Mathematical Perfection of Prophecy

[JohnWilliams]

MATHEMATICAL PERFECTION OF PROPHECY

Quotes from “The False Prophet”, by Ellis Skolfield, pasted here with the author’s permission. Free 2 part PDF book available here:
ellisskolfield.com/downloadable-books.shtml

The language of prophecy wherein we calculate “each day for a year” was well understood by those of “the former age and their fathers”, and this method may repeatedly confirm that we are indeed living in the “time of the end”.
Ezekiel 4:6: And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

The mathematics combined with the application of sound hermeneutic rules further advances this textually inescapable conclusion. Let’s explore some examples employing the uniform application of these principles.
The following is a study of just 7 of the problems from Daniel and Revelation employing the language of prophecy wherein we count “each day for a year”.

A SAMPLE OF DANIEL’S MATH

In this first problem alone we will find that in 3 consecutive verses Daniel pegged, exact to the year, the relationship of 3 separate events, spanning 483 Hebrew years, that were all in his future, but came to pass just as he prophesied.

1. Was Jesus the Messiah?
   Daniel 9:24-26 (KJV): Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

“Almost 100 years after Gabriel spoke to Daniel, a special decree was granted by Artaxerxes I to Nehemiah (444-445 BC). This is the ONLY decree recorded in the Bible that gave the Jews permission to “restore Jerusalem and rebuild its walls”. The Messiah, Jesus, was ‘cut off’ or crucified in 32 or 33AD. But are those 69 weeks 69 sevens of years? If so, then we have 69 x 7 or 483 Hebrew years. Using a multiplier of .9857, to reconcile Daniel’s Hebrew years with the solar year units of our modern historical record, yields: 483 x .9857 = 476 solar years. Artaxerxes’ decree in 444 BC + 476 years = 32 AD, the cross right to the year!”

"But what about those six points that were supposed to be fulfilled during these 70 weeks? Ah-ha! All but one were fulfilled at the cross. Did not Jesus (1) finish transgression eternally, (2) make an end of sin, (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and (6) anoint the Most holy with His own precious blood? Of course, praise the Lord! Point (5), however, was left out: ‘Seal up vision and prophecy’. This is where those peculiar 7 weeks and 62 weeks come in:

7 x 7 Hebrew years = 48.3 Solar years. 444 BC - 48.3 = 395.7 BC, Malachi written. Malachi was inspired to write the last book of the Old Testament in about 396 BC. The Scripture to the Jews was complete, and no more was written until the New Testament era! So Old Testament vision and prophecy were indeed ‘sealed up’. As one dear Rabbi lamented in about 200BC, ‘The Holy Spirit has departed from Israel,’ and until this very day, the Jews, as a nation, have not been permitted to see any further. The Lord has blinded their eyes so they could not recognize Jesus as their Messiah (Romans 11:8, 2 Corinthians 3:15)."

But in this time of the end it would seem that God is lifing the “spirit of slumber” from their eyes and ears as increasing numbers of Jews are seeing that Jesus is their Messiah, as God takes “the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.”

 

[JohnWilliams]

1. Maybe another Old Testament problem is in order:
   Daniel 12:11: And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Sacrifices were suspended three times in the Old Testament: once before Daniel (Chronicles 28:24-25), once during the Babylonian captivity in 583 BC (Chronicles 36:19 and Ezra 3:6), and once, about four hundred years later, by the Greek king Antiochus Epiphanies. So to which event do you suppose the Lord might be referring? Well, to whom was this prophecy given? To Daniel. Result: we have every reason to believe that the Lord was referring to sacrifices that were abolished during Daniel’s own lifetime: to an abolition of sacrifices to which Daniel could relate!

These Old Testament day/years would also be something that Daniel could relate to or 1290 - 360 day - Hebrew years, each year being equal to .9857 solar year. 1290 x .9857=1271.5 solar years. Subtracting 583 (because it is BC) we get … 688.5 AD. A quick Yahoo search confirms that this was the year that construction began on the Dome of the Rock

Bishop Sophronious may offer some additional insight: “When Khalifah Omar entered Jerusalem in 639AD, he was met by Sophronius, Bishop of the Jerusalem Church, who showed him around the city. Seeing the temple mount (then in rubble), Omar declared that he was going to build a memorial to Muhammad on the original site of the temple of God. Sophronius exclaimed in horror, “Verily, this is the Abomination of Desolation as spoken of by Daniel the prophet”, and it now stands in the holy place. Though Sophronius was a very old man of about 80, Khalifah Omar put him in prison and to forced labor, the severities of which killed him.”

1. Let’s try the very next verse:
   Daniel 12:12: Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

1335 x .9857 = 1315.9 - 583 (BC) = 732.9 AD A quick Yahoo search determines that 732 was the year of the Battle of Tours, France. This is considered by many to be the most important battle, for Christianity, of the entire Christian era. Charles “Martel” (the hammer), against the odds, repelled and defeated the spread of Islam in its conquest of the world, as it headed up through Europe. This battle was the turning point in the onslaught of Islam delivering the mortal head wound to their advance, and killing the literal head of the advancing army Emir Abd er Rahman.

“Without his leadership and guidance, the other commanders were unable to even agree on a commander to lead them back into battle the following morning. The effect of the death of Abdul Rahman on both Islamic and world history was profound.”
“… according to one unidentified Arab, ‘That army went through all places like a desolating storm.’ sacking and capturing the city of Bordeaux, and then defeating the army of Duke Odo of Aquitaine at the Battle of the River Garonne — where the western chroniclers state, ‘God alone knows the number of the slain’[3] and Odo fled to Charles Martel, seeking help.”

It wouldn’t be until well over a millennium later, that Western oil wealth would heal the wound of the leopard-bear-lion beast so that its image could begin the second Jihad, in the image of the first Jihad.

CONTINUED

 

[JohnWilliams]

Daniel’s successive kingdom beasts of lion, bear and leopard (which Bible scholars recognize as Babylon, Medo-Pursia, and Greece) are today united in antichrist, as the composite leopard-bear-lion - BEAST - we find in Revelation 13. This same geographical region today is occupied by Iran, Iraq, and Syria/Lebanon. Mathematically and textually this verse works perfectly.

A SAMPLE OF JOHN’S MATH IN REVELATION

Since John lived during a later period that used a solar calendar, writing Revelation in about 95 AD, we don’t need to adjust the math for prophetic Hebrew years the way we did for Daniel, since the solar years of our historical record are the same as John’s solar years.

4. Here’s a problem that a 10 year old could solve:
Revelation 12:6: *And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there *a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

Most will agree that Israel is the “woman” in the context of this verse. If we start with a presumption that the end of the 1260 days was when Israel came out of “the wilderness” or out from being scattered among the nations, returning home and declaring her independence in 1948, and subtract 1260 years (“each day for a year”), we arrive exactly at … once again … 688 - The Dome of the Rock!

1. How about Revelation 11:2: *But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months. *

The city of Jerusalem was trodden by, or controlled by, Gentiles until the Israelis retook the city in 1967. Again 30.44 days in a month, multiplied by 42 months = 1278.5 days (as years). Subtracting this from 1967 we arrive at … 688.5.

Further study of the above verse may well demonstrate God’s wonderfully wry sense of humor. The Solomonic Temple was built over a threshingfloor, and on that bedrock the Arc of the Covenant, or Holy or Holies, was kept. It is obvious that this stone, in the Dome of the Rock, would never have served as a threshingfloor as recovery of grain would have been impossible. Today the little gazebo aptly named the Dome of the Tablets, or Dome of the Spirits likely covers the smooth flat threshingfloor of the old Temple site. The Solomonic Temple - “Court of the Gentiles” where even unwashed slaves were allowed - is where the Dome of the Rock was constructed. The old Eastern Gate lines up perfectly with the little “dome of the tablets”. In other words the Dome of the Rock was built in the court outside of the Solomonic temple site, that was given to the Gentiles!

 

[JohnWilliams]

1. Revelation 11:3: And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

1948 - 1260 = 688 … the Dome of the Rock.

The Bible defines the two witnesses as the Jewish and Christian church - who were religiously exiled from Israel by Islam, marked symbolically, specifically, and repeatedly above, by the Dome of the Rock. Employing the scriptural adjacency rule of hermeneutics we learn:

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Rom 11:24 For if thou [the Gentiles] wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree [the Jews]: how much more
shall these [the Jews], which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Many of the “former age” understood this interpretation of the two witnesses:
Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles … "
Or more recently Jamieson Faucett and Brown "…, I think the twofold Church, Jewish and Gentile, may be meant by the two candlesticks represented by the two witnesses … "

1948 marked the end of the Christian era and entry into the “time of the end”. Few would argue that the Church and society have gone spiritually evermore rapidly downhill ever since.

For additional math problems that reinforce the above see
All of the above math problems and some text from “The False Prophet” available to read for free in PDF form at the author Ellis Skolfield’s site:
ellisskolfield.com/downloadable-books.shtml

Are the math problems above and their solutions merely a series of accidents or flukes?

 

[MarysRoses]

The language of prophecy wherein we calculate “each day for a year” was well understood by those of “the former age and their fathers”, and this method may repeatedly confirm that we are indeed living in the “time of the end”.
Ezekiel 4:6: And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

In this instance days are used to represent years. It would have been impossible for Ezekiel to have stayed in bed for 40 years.

But not every instance of ‘days’ in the bible means years. Jesus spent forty days in the wilderness, not forty years. Sometimes days are just days. Sometimes a ‘day’ is as a ‘thousand years’.

Taking a verse out of one context and imposing it on another book written by a different person at a different time is not a reliable way to interpret the bible.

The mathematics combined with the application of sound hermeneutic rules further advances this textually inescapable conclusion. Let’s explore some examples employing the uniform application of these principles.
The following is a study of just 7 of the problems from Daniel and Revelation employing the language of prophecy wherein we count “each day for a year”.

What are these ‘sound rules’. Who devised them and how do we know they have the authority to interpret scripture?

Seventh-day Adventists use the ‘day for a year’ method and arrive and wildly different conclusions.

A SAMPLE OF DANIEL’S MATH

In this first problem alone we will find that in 3 consecutive verses Daniel pegged, exact to the year, the relationship of 3 separate events, spanning 483 Hebrew years, that were all in his future, but came to pass just as he prophesied. …

…If so, then we have 69 x 7 or 483 Hebrew years. Using a multiplier of .9857, to reconcile Daniel’s Hebrew years with the solar year units of our modern historical record, yields: 483 x .9857 = 476 solar years. Artaxerxes’ decree in 444 BC + 476 years = 32 AD, the cross right to the year!"

A little problem with this:

Yes, a hebrew year is somewhat shorter on average than a solar year.

BUT

Not all Hebrew years are equal. A Hebrew year can have as many as 385 days. A 30 day ‘leap month’ is inserted as necessary to keep the Hebrew calendar in synch with the seasons. Otherwise, the feasts and holidays would fall in the wrong season. The ‘conversion number’ .9857 appears no where in discussions of mathematics and Hebrew calendars, except as referencing this prophecy theory.

geocities.com/Athens/1584/#04
google.com/search?q=+.9857++hebrew+year&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial

7 x 7 Hebrew years = 48.3 Solar years. 444 BC - 48.3 = 395.7 BC…

The ‘conversion formula’ has been shown to be invalid.
JohnWilliams;1668337:

…Malachi was inspired to write the last book of the Old Testament in about 396 BC.

Malachi wrote ‘about’ 396 B.C.? - The first reference I pulled up for the date this book as written was 445 B.C., putting it before Nehemiah’s time. Another put it at 400 B.C., Another put it much later, only about 200 B.C. The point is not to debate the merits of the different date ranges, but to point out that there is nothing in the bible or in history to peg the writing of the book of Malachi at 396 B.C., exactly. Even the author of this theory has to admit to ‘about’.

The Scripture to the Jews was complete, and no more was written until the New Testament era!

There was no established list of authoritative books of scripture until several hundred years AFTER the time of Jesus. Many books of scripture, contained in the Septuagint, the Greek scriptures Jesus quoted from most often, were written later than Malachi.

(Continued)

 

[MarysRoses]

The language of prophecy wherein we calculate “each day for a year” was well understood by those of “the former age and their fathers”, and this method may repeatedly confirm that we are indeed living in the “time of the end”.
Ezekiel 4:6: And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

In this instance days are used to represent years. It would have been impossible for Ezekiel to have stayed in bed for 40 years.

But not every instance of ‘days’ in the bible means years. Jesus spent forty days in the wilderness, not forty years. Sometimes days are just days. Sometimes a ‘day’ is as a ‘thousand years’.

Taking a verse out of one context and imposing it on another book written by a different person at a different time is not a reliable way to interpret the bible.

The mathematics combined with the application of sound hermeneutic rules further advances this textually inescapable conclusion. Let’s explore some examples employing the uniform application of these principles.
The following is a study of just 7 of the problems from Daniel and Revelation employing the language of prophecy wherein we count “each day for a year”.

What are these ‘sound rules’. Who devised them and how do we know they have the authority to interpret scripture?

Seventh-day Adventists use the ‘day for a year’ method and arrive and wildly different conclusions.

A SAMPLE OF DANIEL’S MATH

In this first problem alone we will find that in 3 consecutive verses Daniel pegged, exact to the year, the relationship of 3 separate events, spanning 483 Hebrew years, that were all in his future, but came to pass just as he prophesied. …

…If so, then we have 69 x 7 or 483 Hebrew years. Using a multiplier of .9857, to reconcile Daniel’s Hebrew years with the solar year units of our modern historical record, yields: 483 x .9857 = 476 solar years. Artaxerxes’ decree in 444 BC + 476 years = 32 AD, the cross right to the year!"

A little problem with this:

Yes, a hebrew year is somewhat shorter on average than a solar year.

BUT

Not all Hebrew years are equal. A Hebrew year can have as many as 385 days. A 30 day ‘leap month’ is inserted as necessary to keep the Hebrew calendar in synch with the seasons. Otherwise, the feasts and holidays would fall in the wrong season. The ‘conversion number’ .9857 appears no where in discussions of mathematics and Hebrew calendars, except as referencing this prophecy theory.

geocities.com/Athens/1584/#04
google.com/search?q=+.9857++hebrew+year&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial

7 x 7 Hebrew years = 48.3 Solar years. 444 BC - 48.3 = 395.7 BC…

The ‘conversion formula’ has been shown to be invalid.
JohnWilliams;1668337:

…Malachi was inspired to write the last book of the Old Testament in about 396 BC.

Malachi wrote ‘about’ 396 B.C.? - The first reference I pulled up for the date this book as written was 445 B.C., putting it before Nehemiah’s time. Another put it at 400 B.C., Another put it much later, only about 200 B.C. The point is not to debate the merits of the different date ranges, but to point out that there is nothing in the bible or in history to peg the writing of the book of Malachi at 396 B.C., exactly. Even the author of this theory has to admit to ‘about’.

The Scripture to the Jews was complete, and no more was written until the New Testament era!

There was no established list of authoritative books of scripture until several hundred years AFTER the time of Jesus. Many books of scripture, contained in the Septuagint, the Greek scriptures Jesus quoted from most often, were written later than Malachi. Whether you accept these books or not, they were in use during the first century.

(Continued)

 

[MarysRoses]

1. Maybe another Old Testament problem is in order:
   Daniel 12:11: And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Sacrifices were suspended three times in the Old Testament: once before Daniel (Chronicles 28:24-25), once during the Babylonian captivity in 583 BC (Chronicles 36:19 and Ezra 3:6), and once, about four hundred years later, by the Greek king Antiochus Epiphanies. So to which event do you suppose the Lord might be referring? Well, to whom was this prophecy given? To Daniel. Result: we have every reason to believe that the Lord was referring to sacrifices that were abolished during Daniel’s own lifetime: to an abolition of sacrifices to which Daniel could relate!

These Old Testament day/years would also be something that Daniel could relate to or 1290 - 360 day - Hebrew years, each year being equal to .9857 solar year. 1290 x .9857=1271.5 solar years. Subtracting 583 (because it is BC) we get … 688.5 AD. A quick Yahoo search confirms that this was the year that construction began on the Dome of the Rock

Again, the calculations are arbitrary… but is this ending date even accurate?

Great buildings online, a secular website puts the date at 684:
greatbuildings.com/buildings/Dome_of_the_Rock.htm

An architecture website, again, secular puts it at 691:
archnet.org/library/sites/one-site.tcl?site_id=41

So it seems there is no way to verify an exact year in which this shrine was completed. As for the starting date, Look below for its problems.

1. Let’s try the very next verse:
   Daniel 12:12: *Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the *thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

1335 x .9857 = 1315.9 - 583 (BC) = 732.9 AD A quick Yahoo search determines that 732 was the year of the Battle of Tours, France.

A date with some historical documentation! But what date was used as a starting point?

583 B.C., the babylonian captivity.

The Babylonian captivity lasted 70 years, aproximately from
598-515 B.C. That makes it rather easy to pick a date which works out to the desired conclusion. The suspension of sacrifices at the Jerusalem temple lasted more than one year. There is no exact method of determining a specific date.

CONTINUED

 

[MarysRoses]

Daniel’s successive kingdom beasts of lion, bear and leopard (which Bible scholars recognize as Babylon, Medo-Pursia, and Greece) are today united in antichrist, as the composite leopard-bear-lion - BEAST - we find in Revelation 13. This same geographical region today is occupied by Iran, Iraq, and Syria/Lebanon. Mathematically and textually this verse works perfectly.

Supposition, and what happens if Iraq and Iran (or pick any combination of the above nations) go to war again as they have in the recent past?

Since John lived during a later period that used a solar calendar, writing Revelation in about 95 AD, we don’t need to adjust the math for prophetic Hebrew years the way we did for Daniel, since the solar years of our historical record are the same as John’s solar years.

What evidence do we have that John didn’t use the Hebrew calendar he was accustomed to? Why switch counting methods, other than again, to try to twist dates and make them fit a pre determined outcome.

If we start with a presumption

Thats the entire problem with this theory, its built on presumption and estimation. Thats far from "mathematical perfection’ as claimed in the Title.

(continued)

 

[MarysRoses]

The Bible defines the two witnesses as the Jewish and Christian church …

It does? Where? Chapter and verse please.

… Employing the scriptural adjacency rule of hermeneutics we learn: …

Where can we find this rule? Who made the rule? How did they find the rule? How do we know they had the authority to interpret the bible that way?

Many of the “former age” understood this interpretation of the two witnesses:
Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles … "
Or more recently Jamieson Faucett and Brown "…, I think the twofold Church, Jewish and Gentile, may be meant by the two candlesticks represented by the two witnesses … "

Who are these people and why should we trust their interpretation? I notice they don’t even agree…

1948 marked the end of the Christian era and entry into the “time of the end”.

We should take your word for it?

The world has seen difficult times before. Jesus will come again.
What the bible actually says about the time of his return, is that we will not know when.

Are the math problems above and their solutions merely a series of accidents or flukes?

I say a fluke.

The book “The Bible Code” used various ways of crunching the letters and their numerical values to reach all kinds of impressive ‘prophecies’.

Seventh-day adventists use the same verses given here and apply interpretations and numerical calculations to arrive at their own wildly different versions of end times events. What gives this system any more validity than those?

As a former Adventist, I took a close look at their prophecy calculations and came to the conclusion that history and reason did not support the suppositions and estimations used by them to arrive at their version of 'Mathematical Perfection of Prophecy." This version is similarly flawed.

MarysRoses

 

[JohnWilliams]

In this instance days are used to represent years. It would have been impossible for Ezekiel to have stayed in bed for 40 years.

That’s right. And I don’t believe a day equals a year in our natural realm. The point you seem to be missing is what if these days weeks etc. were a language. Certainly it wasn’t lost on Matthew Henry or Thieleman van Braght and many others prior to the 20th century. There is more than a single reference alluding to this possible “language”.

Numbers 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, [even] forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, [even] forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
Ezekel 4:5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

The only other “what if” that is exercised in the math is the hebrew year “language” of Old Testament prophecy. That is “what if” the Lord meant for us to use a 30 day month. We all know that in the natural world the seasons would have changed if the Jews had stuck to a 30 day calendar without the 290 day (I think) year periodic adjustment. What this does is say what if the Lord meant for us to understand this way how would the math come out?
Genesis alluded to a 30 day language with the account of the flood lasting for 5 - 30 day months to total 150 days.

But not every instance of ‘days’ in the bible means years. Jesus spent forty days in the wilderness, not forty years. Sometimes days are just days. Sometimes a ‘day’ is as a ‘thousand years’.

That’s right and I believe that this is very germain to the “times” problems that seem to be assigned to us.

Taking a verse out of one context and imposing it on another book written by a different person at a different time is not a reliable way to interpret the bible.

But prophetic days weeks (sevens in OT) are common throughout both testaments.

What are these ‘sound rules’. Who devised them and how do we know they have the authority to interpret scripture?

Studies employing the use of the principles of hermeneutics, I believe originated with study of Scripture. It is used today to study scripture and every other type of literature from poetry to legal documents. search.yahoo.com/search?p=hermeneutics&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

Seventh-day Adventists use the ‘day for a year’ method and arrive and wildly different conclusions.

A little problem with this:

Yes, a hebrew year is somewhat shorter on average than a solar year.

BUT

Not all Hebrew years are equal. A Hebrew year can have as many as 385 days. A 30 day ‘leap month’ is inserted as necessary to keep the Hebrew calendar in synch with the seasons. Otherwise, the feasts and holidays would fall in the wrong season. The ‘conversion number’ .9857 appears no where in discussions of mathematics and Hebrew calendars, except as referencing this prophecy theory.
geocities.com/Athens/1584/#04
google.com/search?q=+.9857++hebrew+year&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial

The ‘conversion formula’ has been shown to be invalid.

Your post was so long I am answering as I go along. I already answered this in part above as “language”, rather than the functional Hebrew calendar. I’ll come back to the links you posted but here is a fun site regarding the perfection of the 360 day calendar: 360calendar.com/

The multiplier comes from the 360 day year divided by the average solar year of 365.24. This equals the miltiplier above. This is applied UNIFORMALLY to all of the Old Testament prophecy of prophetic “days”. The Jews obviouslydidn’t know a solar day. This is about a prophetic language. I believe that the book and the words of Daniel was sealed until the “time of the end”. I believe our knowledge of that book and scripture are to increase in the time of the end.

Malachi wrote ‘about’ 396 B.C.? - The first reference I pulled up for the date this book as written was 445 B.C., putting it before Nehemiah’s time. Another put it at 400 B.C., Another put it much later, only about 200 B.C. The point is not to debate the merits of the different date ranges, but to point out that there is nothing in the bible or in history to peg the writing of the book of Malachi at 396 B.C., exactly. Even the author of this theory has to admit to ‘about’.

CONTINUED

 

[MarysRoses]

---

That’s right. And I don’t believe a day equals a year in our natural realm. The point you seem to be missing is what if these days weeks etc. were a language. Certainly it wasn’t lost on Matthew Henry or Thieleman van Braght and many others prior to the 20th century. There is more than a single reference alluding to this possible “language”.

I’m not missing the point. This ‘language’ is something imposed on the scripture in question long after it was written. In your quotations, the days in question are clearly identified as representing a year. There are many references to days where no link to a an equal number of years is mentioned. To pick out out a few verses while passing over others for this special ‘language’ is arbitrary.

The only other “what if” that is exercised in the math is the hebrew year “language” of Old Testament prophecy. That is “what if” the Lord meant for us to use a 30 day month. We all know that in the natural world the seasons would have changed if the Jews had stuck to a 30 day calendar without the 290 day (I think) year periodic adjustment. What this does is say what if the Lord meant for us to understand this way how would the math come out?

The Hebrew months were not always 30 days. Again, you are illustrating that this ‘language’ is an arbitrary formula imposed on scripture from outside.

Studies employing the use of the principles of hermeneutics, I believe originated with study of Scripture. It is used today to study scripture and every other type of literature from poetry to legal documents.

Hermeneutics … the theory and practice of interpretation…

Yes, interpretation is practiced for a great many things, but there are many, many different systems, with different rules and assumptions, for different subject matter and developed according to the beliefs and biases of whoever created the different systems. Which system and set of assumptions you use, will dramatically affect the results.

Thats like computer programing: The results are only as good as the original data and the program that crunches it. This principle is otherwise known as Garbage IN, Garbage OUT. There are different ideas on what constitutes valid and reliable biblical interpretation. There is no one set of rules that are universally accepted without question. What i’m asking is what rules does this theory use?

Again, there are many systems of interpretation that when imposed on scripture, yield an interesting result. That does not necessarily make any of them valid. Is the Bible Code valid becuase it hit on some interesting results that look like prophecy?

MarysRoses

 

[JohnWilliams]

CONTINUED FROM POST #8

Nor does the author believe that our historical record can be depended on for more that a couple of years accuracy as evidenced by the first post. But here is a site from a bunch of math savvy guys that calculate the odds of just a single element of just the first problem presented here, coming to within even a couple of years of being accurate: members.aol.com/SHinrichs9/critic7/critic7.htm

And in spite of some of the alternate possibliliies surrounding a couple of the dates being within a year or two, these problems all work together through this uniform method, to confirm each other, generally to very widely accepted historical dates - to the year. You selected one date arbitrarily but how about the date of the battle of Tours? Or Jesus Crucifixion, or the Dome of the Rock?

In regard to the most variable date that you selected in Malachi 450-400 BC is generally accepted.
Regarding 1967, 1948, 688 which you will find is the most widely accepted date for the founding of the dome of the rock as clearing began in 685 and construction continued until 705. search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geut3eUF5FnlcBeEhXNyoA?p=688+dome+of+the+rock&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&x=wrt
732 is the date widely accepted for the Battle of Tours France search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geupfpUF5F0h0BRzhXNyoA?p=732+battle+of+tours&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&x=wrt
444-445 BC is not an unusual date for rebuilding Jerusalem and its walls search.yahoo.com/search?p=+444-445+BC+restore+Jerusalem+and+rebuild+its+walls.&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

But then you don’t seem to be trying to simply consider the “what if” of this “language”. Nor should you if you don’t feel the Lord’s lead.

And this study as presented is hopelessly out of context and I could go blue trying to present it’s entirety through single questions. This is exerpted from an entire linear-historic Bible study of Dan-Rev.

Maybe you will find it interesting reading. Maybe someone else here will.

ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters1-9.pdf
ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters10-17.pdf

 

[MarysRoses]

CONTINUED FROM POST #8

Nor does the author believe that our historical record can be depended on for more that a couple of years accuracy as evidenced by the first post.

If it isn’t possible to find accurate verifyable dates for ALL the various points, the system is utterly meaningless. On close examination the essential rule is this: 'Pick the year that fits and go with that"

But here is a site from a bunch of math savvy guys that calculate the odds of just a single element of just the first problem presented here, coming to within even a couple of years of being accurate: members.aol.com/SHinrichs9/critic7/critic7.htm

If you manipulate the data well enough you can ‘prove’ anything.

And in spite of some of the alternate possibliliies surrounding a couple of the dates being within a year or two, these problems all work together through this uniform method, to confirm each other, generally to very widely accepted historical dates - to the year. You selected one date arbitrarily but how about the date of the battle of Tours? Or Jesus Crucifixion, or the Dome of the Rock?

I used more than one date. The date of the Battle of Tours, the ending date is established, but the starting date, just as important as the ending date, falls in a range of dates, not a specific year. There are a range of dates for the crucifixtion and the construction of the Dome of the Rock.

Missing the dates by several years beginning or ending or both, is hardly ‘Perfection’.

In regard to the most variable date that you selected in Malachi 450-400 BC is generally accepted.

So the article selected 398 B.C. because it fit.

Regarding 1967, 1948, 688 which you will find is the most widely accepted date for the founding of the dome of the rock as clearing began in 685 and construction continued until 705.

Exactly what I said, a range of dates, pick the one that fits.

search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geut3eUF5FnlcBeEhXNyoA?p=688+dome+of+the+rock&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&x=wrt
732 is the date widely accepted for the Battle of Tours France search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geupfpUF5F0h0BRzhXNyoA?p=732+battle+of+tours&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&x=wrt
444-445 BC is not an unusual date for rebuilding Jerusalem and its walls.

So its not unusual, but again, its hardly a firmly established date, it is once again a range of possibilities.

But then you don’t seem to be trying to simply consider the “what if” of this “language”. Nor should you if you don’t feel the Lord’s lead.

Good biblical study should rely on more than ‘What if’" and feelings.

And this study as presented is hopelessly out of context and I could go blue trying to present it’s entirety through single questions. This is exerpted from an entire linear-historic Bible study of Dan-Rev.

This theory should be placed in the context of all the attempts of the last two hundred years to work out numerical ‘solutions’ to the apocalyptic writings of the bible. The most famous of which were the sensational presentations of William Miller, who’s mathematics based on the 2300 day prophecy led thousands of people to sell their belongings and wait on Jesus to appear October 22, 1844. Obviously that didn’t happen. His dissapointed followers formed several splinter groups and are still presenting variations on the theme today.

Advent Christians, Church of God of Prophecy, Seventh-day Adventist and Jehovah’s Witnessess can trace their roots to the Millerites.

Maybe you will find it interesting reading. Maybe someone else here will.

ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters1-9.pdf
ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters10-17.pdf

As a Catholic I am thankful we have the fullness of Truth, the entire Holy Scriptures and 2000 years of the teaching of the Church to guide us in our bible studies. There are a lot of wild theories out there.

MarysRoses

 

[JohnWilliams]

If it isn’t possible to find accurate verifyable dates for ALL the various points, the system is utterly meaningless. On close examination the essential rule is this: 'Pick the year that fits and go with that"

I guess you missed the mathematical probabilities of just a single element, of just a single one of these problems, coming to within even a couple of years of being correct.
members.aol.com/SHinrichs9/critic7/critic7.htm

If you manipulate the data well enough you can ‘prove’ anything.

I used more than one date. The date of the Battle of Tours, the ending date is established, but the starting date, just as important as the ending date, falls in a range of dates, not a specific year. There are a range of dates for the crucifixtion and the construction of the Dome of the Rock.

Missing the dates by several years beginning or ending or both, is hardly ‘Perfection’.

So the article selected 398 B.C. because it fit.

Exactly what I said, a range of dates, pick the one that fits.

So its not unusual, but again, its hardly a firmly established date, it is once again a range of possibilities.

Good biblical study should rely on more than ‘What if’" and feelings.

This theory should be placed in the context of all the attempts of the last two hundred years to work out numerical ‘solutions’ to the apocalyptic writings of the bible. The most famous of which were the sensational presentations of William Miller, who’s mathematics based on the 2300 day prophecy led thousands of people to sell their belongings and wait on Jesus to appear October 22, 1844. Obviously that didn’t happen. His dissapointed followers formed several splinter groups and are still presenting variations on the theme today.

Advent Christians, Church of God of Prophecy, Seventh-day Adventist and Jehovah’s Witnessess can trace their roots to the Millerites.

As a Catholic I am thankful we have the fullness of Truth, the entire Holy Scriptures

But do you?

and 2000 years of the teaching of the Church to guide us in our bible studies. There are a lot of wild theories out there.

MarysRoses

I understand your resistance to reading a plain language and scripturaly supportable Bible study, that discusses FULFILLED prophecy (not futurist speculation), that may disagree with your doctrine. Folks of all denominations tend to look away when something seems to disagree with what they have been taught.

In this forum I have even witnessed fear expressed of a King James Bible. I don’t believe any version is perfect including Greek or Hebrew/interlinears. Some of the more than dozen of these prophetic problems assigned to us by scripture, that reinforce the problems in this thread, might be a mystery to a lay reader of the “New American Bible” since this version mistranslates, the term “times”, for example, and a doctrinal interpretation instead.

New American Bible:
25 He shall speak against the Most High and oppress the holy ones of the Most High, thinking to change the feast days and the law. They shall be handed over to him for a year, two years, and a half-year.

King James:
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Is a “time” a year? The Hebrew word for day is yom - yowm {yome}. The Hebrew word for year is shaneh (fem.) shana.
The Hebrew and High Syriac words for time (as used in Dan 7:25 and 12:7) are iddan and moadah.

Would the Creator of the universe know the difference between iddan, moadah, yom, and shaneh? If so, then might iddan iddan (time), and moadah (time), mean something else?

The New American Bible precludes the reader from even understanding that there is a large question surrounding this term, by applying a doctrinal interpretation of this extremely important word, instead of translating.

CONTINUED

 

[JohnWilliams]

Regarding your take on the math, while I was looking up the above verses I found this in the “New American Bible” without it even being what I was looking for “Actually, this corresponds fairly accurately to the duration of …”

You see the mathematical perfection and interconnecton of Daniel and Revelation proffered above “correspond fairly accurately to” the most widely acceptable historical dates proffered above, with the one that is the most vague being the one that you seem to want to choose to dwell on, instead of simply setting it aside for a moment and considering the merits of the rest. You cannot say that 396 BC is not a perfectly valad date for that problem, and the rest of the historical dating you will find are relatively irrefutable, within the couple of year accuracy question that we both understand. I can show you repeatedly, perhaps a dozen and a half times, how 2+2=4, and you are certainly at liberty to say “yea but 2+3 doesn’t equal 4” and you would be correct.

I offered you a link that discusses the odds of a single element of a single problem above (69 weeks) coming out to within a couple of years of being accurate. So the what do you suppose the odds are, that the combined 9 elements above, conspire to become one mulit-faceted interconnected mathematical accident?
members.aol.com/SHinrichs9/critic7/critic7.htm

Regarding doctrine trumping the truth of God’s Holy Word, particularly as driving translations, Jesus gave some advice to the Pharasees that I think you will readily agree, readily applies in today’s Churches. It is unlikely that you will believe it applies to yours, any more than a protestant believes it applies to theirs, but I believe it applies to all, particularly mainstream churches.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

I will check back in in a week or so.

 

[MarysRoses]

I guess you missed the mathematical probabilities of just a single element, of just a single one of these problems, coming to within even a couple of years of being correct.
members.aol.com/SHinrichs9/critic7/critic7.htm

Picking a date out of a broad range of possible dates simply is not impressive. 398 B.C. is a valid POSSIBILITY. It could be as much as hundred years or more off though. No one knows the exact date. We know the ending date within a year or two. So, count back whatever number of years you need, and pick a date, 396 B.C. fits! and its generally in the range of 450-400 B.C.! woohoo! you had at least 50 and probably 100 different years that are also valid POSSIBILITIES. The calculation you keep linking assumes an exact start year and only two possibilities for the ending year. The reality is that the start date was calculated from the two most likely ending dates, to arrive at this ‘miracle’. There is no proof whatsoever that 396 B.C. is anything more than a convenient platform to launch this theory. No one knows the exact date, thats why there is an estimate expressed as a range of possibility.

This is as impressive as predicting we will have a new president in 2008.

But do you?
I understand your resistance to reading a plain language and scripturaly supportable Bible study, that discusses FULFILLED prophecy (not futurist speculation), that may disagree with your doctrine. Folks of all denominations tend to look away when something seems to disagree with what they have been taught.

Its not fear to point out problems. Mathematical theories about the apocalyptic books are nothing new and this one is as full of holes as the rest of the ideas floating around. It only impresses those who want to believe.

In this forum I have even witnessed fear expressed of a King James Bible. I don’t believe any version is perfect including Greek or Hebrew/interlinears. Some of the more than dozen of these prophetic problems assigned to us by scripture, that reinforce the problems in this thread, might be a mystery to a lay reader of the “New American Bible” since this version mistranslates, the term “times”, for example, and a doctrinal interpretation instead.

I never even said I use this version, and actually I don’t. The problem is that the Old Testament did not end with Malachi.
At least not until Protestants removed the seven deuterocanonical books, leaving a four hundred year ‘gap’ in scripture. If you used a complete bible this theory would never get off the ground.

New American Bible:
25 He shall speak against the Most High and oppress the holy ones of the Most High, thinking to change the feast days and the law. They shall be handed over to him for a year, two years, and a half-year.

King James:
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Is a “time” a year? The Hebrew word for day is yom - yowm {yome}. The Hebrew word for year is shaneh (fem.) shana.
The Hebrew and High Syriac words for time (as used in Dan 7:25 and 12:7) are iddan and moadah.

Would the Creator of the universe know the difference between iddan, moadah, yom, and shaneh? If so, then might iddan iddan (time), and moadah (time), mean something else?

The New American Bible precludes the reader from even understanding that there is a large question surrounding this term, by applying a doctrinal interpretation of this extremely important word, instead of translating.

I knew at some point you would get around to insinuating a Catholic plot to deprive the world of this new innovation in scripture reading Whatever the may be best translation, the dates don’t work! This is the flaw in every single one of these theories. They are full of assumption, guesswork, and outright manipulation of history to arrive at their supposed ‘perfection’.

MarysRoses

Continued…

 

[MarysRoses]

Regarding your take on the math, while I was looking up the above verses I found this in the “New American Bible” without it even being what I was looking for “Actually, this corresponds fairly accurately to the duration of …”

did you fail to post the rest of your thought?

You see the mathematical perfection and interconnecton of Daniel and Revelation proffered above “correspond fairly accurately to” the most widely acceptable historical dates proffered above, with the one that is the most vague being the one that you seem to want to choose to dwell on, instead of simply setting it aside for a moment and considering the merits of the rest. You cannot say that 396 BC is not a perfectly valad date for that problem, and the rest of the historical dating you will find are relatively irrefutable, within the couple of year accuracy question that we both understand. I can show you repeatedly, perhaps a dozen and a half times, how 2+2=4, and you are certainly at liberty to say “yea but 2+3 doesn’t equal 4” and you would be correct.

396 B.C. is a perfectly valid POSSIBILITY. There is not one shred of evidence it is the actual year.

I offered you a link that discusses the odds of a single element of a single problem above (69 weeks) coming out to within a couple of years of being accurate. So the what do you suppose the odds are, that the combined 9 elements above, conspire to become one mulit-faceted interconnected mathematical accident?
members.aol.com/SHinrichs9/critic7/critic7.htm

I seem to remember the prophecy as refering to 70 weeks… I’m sure you have some reason for chopping a week off… maybe 70 weeks wouldn’t fit into the pre determined outcome you were looking for?

Regarding doctrine trumping the truth of God’s Holy Word, particularly as driving translations, Jesus gave some advice to the Pharasees that I think you will readily agree, readily applies in today’s Churches. It is unlikely that you will believe it applies to yours, any more than a protestant believes it applies to theirs, but I believe it applies to all, particularly mainstream churches.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

I will check back in in a week or so.

Are you sure it doesn’t apply to yours?

How would you know? Do you have any authority outside your own thoughts and ideas? Or are you your own authority and own judge? Why should we believe you over the other thousands of people pushing their ideas?

MarysRoses

 

[MarysRoses]

You see the mathematical perfection and interconnecton of Daniel and Revelation proffered above “correspond fairly accurately to” the most widely acceptable historical dates proffered above…,

Just another thought…

Since when does ‘Perfection’ equal “correspond fairly accurately to”

Do I get to pass Algebra with an A+ if i’m ‘fairly accurate’ and my answers ‘generally correspond’ to the answer key?

Wouldn’t that be sweet!

MarysRoses

 

[JohnWilliams]

Just another thought…

Since when does ‘Perfection’ equal “correspond fairly accurately to”

Do I get to pass Algebra with an A+ if i’m ‘fairly accurate’ and my answers ‘generally correspond’ to the answer key?

Wouldn’t that be sweet!

MarysRoses

You seem to have missed the earlier link that calculated the odds of just a single element, of just a single one of the math problems above (the 69 weeks), coming within even a couple of years of being correct. members.aol.com/SHinrichs9/critic7/critic7.htm

While you continue to choose to discuss the least significant element of one problem out of the group, you seem to have trouble understanding the odds of this group of problems as a whole, even coming out remotely close, using a uniform method of calculation. The above website can help here. But the problems in the OP are just a sampling of those explored in The False Prophet.

It does not surprise me that you do not have an interest in exploring this. Likely not one person in a thousand would be likely to continue from the moment that something doesn’t agree with their chosen dogma.

I posted it for that person who might be interested in this particular exploration, or Bible stidy, of God’s Holy Word.

ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters1-9.pdf
ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters10-17.pdf

 

[JohnWilliams]

Picking a date out of a broad range of possible dates simply is not impressive. 398 B.C. is a valid POSSIBILITY. It could be as much as hundred years or more off though. No one knows the exact date. We know the ending date within a year or two. So, count back whatever number of years you need, and pick a date, 396 B.C. fits! and its generally in the range of 450-400 B.C.! woohoo! you had at least 50 and probably 100 different years that are also valid POSSIBILITIES. The calculation you keep linking assumes an exact start year and only two possibilities for the ending year. The reality is that the start date was calculated from the two most likely ending dates, to arrive at this ‘miracle’. There is no proof whatsoever that 396 B.C. is anything more than a convenient platform to launch this theory. No one knows the exact date, thats why there is an estimate expressed as a range of possibility.

This is as impressive as predicting we will have a new president in 2008.

Its not fear to point out problems. Mathematical theories about the apocalyptic books are nothing new and this one is as full of holes as the rest of the ideas floating around. It only impresses those who want to believe.

Were this eschatology limited to the math I could more easily see your point. But the math is supported quite well textually. I couldn’t post the whole book here. Daniel’s lion, bear and leopard as Revelation’s leopard-bear-lion, and such.

I never even said I use this version, and actually I don’t. The problem is that the Old Testament did not end with Malachi.
At least not until Protestants removed the seven deuterocanonical books, leaving a four hundred year ‘gap’ in scripture. If you used a complete bible this theory would never get off the ground.

I knew at some point you would get around to insinuating a Catholic plot to deprive the world of this new innovation in scripture reading .

I thought what I did was compare a verse in two Bible versions. I suppose if a person views the New American Bible as more of a doctrinal commentary rather than a translation it might help in their studies.
I was frankly surprised at the leap in translation from “times” to be “translated” as “years”. I might have expected it from an ultra modern futurist version of scripture.

Whatever the may be best translation, the dates don’t work! This is the flaw in every single one of these theories. They are full of assumption, guesswork, and outright manipulation of history to arrive at their supposed ‘perfection’.

MarysRoses

Continued…

But then you didn’t read it did you?