Maternal Age as a serious reason to avoid pregnancy

[Mary_Gail_36]

Very true. Of course, we can never know the “what might have beens”. I don’t think they are a solid basis for choosing to have (or not avoid) a child. We can only try and make good choices with what we (think we ) know.

I agree. I hope I explain this well, but I’m not understanding how God is omnipotent yet at the same time His will can be thwarted just because two people did not be intimate on a specific day.

I spent 20 years outside of the Church, attending Mass sporadically, attending confession perhaps 5 times in my entire life. I was married in the Church, yet we contracepted from the beginning. I went on the Pill, had the extra pill packs just in case I took them incorrectly and the back up plan available just in case.

We stopped contraception completely in 2003. Since then I go to confession, I attend Mass, I read a great deal of theology and apologetics, I’ve been pregnant 4 more times, with 2 living children. I feel a lot like the prodigal son, that God waited for me to come home and prepared a feast for me.

But, irrespective of this, God doesn’t guide me to make the correct decisions? I am not infallible but I try to conform myself to God’s will the best way I can.

Perhaps I’m naïve, perhaps I’m optimistic, but I honestly think God does open hearts to his will when they try to be faithful Catholics.

NFP is not easy. For me it has been a sacrifice, for my husband probably more. I hope that this sacrifice has been sanctifying.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Andrea and Rusty Yates are an extreme example, but she does demonstrate that just “trusting God” with regard to family size will not keep you from biting off more than you can chew. The Yates did.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates

So did the Torodes (with NFP), to a less tragic extent, and so did my mom (fortunately, only our relationship was seriously harmed, and only for the next 2+ two decades, but still a substantial loss). My cousin’s ex-wife the Protestant homeschooler of a large family who forgot to teach a few of her kids to read is another example. It is possible to overestimate one’s abilities to cope, and people do it all the time. Just “trusting God” will not guarantee a happy, holy or functional family.

Really Xantippe, you are way off topic. The thread asked if “maternal age” as a reason for NFP, not mental illness. Nor is this thread about your cousin’s homeschooling Protestant ex-wife. Neither is it about dyslexia and the prevalence of undiagnosed reading problems in school aged children so let’s just let this drop.

Yeah, we get it. You one time desired a large homeschooling family based on some fantasy-- and then you had kids. Low and behold! you discovered that parenting is harder than you expected! This homeschooling mother of a large family who had children at an “advanced maternal age” found parenting to be harder than I thought it would be too, but I found that out when I was in my twenties and I’m over the shock now.

This thread topic wasn’t about the difficulties of parenting or about homeschooling or about mental illness; it was a discussion about if maternal age was a reason for using NFP. The decision is theirs to make, along with God in prayer, but please stop planting these suggestions that compare us older parents with people who have far more issues going on beyond just age. Most of us discovered parenting is more difficult that we expected, but not all women over 35 have all the other issues that you keep bringing up. If the only reason a couple desires to use NFP is because the woman’s age, while the Church has not stated what is or is not an acceptably serious enough reason for using NFP, I think they should re-evaluate their decision, but the decision is theirs to make as a couple.

And since we are already off topic, I’ll add that as far you finding parenting to be more difficult than you thought, maybe that was God’s gift to you to help you build a better relationship with your mother. We’re not perfect-we’re just moms. If you thought you’d be a perfect mom to perfect children, you somehow missed the part in the Catechism about concupiscence and the tendency of humans to sin. Jesus gave us the Sacrament of Confession for a reason and it’s not just for us older folks.

 

[Bookcat]

Really Xantippe, you are way off topic. The thread asked if “maternal age” as a reason for NFP, not mental illness.

Yes by the 313th post --a thread is often off topic.

We have been all over the place. Not much point in noting it now.

When one has serious reasons - going off topic may be part of responsible posting.

 

[Xantippe]

gardenswithkids said:

“Really Xantippe, you are way off topic. The thread asked if “maternal age” as a reason for NFP, not mental illness. Nor is this thread about your cousin’s homeschooling Protestant ex-wife. Neither is it about dyslexia and the prevalence of undiagnosed reading problems in school aged children so let’s just let this drop.”

We’re all way off topic if so many of the posts are about the legitimacy of NFP under pretty much any circumstances. (And frankly, you never get to 20+ pages without getting a little off topic.) Hoosier Daddy, for instance, has had a number of posts where he wonders whether NFP is legitimate at all. (I am not criticizing him for saying that, but I am pointing out that if it’s off-topic to mention Andrea and Rusty Yates and their family planning, it’s off-topic to wonder if NFP is legitimate.)

There have been a lot of posts in this long thread about how anybody can handle anything, if they just trust God enough, and seeing serious reasons shows that we’re not trusting God enough. Risk of disabled or doomed baby, existing disabled children, miscarriage, serious maternal health problems, advanced age–none of that ought to matter if we were just a little holier. If you reread the thread, you’ll find the posts. Those were the ones that were making mommamaree feel so uncomfortable and trapped (and mommamaree is a very conscientious person, by all appearances).

Unfortunately, the effect of that kind of post (anybody can do anything) is to break bruised reeds.

Under the circumstances (the repeated urging of taking on substantial risks, with little regard for individual circumstances), it seems fair to point out that it is indeed possible (indeed, common) for families to be overtaxed by their circumstances and to crumble in the face of adversity and that when that happens, it causes unimaginable harm to children.

“Most of us discovered parenting is more difficult that we expected, but not all women over 35 have all the other issues that you keep bringing up. If the only reason a couple desires to use NFP is because the woman’s age, while the Church has not stated what is or is not an acceptably serious enough reason for using NFP, I think they should re-evaluate their decision, but the decision is theirs to make as a couple.”

Age is an acceptable reason for NFP.

That point has been very controversial in this thread and there have been many posts denying that couples have the right to consider age alone as a factor.

That is the context for my posts.

“And since we are already off topic, I’ll add that as far you finding parenting to be more difficult than you thought, maybe that was God’s gift to you to help you build a better relationship with your mother.”

Indeed.

“We’re not perfect-we’re just moms. If you thought you’d be a perfect mom to perfect children, you somehow missed the part in the Catechism about concupiscence and the tendency of humans to sin. Jesus gave us the Sacrament of Confession for a reason and it’s not just for us older folks.”

I think the problem is that parenting and large families do get oversold.

Here’s some of the fine print I would add:

1. Adding a second child may be surprisingly difficult. (Which, unsurprisingly, is why a lot of people stop at two.)
2. Those large families where the moms seem to be having such a good time always have an important secret sauce: OLDER KIDS. I was recently out with a mom friend who has just a 3-year-old and a 1-year-old, and rather reveling in the freedom provided by the fact that my 11-year-old had taken charge of my toddler without being asked. I said something to friend to the effect that “It’s great to have a big girl to help. Unfortunately, it takes about 10 years to grow one.” There’s absolutely no comparison with regard to how much easier my life with three is than her life with two.

 

[Xantippe]

Bookcat said:

“When one has serious reasons - going off topic may be part of responsible posting.”

Ha!

 

[Galbin]

Thank you for this post. The direction this thread has gone had become increasingly troublesome for me psychologically. I was starting to feel backed into a corner by the quoting of magisterial documents that seemed to be saying that procreating more children must be considered to be a priority about all others, unless grave circumstances exist. Some of the language which I had previously thought I understood and accepted was starting to sound really rigid, because of the commentary offered here. Whether I misunderstood what people were saying, or whether they are correct and I am wrong and I am just not ready to accept a hard truth, I do not know. But what I do know is that I will not purposefully attempt to have more children just because someone else is telling me I do not have valid reasons to avoid. They are not the ones living my life, and they are not the ones who have to go through my pregnancy and childbirth and raise my children. If I feel too tired, too overwhelmed, too concerned about the possible risk factors, then my concerns are more relevant for my family than the commentary of other Catholics, even if it is based upon the writings of popes. And anyway, I have a feeling that going through seven pregnancies already, if I were to discuss my concerns with my pastor, he would encourage me to follow my instincts. No matter what other people believe about their own personal choices, for myself, I still strongly believe that a woman has a right, at some point, to say, “enough, I am too old and too tired to go through all of this again”, even if she is not experiencing poor health at the time (other than the exhaustion and loss of vitality due to years of pregnancies and nursing). Thankfully, my husband completely agrees with me.

I’ll admit I haven’t read all of this thread, but I am absolutely astounded that anyone would pressurise a mother of seven kids to purposely attempt to have more?! Catholics are not meant to be quiverfull! In fact, check out nolongerquivering.com for some very sad stories of what happens to women who are forced into more pregnancies than their bodies or minds can handle. You do have a right to make your choice. It’s not like you are aborting children or using an IUD or something.

You come across here as such a sweet person and dedicated parent. Please don’t think you are doing anything wrong by avoiding.

 

[Xantippe]

Galbin said:

“I’ll admit I haven’t read all of this thread, but I am absolutely astounded that anyone would pressurise a mother of seven kids to purposely attempt to have more?!”

I believe mommamaree has been pregnant seven times and is expecting her fifth, but yes, your point stands.

 

[mommamaree]

Galbin said:

“I’ll admit I haven’t read all of this thread, but I am absolutely astounded that anyone would pressurise a mother of seven kids to purposely attempt to have more?!”

I believe mommamaree has been pregnant seven times and is expecting her fifth, but yes, your point stands.

Yes, thank you for that correction. I am currently in my seventh pregnancy, and although two of my pregnancies ended in the first trimester due to miscarriage, they still take a toll on the body and the heart. That is more what I was referring to. After the babies reach the toddler stage and are weaning themselves and sleeping through the night regularly, they are great fun and less physically exhausting. But right now, I have been nursing while pregnant for the last two pregnancies, which means it has been YEARS (more than 4!) since I was neither pregnant/nursing. I am tired all the time, and I haven’t been able to shake the baby weight, since I cannot find any stretch of time where diet and exercise won’t be starving a baby. Maybe that seems selfish and vain to think like that. Mea culpa maxima.
On the other hand, I am so excited about this baby. We are really hoping for another boy, as my only son really wants a brother to balance things out here at home. We do the ultrasound in a few weeks. And I am not opposed to the idea of raising more children in the future, but by the time I properly attend to my health and fitness goals, and wean this new baby (my babies tend to self-wean as they approach their 2nd birthday), it will be years from now. So I have no idea how I will feel when that day comes.
On another note, as my oldest two kids have started growing, I have come to realize just how much food they are going to consume and how much clothing we will need to buy each year to clothe our family. It is crazy!!! When they hit their teens, I am sure they will be eating us out of house and home!

 

[gardenswithkids]

…I think the problem is that parenting and large families do get oversold. …

Well, you’re entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. Our culture over-sells us on the concept of family planning through any and all means, usually through contraception or sterilization. NFP is a Church approved method of family planning, and the Church has not definitively said what is or is not serious/just/grave reasons for using it. Nor does the Church require us to use NFP, but the culture around us really wants to insist that we use some type of family planning. Those of us with large families (planned or otherwise) often find ourselves at odds with not only the contraceptive culture around us, but we take friendly fire from some within the Church.

Your posts here and on the other thread feel like shots of friendly. As a child of older parents and the older parent of children and of a large family, some of what you write truly comes off as offensive. Maybe you feel your being pressured or accused here by your fellow Catholics too, those of us who are also trying live by the Church teachings and to figure out what’s best for their/our marriages and families and the larger society around us who happen to disagree with you what constitutes a serious reasons. But it seems almost as if you think that older parents or parents of larger families are to be blamed if their (our) children have problems, and the children are to be blamed if the parents have problems. “If only what’s her name hadn’t had that fifth child that pushed her over the edge”, sounds to me like a version of “blame the victim”. And I don’t think it’s particularly helpful.

The larger problem is that we live in a culture that makes parenting particularly difficult for parents of either large or small families. And the larger problem still is that we live among sinners–and we’re all sinners. We sin and we grow old and we die. That’s life, but as Catholics we hold onto a hope that goes beyond that. I hold onto that hope.

 

[Bookcat]

Pope Benedict mother was 43 when he was born (his father too was in his 40’s).

Thanks be to God!

 

[MomaMary8]

Andrea and Rusty Yates are an extreme example, but she does demonstrate that just “trusting God” with regard to family size will not keep you from biting off more than you can chew. The Yates did.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates

So did the Torodes (with NFP), to a less tragic extent, and so did my mom (fortunately, only our relationship was seriously harmed, and only for the next 2+ two decades, but still a substantial loss). My cousin’s ex-wife the Protestant homeschooler of a large family who forgot to teach a few of her kids to read is another example. It is possible to overestimate one’s abilities to cope, and people do it all the time. Just “trusting God” will not guarantee a happy, holy or functional family.

Really? Andrea Yates? You had to bring her up? My mother asked if I was going to be another Andrea Yates when I was pregnant with #5. I was astoundingly offended. Thankfully I’m learning to have less pride and let the insults roll off my back, but I’m still a bit surprised that this poor woman had to be brought up in regards to maternal age

I think you jumped the shark on this one

 

[MomaMary8]

It seems that much of this discussion revolves around preventing suffering. This is a nice goal, but when preventing suffering or alleviating suffering turns into preventing a suffering person the right to life, then we have gone too far. Just my :twocents:

 

[mommamaree]

[People say] that older parents or parents of larger families are to be blamed if their (our) children have problems, and the children are to be blamed if the parents have problems. “If only what’s her name hadn’t had that fifth child that pushed her over the edge”, sounds to me like a version of “blame the victim”. And I don’t think it’s particularly helpful.

I snipped and edited your post because this particular statement really struck a chord with me. I hope that is okay.

One of the greatest psychological challenges I face while pregnant is that, inevitably, I become less productive. I am tired and nauseous and unable to do everything myself. In other words, I realize I am not Supermom. During such times, I need to ask for help or favors more, and recently I even had to ask my husband to let me hire maid service (oh my gawsh, let me tell you how wonderful maid service has been!!!).
I feel like the fact that I cannot do everything society says a SAHM mother should be doing (see TeachCatechism’s posts on this matter in the thread started by FordDad) means that I am lazy and spoiled. And that I deserve every chastisement and condemnation that might be thrown at me, because after all, it is my fault I am pregnant. Shouldn’t I have known better than to do something so stupid as to get pregnant, when I know that it means I will be less functional??
And what if my baby is found to be less than healthy, and I again need help to care for him and cannot meet all his needs myself? Again, shouldn’t I have known better??? What if he is born with some kind of physical challenges or developmental disorder and he requires so much care that I neglect my other children?
And more to your point, gardenswithkids, what if my age factors directly into the problems he suffers from? Then it is even more my fault because I should have known better than to allow pregnancy (or more accurately, I should have known better than to allow birth) at my age.
It is very upsetting. I actually struggle with these self-deprecating thoughts every. single. day. It really contributes a lot to my feelings of exhaustion. Plus, I feel so guilty for the symptoms I experience while pregnant (“if only I would have done/do XYZ, then I wouldn’t be causing my suffering to impact other people”). I would love to hear more from older mothers here how they battled against the societal conditioning and how they faced their fears and how they took care of their health and fitness needs despite the serious drains on their mental and physical reserves that pregnancy and breastfeeding cause. Any thoughts on that? Or am I a weirdo for having this line of intrusive thoughts that weigh me down (with the weight of lies and opinions of others)?

 

[Xantippe]

gardenswithkids said:

“Well, you’re entitled to your opinion, but I disagree.”

I mean, within the Catholic bubble. Not in the larger secular world, of course.

“Your posts here and on the other thread feel like shots of friendly. As a child of older parents and the older parent of children and of a large family, some of what you write truly comes off as offensive.”

I am not against people taking risks or having larger families, but I do want them to be well-informed about the risks they are taking, and I don’t want anybody to be pressuring others to have larger families against their better judgment, or to be minimizing those risks with happy talk. The risks may be worth taking, but they are real.

There has also been a lot of rigoristic talk in this thread that does not faithfully represent Church teaching. Church teaching offers considerable latitude in this area and I think 9 out of 10 priests (or even 19 out of 20) would probably offer a fairly soft pastoral response to questions like this.

“But it seems almost as if you think that older parents or parents of larger families are to be blamed if their (our) children have problems, and the children are to be blamed if the parents have problems.”

I would never say anything like that in a million years, but if an older mother had doubts about planning more children (as the OP here did), I would spell out what exactly the risks are.

I’m the mother of a mildly autistic child that I had at 27 and the risks of recurrence are something like 1 in 7. I think about this stuff. It’s entirely possible that my husband and I might have another autistic child (and perhaps a much more severely afflicted one). For that matter, it’s entirely possible that our current 18-month-old is also to some extent autistic. That would not surprise me at all. I’ll have to wait until 6 or so to tell for sure (our oldest was diagnosed at 6).

 

[Rico_S]

Well, you’re entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. Our culture over-sells us on the concept of family planning through any and all means, usually through contraception or sterilization. NFP is a Church approved method of family planning, and the Church has not definitively said what is or is not serious/just/grave reasons for using it. Nor does the Church require us to use NFP, but the culture around us really wants to insist that we use some type of family planning. Those of us with large families (planned or otherwise) often find ourselves at odds with not only the contraceptive culture around us, but we take friendly fire from some within the Church.

Your posts here and on the other thread feel like shots of friendly. As a child of older parents and the older parent of children and of a large family, some of what you write truly comes off as offensive. Maybe you feel your being pressured or accused here by your fellow Catholics too, those of us who are also trying live by the Church teachings and to figure out what’s best for their/our marriages and families and the larger society around us who happen to disagree with you what constitutes a serious reasons. But it seems almost as if you think that older parents or parents of larger families are to be blamed if their (our) children have problems, and the children are to be blamed if the parents have problems. “If only what’s her name hadn’t had that fifth child that pushed her over the edge”, sounds to me like a version of “blame the victim”. And I don’t think it’s particularly helpful.

The larger problem is that we live in a culture that makes parenting particularly difficult for parents of either large or small families. And the larger problem still is that we live among sinners–and we’re all sinners. We sin and we grow old and we die. That’s life, but as Catholics we hold onto a hope that goes beyond that. I hold onto that hope.

‘’

You know it cuts both ways. There are plenty of posts by the “providentialist” mentality crowd in this and other threads that are quite offensive to those who have arrived at a decision to justly space/delay/avoid pregnancy using NFP. And you want to talk about friendly fire?..calling NFPers to the mat for not having just reasons. It’s comical. The church is is practically drowning in ABC use…it is everywhere. But those pesky family planners who misuse NFP (b/c we don’t agree with their reasons) :tsktsk:

I

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

gardenswithkids said:

I mean, within the Catholic bubble. Not in the larger secular world, of course.
.

You are going to have to keep narrowing that bubble. Most Catholics do not have large families and use ABC. But when you start getting down to "within the practicing Catholic NFP or “naturalists” or in a state of grace to receive Holy communion your complaint loses its sting.

You have to have very narrow set of parameters to make the argument that large families are oversold. Perhaps you would have a better case if you were talking about mormons or muslims.

 

[Rico_S]

You have to have very narrow set of parameters to make the argument that large families are oversold. Perhaps you would have a better case if you were talking about mormons or muslims.

Perhaps she was just speaking of CAF? Or this thread in general?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

‘’

You know it cuts both ways. There are plenty of posts by the “providentialist” mentality crowd in this and other threads that are quite offensive to those who have arrived at a decision to justly space/delay/avoid pregnancy using NFP. And you want to talk about friendly fire?..calling NFPers to the mat for not having just reasons. It’s comical. The church is is practically drowning in ABC use…it is everywhere. But those pesky family planners who misuse NFP (b/c we don’t agree with their reasons) :tsktsk:

I

Part of the reason for the friendly fire is that NFPers usually overstate their case. NFP is all butterflies and candy and it is so awesome, and it is approved by the Church, in fact all people should be educated in it etc…

As pointed out earlier NFP is the exception. Sex is the default.

This thread is still good, however it is taking a turn for the personal and not the theoretical or logical. While I cannot side with Xantippe and do not see her logic in some things, I don’t think her personal struggles need to be brought up. It biases my pondering of her arguments. By the same token, her shot at homeschooling large families is not needed either. Being as I am a homeschooling dad of a large family and am ready to have more kids no matter our station in life. It is personal. parenting is easy for me.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Perhaps she was just speaking of CAF? Or this thread in general?

If large families are being oversold on this thread then you and I are reading different threads. This thread is started using age as a reason to have smaller families based on statistical risks.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Originally Posted by Bookcat View Post
Pope Benedict mother was 43 when he was born (his father too was in his 40’s).

Thanks be to God!

Sadly I know some people who wish the good Pope’s mother had used NFP…

I love him!