understand that sin did exist. Because I was forgiven for it. I was counseled on it and I was in communication about it with a priest familiar with NFP and the situation.

I cannot speak for others but I can try to tell you what was personally sinful for my wife and I. We used NFP, every single month copulating only in infertile times on purpose to avoid having a child. See, NFP is not a single moment. You know that if you practice it. It is not a single decision to not do something at an exact moment. It is an ongoing process. A way of life and sex that has a purpose, to either avoid or not. For years we chose to not have sex in sheer defiance to the purpose of our marriage. Gee honey, should we have sex tonight?" “no we don’t want to be pregnant in hawaii.”
How about this month? Where are we in our cycle? We had sex three weeks ago but not this week because WE DO NOT WANT KIDS RIGHT NOW. " Why?" gotta earn more money, gotta get bigger cars, want a bigger house" don’t like changing diapers."
“I just never picture me with a large family” I wanted 1 or two kids… or none…

I want to enjoy the unitive but control the procreative, not justly, not in prudence or God’s direction but in my own perceived view of how I want to be a creator a god who decided who and how many exist.

Once, though money was never really an issue we didn’t want to conceive because we would have had to pay a deductible twice. (you know if you get preggers past march you will pay deductibles in 2 different years.

Uh when a priests asks you in the confessional what your reasons for avoiding are and you reply “deductibles” it is quite evident you are sinning selfishly.

 

[Xantippe]

Rau said:

“If there is any sin, it is not so much attached to the absence of child-bearing, or the restraint in engaging in sex, but to that which you did do with your time and your resources. Did you help the poor? Did you educate and nurture your children? Did you enrich yourself?”

That is a very good point.

If, for instance, a couple donated 20% of their income and gave generously of their time to others, should we call them selfish for only having two children?

I understand that there are scenarios where couples are 1) well-off, 2) materialistic and 3) have a small family while a different couple might be 1) of moderate means 2) generous to others and 3) have a lot of kids (in fact I’m thinking of an example of the latter right now), but it occurs to me that we generally don’t know others’ finances well enough to know what their charitable giving is. I know what ours is, and I have a feeling that a rich Protestant aunt and uncle of mine with two grown kids are very generous, but beyond that, I’m realizing that I have no clue what others do or don’t do.

 

[Xantippe]

HoosierDaddy said:

“no we don’t want to be pregnant in hawaii.”
How about this month? Where are we in our cycle? We had sex three weeks ago but not this week because WE DO NOT WANT KIDS RIGHT NOW. " Why?" gotta earn more money, gotta get bigger cars, want a bigger house" don’t like changing diapers.""

I’m having a really hard time relating to this scenario, because we waited 3+ years while my husband was in grad school (total household income around $20k or so, including my contributions) and then tried for our first baby as soon as he had a job offer. There was no Hawaii, no Italy, no car (we got our first when we had two kids), no house (we bought our first house last year right around our 15th anniversary when we had three kids), no nothing. (OK, we did do a pretty cool business trip/meet the grandmas/see sister trip to Central Europe as a sort of delayed honeymoon, but we stayed mostly with family and had otherwise fairly basic accommodation.) Very few people (especially young people just starting out, who are normally practically hogtied with student loans) have access to the sort of stuff you’re talking to.

 

[Perlita]

My mother had her last 3 children at age 40, 42, 44…I am the one of 42. When I was 41 God blessed us with our 4 son, we call him " the icing on the cake". My father in law started to call me “saint Anna”…I believe we have to confide in the Divine Providence…and learn to accept even if the things are not what we wanted. (Excuse my english)

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

HoosierDaddy said:

“no we don’t want to be pregnant in hawaii.”
How about this month? Where are we in our cycle? We had sex three weeks ago but not this week because WE DO NOT WANT KIDS RIGHT NOW. " Why?" gotta earn more money, gotta get bigger cars, want a bigger house" don’t like changing diapers.""

I’m having a really hard time relating to this scenario, because we waited 3+ years while my husband was in grad school (total household income around $20k or so, including my contributions) and then tried for our first baby as soon as he had a job offer. There was no Hawaii, no Italy, no car (we got our first when we had two kids), no house (we bought our first house last year right around our 15th anniversary when we had three kids), no nothing. (OK, we did do a pretty cool business trip/meet the grandmas/see sister trip to Central Europe as a sort of delayed honeymoon, but we stayed mostly with family and had otherwise fairly basic accommodation.) Very few people (especially young people just starting out, who are normally practically hogtied with student loans) have access to the sort of stuff you’re talking to.

I never said you or any other individual person had my scenario only that it existed and in the 100s of couples we knew through NFP it existed often,

Early in our marriage we used ABC so of course it didn’t apply. However grad school is stlll on our list in our thirties with 4 kids…

 

[Rau]

As posters continually point out on this kind of thread, the Church has no clear teaching. But what the Church does state is we must be generous with our decisions in amount of children. We are not supposed to set a cut off date or a cut off limit. Setting age AS THE SOLE factor would be setting a cut off date. The Church does not say that NFP is to be used unless a couple has just reasons to conceive. The Church says that NFP MAY be used if a couple has just reasons to avoid.

If the age cutoff were to be set arbitrarily, you’d be right. But if, for a couple, they reach an age whereby in their judgement, the risks of of medical problems are higher than they can cope with, then age, for them, is a Just reason.

 

[Rau]

And I still say that no it is not. Not actively using NFP to avoid is not the same thing as attempting to conceive.

This is undoubtedly true. But, (you knew that was coming…), consider a healthy 41 year old couple, concerned about maternal age and who have been using NFP, but now believe your advice that age concerns do not constitute a just reason to avoid. In all likelihood, such a couple engaging in sex as and when the mood takes them (oblivious to the state of their fertility at the time), is quite likely to conceive. The advice given is tantamount to advocating a behaviour (ie. to ignore fertility awareness) likely to lead to pregnancy.

I readily agree this may not be true for all couples, eg. Some experience great difficulty becoming pregnant regardless of activity. But for many, rolling the dice is going to lead to pregnancy.

 

[Rau]

Actually it is on topic. Because if age ALONE is a just reason then it would stand to reason that a couple getting married later in life WOULD go into marriage with that idea of only having 1 or even NO kids. And the Church is against that.

A firm and resolved intent to have no kids is an impediment to marriage - that’s a fact. However, approaching marriage anticipating 1 child only does not concern me, subject to the reasons for holding that anticipation, which ought to be such as to admit a open mind to the possibility that one may change their mind.

Does make you wonder what advice is given to women about to marry, approaching 50, and not yet reached menopause. Wait a few years?

 

[Rau]

Number 2, how do you use NFP contraceptively? Since the Church looks at every act when it evaluates whether a couple is being unitive and procreative, how does it evaluate an act that does not occur? Since I doubt that you are advocating that a couple has to have sex on a specific day, where is the sin?

The charge that use of NFP without just cause is sinful is NOT made on the basis of a failure to comply with the unitive and procreative requirements for each act. The charge is that the state of mind that underpins a decision to refuse, without just cause, the possibility for children (by studiously avoiding sex at fertile times) is a selfish choice - one that favours applying one’s time and resources in other ways. I believe HoosierDaddy said the sin is mortal, though I don’t know the basis for that.

Personally, I don’t find that charge to be a self-evident one, particularly for those who are generous in other ways. I also struggle with the idea that one (without just cause to avoid) ought to embrace ignorance of one’s fertility. That seems a silly idea, since, to a degree, it’s near impossible for the woman anyway! So, if HoosierDaddy is right about the wrongs of overuse of NFP (ie. choosing to have too few children), then it follows that one needs to consciously act to have children unless there are just reasons to avoid.

 

[Cathmomof6]

I wish I had something enlightening to add, but I am afraid I do not. Unfortunately, I am still confused as to what road my husband and I should follow. I am interested in others’ thoughts and opinions but ultimately we will have to take this to God in prayer. I do not have a crystal ball to see into the future. I don’t think I am a great mom that can handle bunches of kids. I have weak moments. I don’t see myself any more equipped for this than anyone else. So why don’t I have that “I’m done with kids” feeling? Why does it make me sad to pack up maternity and baby clothes? I must just be a little crazy!

I don’t know if I could handle a child with lifelong problems; although I would like to believe that with God’s grace I could!! I often can’t handle the ones I already have!! I obviously don’t want to risk my own life for another baby; but again this is another variable that I can’t possibly see into the future. I THINK I am healthy, but who knows what could happen??

I do agree that NFP could be used with selfish intentions but maybe the sinfulness is not universal but depends on each couple. For us, NFP is not easy, we are not good at it and have several “what the heck babies” to prove that. The thought of using NFP for the next 10 years makes me sick so I can definitely see us having another “what the heck baby” even if it may be “irresponsible” or “imprudent” to do so based upon my age. We would then have to live with that quick, in the heat of the moment decision. Again, my faith filled side, would like to think that that would then be God’s will. However, my more practical side, sees it as sheer lack of self control, imprudence, whatever!! People who use ABC make these decisions with their practical mind ahead of time and then don’t have that temptation in the heat of the moment!!

I know we would be very harshly judged if were to conceive again, and then if the baby would have problems on top of that, whoa…people would have even more to say about that, I’m sure!!! It is refreshing to hear from people who had older moms and appreciate the life they were given because I hear far too often that it is not fair to have a child at 40 only to die of old age when that child is a young adult or to deprive that child of a full life because I might not have the energy you need for a small child!!!

 

[Rico_S]

The charge that use of NFP without just cause is sinful is NOT made on the basis of a failure to comply with the unitive and procreative requirements for each act. **The charge is that the state of mind that underpins a decision to refuse, without just cause, the possibility for children (by studiously avoiding sex at fertile times) is a selfish choice **- one that favours applying one’s time and resources in other ways. I believe HoosierDaddy said the sin is mortal, though I don’t know the basis for that.

Yes. The act of practicing NFP itself is never sinful b/c how is it sinful to not have sex? So I think people sort of scratch their head at the idea of NFP being used contraceptively…doesn’t really make any sense. But the intent to avoid having children can be sinful. Determining whether motives are just is highly subjective and quite frankly, unique to each couple… It is presumptuous to create a specific list, draw a line in the the sand that “this reason isn’t good enough”, or take it upon oneself to guide authoritatively others as to what is and what isn’t a just reason. The Church has guided us and asks us to be generous…it doesn’t define generous in detail and it isn’t up to me to do so for others.

I also struggle with the idea that one (without just cause to avoid) ought to embrace ignorance of one’s fertility.

I am with you.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes. The act of practicing NFP itself is never sinful b/c how is it sinful to not have sex? So I think people sort of scratch their head at the idea of NFP being used contraceptively…doesn’t really make any sense. But the intent to avoid having children can be sinful. Determining whether motives are just is highly subjective and quite frankly, unique to each couple… It is presumptuous to create a specific list, draw a line in the the sand that “this reason isn’t good enough”, or take it upon oneself to guide authoritatively others as to what is and what isn’t a just reason. The Church has guided us and asks us to be generous…it doesn’t define generous in detail and it isn’t up to me to do so for others.

I am with you.

Yes. The act of practicing NFP itself is never sinful b/c how is it sinful to not have sex? So I think people sort of scratch their head at the idea of NFP being used contraceptively…doesn’t really make any sense. But the intent to avoid having children can be sinful. Determining whether motives are just is highly subjective and quite frankly, unique to each couple… It is presumptuous to create a specific list, draw a line in the the sand that “this reason isn’t good enough”, or take it upon oneself to guide authoritatively others as to what is and what isn’t a just reason. The Church has guided us and asks us to be generous…it doesn’t define generous in detail and it isn’t up to me to do so for others.

Yes. This is what I was trying to say. NFP was the tool we used to implement the sin.

I am with you.

I am not. While information can be a good thing, the idea of "ignorance being the non NFP option is silly. And goes beyond what the Church teaches. NFP is not even mentioned to the VAST majority of Catholics in the world. The Church has no directives to even address or teach the issue in many cases. NFP is not a requirement and is more like a help for those who need for “just” reasons to avoid. “just” does not mean any, or every.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Many people seem to be defensive about this. As if others sinful use of NFP needs to be addressed in their own lives. I will say this. I have not nor am I accusing anyone on this thread of sinful use of NFP. I have no idea why some use it. Nor is it my business. But I would say that if this conversation makes some feel like they need to justify or explain, or deny the ability to be selfish and sinful with this, then perhaps they need to contemplate it a little more.

 

[Rico_S]

Many people seem to be defensive about this. As if others sinful use of NFP needs to be addressed in their own lives.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Rau said:

“If there is any sin, it is not so much attached to the absence of child-bearing, or the restraint in engaging in sex, but to that which you did do with your time and your resources. Did you help the poor? Did you educate and nurture your children? Did you enrich yourself?”

That is a very good point.

If, for instance, a couple donated 20% of their income and gave generously of their time to others, should we call them selfish for only having two children?

I understand that there are scenarios where couples are 1) well-off, 2) materialistic and 3) have a small family while a different couple might be 1) of moderate means 2) generous to others and 3) have a lot of kids (in fact I’m thinking of an example of the latter right now), but it occurs to me that we generally don’t know others’ finances well enough to know what their charitable giving is. I know what ours is, and I have a feeling that a rich Protestant aunt and uncle of mine with two grown kids are very generous, but beyond that, I’m realizing that I have no clue what others do or don’t do.

I am not accusing anyone of this but your logic is unsound.

If, for instance, a couple donated 20% of their income and gave generously of their time to others, should we call them selfish for only having two children?

Sure we could. money does not make up for sin. If I rob banks but donate a lot of it to cancer research I still have sin. a billionaire could donate 20 percent and time and only want to kids in a sinful way.

Not saying that anyone is doing that but just that your logic is off about sin.

A couple cannot get married and intend to never have children if they give X amount of money and time to the Church.

 

[Rau]

. NFP is not even mentioned to the VAST majority of Catholics in the world. The Church has no directives to even address or teach the issue in many cases. NFP is not a requirement and is more like a help for those who need for “just” reasons to avoid. “just” does not mean any, or every.

Whether one has ever heard of NFP, or ever had a lesson, is not the key point however. To some degree, women and their partners, have some knowledge of their fertility at a given point in time. Any decision to avoid in light of that knowledge is just the same as using NFP.