Maternal Mortality rate and the morality of contraception

[Tantum_ergo]

I see.

You believe in God. You DON’T believe in His Church.

You accept God’s teachings. . .if they agree with what you want.
If not. . .well, then clearly GOD didn’t teach them. So then you don’t have to agree with them.



I agree with a couple of the posters who remind you (correctly) that you don’t pick and choose with God. Something isn’t “ok” for one person but “not ok” for somebody else.

I ask again: Do you trust God? Do you trust Him enough to be able to say, “THY WILL BE DONE?”

He created us. He knows our lives, He has a plan. What you propose is more like somebody saying,

"Yes, I trust God and His love. I know He loves every single person on earth. I know that if He tells us to do something which is hard, it’s worth while. I know that every person’s birth, life, AND DEATH has meaning.

BUT> >> because I want to have a little more control, I will do something He tells me not to do, because “the end justifies the means”. I’ll do something wrong, because I think the wrong thing (contraception) is better than the right thing (noncontraception). My concern isn’t with doing God’s will and getting to heaven, it is with something else which is MORE important. It is more important for these women to have CONTROL of their physical body than it is for them to have LIFE in their ETERNAL SOUL.

 

[1ke]

svoboda:

Well, by birth control here I mean something like sterilization because it doesn’t require husband’s participation.

Oh yes, sterilizing people… that’s a great solution (note sarcasm).

 

[svoboda]

1ke:

Oh yes, sterilizing people… that’s a great solution (note sarcasm).

Letting 529 000 women die each year due to pregnancy/childbirth complications is worse.

 

[svoboda]

I guess nearly everyone here thinks that those women should not use birth control even though it means that they have a 1 in 16 chance of dying because of pregnancy.

To me this is very sad and scary.

 

[fix]

svoboda:

Letting 529 000 women die each year due to pregnancy/childbirth complications is worse.

Again, this is the ends justifying the means. We do not do evil even if a good may come from it.

 

[fix]

svoboda:

I guess nearly everyone here thinks that those women should not use birth control even though it means that they have a 1 in 16 chance of dying because of pregnancy.

To me this is very sad and scary.

Contraception, any type, is evil. You fail to see that evil should never be done.

 

[Kendy]

Tantum ergo:

I see.

You believe in God. You DON’T believe in His Church.

You accept God’s teachings. . .if they agree with what you want.
If not. . .well, then clearly GOD didn’t teach them. So then you don’t have to agree with them.



I agree with a couple of the posters who remind you (correctly) that you don’t pick and choose with God. Something isn’t “ok” for one person but “not ok” for somebody else.

I ask again: Do you trust God? Do you trust Him enough to be able to say, “THY WILL BE DONE?”.

Well, does every time we intervene in a natural process show that we don’t trust God. Do I not trust God when I take medication. Or do women not trust God when they try to reduce birth pains
Tantum ergo:

He created us. He knows our lives, He has a plan. What you propose is more like somebody saying,
"Yes, Itrust God and His love. I know He loves every single person on earth. I know that if He tells us to do something which is hard, it’s worth while. I know that every person’s birth, life, AND DEATH has meaning.

BUT> >> because I want to have a little more control, I will do something He tells me not to do, because “the end justifies the means”. I’ll do something wrong, because I think the wrong thing (contraception) is better than the right thing (noncontraception). My concern isn’t with doing God’s will and getting to heaven, it is with something else which is MORE important. It is more important for these women to have CONTROL of their physical body than it is for them to have LIFE in their ETERNAL SOUL.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

There is a greater evil than bodily death, and that is eternal damnation.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

svoboda:

I guess nearly everyone here thinks that those women should not use birth control even though it means that they have a 1 in 16 chance of dying because of pregnancy.

To me this is very sad and scary.

Blarney.

---

You want to really improve those women’s lives?

---

How about genuine health care? The rate of death due to at least 5 treatable diseases is higher in these women than the risk of pregnancy.

---

How about food and access to clean drinking water? This would do more to create healthy pregnancy and extend life expectancy for the entire continient in a single generation than surgical procedures (sterilization) would. And by the way, the most dangerous place to have a surgical procedure done is where there is not health care and the water is contaminated - one has to wonder what the ratio of death for those women would be.

---

How about less racists governments and getting rid of the warlords?

---

How about education?

---

Fact is, people who want mass contraceptives and sterilization of women in poverty don’t really care about those women or their kids. There’s literally dozens of things more important and more beneficial than birth control, but that’s the only method that can eventually rid the world of them for good. And that’s what it really comes down to isn’t it? Wipe them off the face of the earth to make room for the better off populations?

---

I find that sad and scary.

 

[Kendy]

Blarney.

---

You want to really improve those women’s lives?

---

How about genuine health care? The rate of death due to at least 5 treatable diseases is higher in these women than the risk of pregnancy.

---

How about food and access to clean drinking water? This would do more to create healthy pregnancy and extend life expectancy for the entire continient in a single generation than surgical procedures (sterilization) would. And by the way, the most dangerous place to have a surgical procedure done is where there is not health care and the water is contaminated - one has to wonder what the ratio of death for those women would be.

---

How about less racists governments and getting rid of the warlords?

---

How about education?

---

Fact is, people who want mass contraceptives and sterilization of women in poverty don’t really care about those women or their kids. There’s literally dozens of things more important and more beneficial than birth control, but that’s the only method that can eventually rid the world of them for good. And that’s what it really comes down to isn’t it? Wipe them off the face of the earth to make room for the better off populations?

---

I find that sad and scary.

It’s really offensive to assume that people who happen to disagree with you could only do so because they don’t care about women and children, and want to wipe groups of people off the face of the Earth. There are indeed many things that could be done. However, what can be done is limited by politics. I would love to get rid of racist governments, but who is going to invest the military resources needed to do that? How about you work on getting your government to implement more fair trade policies toward my country? That would help a whole lot.

Just because there are many thing you can do does not mean that trying to get women who don’t want to constantly pregnant to control at least that part of their lives is not an option. You may disagree with that option, but don’t you dare suggest that I don’t think about the women who eat out garbage dumps that I have seen with my own eyes.

Kendy

 

[migurl]

you cant make an exception for a possible outcome. it is not 100% positive that a woman will die. besides, where is your faith in God? If he wills her death, she will die. if he wills her to live, she will live. if she used contaceptives she would be committing a mortal sin, and would end up missing the train to heaven b/c of it. i am at this moment holding my 11 day old baby brother, and to think that there are women out there who value freetime, material goods, fun and their own lives more than they value the life of an innocent child appauls me. I woul give my life for a stranger, why would I not give it for my own child? only the evil of selfishness considers that as an option.

 

[bear06]

Children would be poor even here if women just kept having one baby after another. Part of the reason why children here have such great lives is that their parents have small families. Children are expensive, few people here can afford to raise many without slipping into poverty.

I’ve just got to ask at this point - do you have children? My children have great lives and we are about to have our 7th. What give you the impression that small families have greater lives than large ones? How expensive do you think children are? We’ve never had a super paycheck and yet I’ve always managed to stay at home and dress, feed and provide for their medical needs. How much do you think you need per year per child? Did I mention I also live in one of the highest priced places in California? It’s called sacrifice. It’s amazing how much you can give your kids when you don’t give them an x-box and have a tv in every room.

Sure, ideally the situation of women in those nations should be changed. This is the goal we should all strive for. Is it going to happen today? No. Is it going to happen within the next year? No. Until it happens, those women should be using birth control to protect themselves from DEATH. This isn’t trivial. A 1 in 16 chance of dying is unbelievably high.

Once again, the UN is there passing out ABC left and right and guess what, the situation is getting worse and not better.

As for women being assaulted by contraception, I don’t buy it. My own mother used contraception throughout her entire life. Good women I know have used contraception. Most people, including most Catholics use contraception. Contraception freed women from constant pregnancy, it enabled women to have careers, to have lives outside of the home.

It also raised the divorce rate and allowed for men to stray without being caught. It also brought on a miriad of health issues such as heart disease and cancer. Why do you feel it necessary for women to have careers and lives outside the home?

Most women would agree with me, not with you. I don’t see how contraception is an assault on women. If anything is an assault on women, it is constant pregnancy and a 1 in 16 chance of dying from it AND the teaching that their use of birth control to save themselves from death would be MORTALLY SINFUL

Once again, you know very little about what really goes on in Africa and, of course you are using this argument to promote ABC throughout the world not just Africa. What’s the reason hear to use it since the maternal mortality rate is so low?

I’ve got news for you. Africa is only about 17% Catholic so to blame the state of Africa on Catholic teachings is ludicrous. The fact is, the government of Africa is big on promoting condom use to stem the AIDS epidemic there and guess what? It’s not working.

 

[Kendy]

migurl:

you cant make an exception for a possible outcome. it is not 100% positive that a woman will die. besides, where is your faith in God? If he wills her death, she will die. if he wills her to live, she will live. if she used contaceptives she would be committing a mortal sin, and would end up missing the train to heaven b/c of it. i am at this moment holding my 11 day old baby brother, and to think that there are women out there who value freetime, material goods, fun and their own lives more than they value the life of an innocent child appauls me. I woul give my life for a stranger, why would I not give it for my own child? only the evil of selfishness considers that as an option.

So, it’s selfish to want to remain alive for the sake of the children you already have?

Kendy

 

[migurl]

yes. God decides all things, if He wills your death, He knows how it will affect your children, so it is selfish and arrogant to think that you know better than God. Have faith and all will be well, even if your children aren’t rich or in perfect health, if they have faith they may suffer, but their reward will be far greater than they could imagine. Leave it in God’s hands.

 

[bear06]

Kendy:

So, it’s selfish to want to remain alive for the sake of the children you already have?

Kendy

Hey, I’d love to live until I’m 100. That said, I’m not going to risk spiritual suicide to do it. Nor am I willing to be an example of how to do this for my children. Do either of you believe there is life everlasting? Really, if you don’t, there really is not point in continuing the conversation. Christ never said our lives here would be easy. His life certainly wasn’t. His mother’s wasn’t. St. Peter’s wasn’t.

 

[migurl]

bear06:

Hey, I’d love to live until I’m 100. That said, I’m not going to risk spiritual suicide to do it. Nor am I willing to be an example of how to do this for my children. Do either of you believe there is life everlasting? Really, if you don’t, there really is not point in continuing the conversation. Christ never said our lives here would be easy. His life certainly wasn’t. His mother’s wasn’t. St. Peter’s wasn’t.

Amen Bear!

 

[Kendy]

migurl:

yes. God decides all things, if He wills your death, He knows how it will affect your children, so it is selfish and arrogant to think that you know better than God. Have faith and all will be well, even if your children aren’t rich or in perfect health, if they have faith they may suffer, but their reward will be far greater than they could imagine. Leave it in God’s hands.

Then for some reason God wills that poorer, nonwhite people in the world have shorter more miserable lives than wealthy, western people. In fact, it is apparently, God’s will that American white people have longer lives than African-Americans. That seems really odd

 

[migurl]

DOn’t turn this into some racist-god thing. How do you know that he hasn’t given them a gift? I would rather live 15-30 yrs knowing that I did all i could for my family, die and go to heaven then live 90+ yrs fighting temptations and weakensses the whole time. Perhaps more of these poorer people make it to Heaven than Americans. It would’t surprise me since Americans seem bent on contolling everything, having everything and doing the least amount of work possible while doing it. Christ said, Blest are the poor and the weak etc…

 

[migurl]

one other thing, if you are so worried about the non-white people, why are you trying to advocate contraceptives to them? Margret Sanger (founder of the contraceptives movement AND Planned parenthood) believed that all non-whites, catholics, women with 2 kids already etc should be immeadeatly put on contraceptives. SHe was racist and she admitted it. She also was a firm suporter of eugenics and breeding out the other races and less intelligent people in the world. Do you agree with her?

 

[Kendy]

migurl:

DOn’t turn this into some racist-god thing. How do you know that he hasn’t given them a gift? I would rather live 15-30 yrs knowing that I did all i could for my family, die and go to heaven then live 90+ yrs fighting temptations and weakensses the whole time. Perhaps more of these poorer people make it to Heaven than Americans. It would’t surprise me since Americans seem bent on contolling everything, having everything and doing the least amount of work possible while doing it. Christ said, Blest are the poor and the weak etc…

I am not trying to turn it into some racist God thing (although I could see how it could be interpreted that way). I am just trying to point out that because early death is so highly correlated with where one is born and whether you have access to health care, clean water, and nutrition that we can’t just say it’s God’s will. Obviously, God allows this happen, but we know that God probably hasn’t called Africans to suffer more than Europeans. We also know that it’s God’s will that we help our neighbor in need. If we can saved someone life, we are obligated to do it.

Kendy