Matrimony or Bust

[XenaFan]

Msgr. Charles Pope of the Archdiocese of Washington posted this a few weeks ago and it really resonated with me. In it he describes how destructive and discouraging it to modern millennial men and how it’s a source of the marriage crisis. He almost exactly describes my experiences with Christian woman.

Have any of you other millennial men experience what he’s describing?

blog.adw.org/2014/12/matrimony-or-bust-another-glimpse-at-why-and-how-the-demise-of-traditional-marriage/

All the way back in 1973, George Gilder published a book entitled Men and Marriage. He expanded and republished it in 1986. In his book, Gilder argued that our culture was marginalizing men, to its great peril. He articulated the critical role that marriage has in helping men focus their sexual energies in a creative and beneficial way. Women have their nurturing role rather clearly defined in the very design of their bodies. But men’s role in the raising of children and in society in general is less evident. The traditional family gave men a rather clearly defined role that had dignity and supplied them with the feeling that they were needed, indeed essential.

But, as Gilder showed even then, much of that has been stripped away. Feminism and the sexual revolution are sources of the erosion, along with other deleterious social effects. And the erosion of esteem for the roles of husband, father, provider, and leader is hurting not only men, but children, women, and our culture as a whole. For when the sexual energies of men are not channeled toward creative ends, they tend toward destructive ones.

Gilder’s description of the problem is in full blossom today, and more and more social commentators now describe men as increasingly a combination of angry, disengaged, dysfunctional, cynical, fearful, and legally and socially constrained. The wider culture, heavily influenced by feminism, often depicts men as sexual predators, drinkers, imbeciles, buffoons, and as stupid and immature. And after consuming a steady diet of these portraits, some men do indeed display some of these traits.

…

 

[manualman]

What in here can possible describe a man’s experience with catholic woman??

I’m not much impressed with the excuse that men have become wimps because women did it to us. The first step in being a man is stepping up to your own responsibilities. That includes not invoking pathetic excuses for our own failures. We screw up NOT because “feminists have gotten uppity” but because we’re sinners needing a Savior (just like women). Confess it, acknowledge it, get up, dust off and do better next time.

Men have not turned to pathetic self-indulgent wimps because feminists did it to us, they’ve fallen that low by indulging in every desire instead of cultivating virtue and character. Women have their own sinful inclinations, but that’s another thread. And one I’m not interested in participating in. Eye, speck, beam, etc…

 

[Demetra2]

What in here can possible describe a man’s experience with catholic woman??

I’m not much impressed with the excuse that men have become wimps because women did it to us. The first step in being a man is stepping up to your own responsibilities. That includes not invoking pathetic excuses for our own failures. We screw up NOT because “feminists have gotten uppity” but because we’re sinners needing a Savior (just like women). Confess it, acknowledge it, get up, dust off and do better next time.

Men have not turned to pathetic self-indulgent wimps because feminists did it to us, they’ve fallen that low by indulging in every desire instead of cultivating virtue and character. Women have their own sinful inclinations, but that’s another thread. And one I’m not interested in participating in. Eye, speck, beam, etc…

My thoughts also. Catholic men (and all men) should look to themselves and take ownership of their own behavior both good and bad. They can succumb to the culture and blame women or they can rise above the sinful aspects of our culture. It’s just too easy to blame women for the difficulties that they face. There are many women who would be delighted to meet a good faithful Catholic man who is emotionally healthy. Be that man!

 

[MJJean]

What in here can possible describe a man’s experience with catholic woman??

I’m not much impressed with the excuse that men have become wimps because women did it to us. The first step in being a man is stepping up to your own responsibilities. That includes not invoking pathetic excuses for our own failures. We screw up NOT because “feminists have gotten uppity” but because we’re sinners needing a Savior (just like women). Confess it, acknowledge it, get up, dust off and do better next time.

Men have not turned to pathetic self-indulgent wimps because feminists did it to us, they’ve fallen that low by indulging in every desire instead of cultivating virtue and character. Women have their own sinful inclinations, but that’s another thread. And one I’m not interested in participating in. Eye, speck, beam, etc…

Bless you.

My thoughts also. Catholic men (and all men) should look to themselves and take ownership of their own behavior both good and bad. They can succumb to the culture and blame women or they can rise above the sinful aspects of our culture. It’s just too easy to blame women for the difficulties that they face. There are many women who would be delighted to meet a good faithful Catholic man who is emotionally healthy. Be that man!

And bless you, too!

The change isn’t feminism. It’s society. In times past, men and women were expected to behave in a certain way or they risked censure by both the clergy and society. Now, not so much. Society has changed and previously unacceptable behavior has become acceptable. You’re no longer a social pariah if you get divorced or get pregnant outside of marriage or live together. So, a lot of men and women just do whatever they feel like doing and when someone calls them out on it they blame the opposite sex, poor catechesis, etc etc.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Modern feminism has indeed been a problem against the family. Many women have researched this also, such as Christina Hoff Sommers, Sheila Liagminas, Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse, et al. That’s not the culture’s only problem, but the mentality is a detriment.

 

[Demetra2]

Bless you.

And bless you, too!

The change isn’t feminism. It’s society. In times past, men and women were expected to behave in a certain way or they risked censure by both the clergy and society. Now, not so much. Society has changed and previously unacceptable behavior has become acceptable. You’re no longer a social pariah if you get divorced or get pregnant outside of marriage or live together. So, a lot of men and women just do whatever they feel like doing and when someone calls them out on it they blame the opposite sex, poor catechesis, etc etc.

Thank you and many blessing to you in the new year!

 

[BlueEyedLady]

What in here can possible describe a man’s experience with catholic woman??

I’m not much impressed with the excuse that men have become wimps because women did it to us. The first step in being a man is stepping up to your own responsibilities. That includes not invoking pathetic excuses for our own failures. We screw up NOT because “feminists have gotten uppity” but because we’re sinners needing a Savior (just like women). Confess it, acknowledge it, get up, dust off and do better next time.

Men have not turned to pathetic self-indulgent wimps because feminists did it to us, they’ve fallen that low by indulging in every desire instead of cultivating virtue and character. Women have their own sinful inclinations, but that’s another thread. And one I’m not interested in participating in. Eye, speck, beam, etc…

I agree 100%.

I would not be impressed with a 200 lbs woman who ate nothing but potato chips and cookies, didn’t engage in any physical activity, and then blamed her obesity on the lack of quality men and how they relate to her.

Likewise, I’m unimpressed with men who spend all day online, live with their parents, and blame their choices on women.

 

[marymary1975]

What in here can possible describe a man’s experience with catholic woman??

I’m not much impressed with the excuse that men have become wimps because women did it to us. The first step in being a man is stepping up to your own responsibilities. That includes not invoking pathetic excuses for our own failures. We screw up NOT because “feminists have gotten uppity” but because we’re sinners needing a Savior (just like women). Confess it, acknowledge it, get up, dust off and do better next time.

Men have not turned to pathetic self-indulgent wimps because feminists did it to us, they’ve fallen that low by indulging in every desire instead of cultivating virtue and character. Women have their own sinful inclinations, but that’s another thread. And one I’m not interested in participating in. Eye, speck, beam, etc…

 

[MarcoPolo]

I’m unimpressed with men who spend all day online, live with their parents, and blame their choices on women.

Do you know someone defending such an argument?

 

[styrgwillidar]

What in here can possible describe a man’s experience with catholic woman??

I’m not much impressed with the excuse that men have become wimps because women did it to us. The first step in being a man is stepping up to your own responsibilities. That includes not invoking pathetic excuses for our own failures. We screw up NOT because “feminists have gotten uppity” but because we’re sinners needing a Savior (just like women). Confess it, acknowledge it, get up, dust off and do better next time.

Men have not turned to pathetic self-indulgent wimps because feminists did it to us, they’ve fallen that low by indulging in every desire instead of cultivating virtue and character. Women have their own sinful inclinations, but that’s another thread. And one I’m not interested in participating in. Eye, speck, beam, etc…

The problem related to matrimony isn’t- ‘men invoking excuses for our own failures’. But men seeing that the institution of matrimony provides nothing of value to them and deciding not to participate in it. Folks like several of my friends who have started businesses and are quite successful and see marriage as nothing but a risky legal entanglement with no upside justifying the risk. Or those that pursue whatever passions they have in life, quite content with making very little money and see marriage as taking on financial obligations to others with the potential for it to be a lifetime financial obligation even if their partner decides to end the relationship.

Which was George Gilder’s point in ‘Men and Marriage’- that men’s tendency to simply pursue their own passions and not have much interest in improving society in general changes when they become fathers attached to their children. They then become vested in society and its stability and improvement and the sacrifices in working jobs paying more, but not in line with their passions, becomes worthwhile. Marriage, it’s assurance of their paternity of their children and the obligation on the woman for fidelity and loyalty, becomes a mutually beneficial agreement. The current state of matrimony- with no fault divorce, yet obligations for alimony, child support for children which may not even be his, no assurance of fidelity or paternity eliminate the basis making marriage a reasonable endeavor for men to participate in.

 

[manualman]

The current state of matrimony- with no fault divorce, yet obligations for alimony, child support for children which may not even be his, no assurance of fidelity or paternity eliminate the basis making marriage a reasonable endeavor for men to participate in.

I’d suggest that there is a chicken or egg thing going here though. Has societal and cultural deterioration made a successful and fulfilled married life harder for men than in previous generations? Sure. But said societal deterioration certainly hasn’t advanced any BETTER alternative. Certain other options with the allure of money, power, lust, et al are obviously looking attractive to an awful lot of men, but those things are ALL empty promises. Marriage may be harder than ever, but for those called to it, it’s still the only path to real human fulfillment in life. Those opting for false substitutes cannot abrogate the responsibility for their short-sighted choices. Sorry. As always, no risk, no gain.

What’s really going on is that secular feminism has made it respectable for women to be as worthless as rather a lot of men have been over the course of history (whereas in prior eras women were often held to a higher standard). Some would call this progress. Personally, I’d rather that we’d have had reform that demanded more of men than less of women… But it’s still bad form tor men to complain that these days women are as morally depraved as men are and that women should be ashamed for allowing men to get away with their lack of virtue. Again, eye, speck, beam and so forth…

 

[XenaFan]

The problem related to matrimony isn’t- ‘men invoking excuses for our own failures’. But men seeing that the institution of matrimony provides nothing of value to them and deciding not to participate in it. Folks like several of my friends who have started businesses and are quite successful and see marriage as nothing but a risky legal entanglement with no upside justifying the risk. Or those that pursue whatever passions they have in life, quite content with making very little money and see marriage as taking on financial obligations to others with the potential for it to be a lifetime financial obligation even if their partner decides to end the relationship.

Which was George Gilder’s point in ‘Men and Marriage’- that men’s tendency to simply pursue their own passions and not have much interest in improving society in general changes when they become fathers attached to their children. They then become vested in society and its stability and improvement and the sacrifices in working jobs paying more, but not in line with their passions, becomes worthwhile. Marriage, it’s assurance of their paternity of their children and the obligation on the woman for fidelity and loyalty, becomes a mutually beneficial agreement. The current state of matrimony- with no fault divorce, yet obligations for alimony, child support for children which may not even be his, no assurance of fidelity or paternity eliminate the basis making marriage a reasonable endeavor for men to participate in.

Exactly I think your the only one who has read the whole article rather than the bit I’ve quoted. Next time I’ll remember not to quote like that.

 

[Walking_Home]

What in here can possible describe a man’s experience with catholic woman??

I’m not much impressed with the excuse that men have become wimps because women did it to us. The first step in being a man is stepping up to your own responsibilities. That includes not invoking pathetic excuses for our own failures. We screw up NOT because “feminists have gotten uppity” but because we’re sinners needing a Savior (just like women). Confess it, acknowledge it, get up, dust off and do better next time.

Men have not turned to pathetic self-indulgent wimps because feminists did it to us, they’ve fallen that low by indulging in every desire instead of cultivating virtue and character. Women have their own sinful inclinations, but that’s another thread. And one I’m not interested in participating in. Eye, speck, beam, etc…

---

Demetra2:

My thoughts also. Catholic men (and all men) should look to themselves and take ownership of their own behavior both good and bad. They can succumb to the culture and blame women or they can rise above the sinful aspects of our culture. It’s just too easy to blame women for the difficulties that they face. There are many women who would be delighted to meet a good faithful Catholic man who is emotionally healthy. Be that man!

---

 

[manualman]

Exactly I think your the only one who has read the whole article rather than the bit I’ve quoted. Next time I’ll remember not to quote like that.

Nah, I read the article and actually rather liked it. I just felt that your response to the article needed some counterpoint for consideration. It’s all good, don’t feel I’m attacking you as a person. Ideas and people are separate things.

 

[Naskor]

Msgr. Charles Pope of the Archdiocese of Washington posted this a few weeks ago and it really resonated with me. In it he describes how destructive and discouraging it to modern millennial men and how it’s a source of the marriage crisis. He almost exactly describes my experiences with Christian woman.

Have any of you other millennial men experience what he’s describing?

blog.adw.org/2014/12/matrimony-or-bust-another-glimpse-at-why-and-how-the-demise-of-traditional-marriage/

Reminds me of this older article from lifesite news.

lifesitenews.com/news/young-men-giving-up-on-marriage-women-arent-women-anymore

 

[styrgwillidar]

Exactly I think your the only one who has read the whole article rather than the bit I’ve quoted. Next time I’ll remember not to quote like that.

Actually, I’ve read Gilder’s books- (the quote from the article is wrong, the book published in 1973 was “Sexual Suicide” where Gilder (if I remember correctly) puts more blame on men for the marital breakdown. His impression being that successful rich men tired of their wives, dumped them and then got younger wives who were attracted to their status/power/wealth. He saw different groups having different levels of sexual power- young women having the most, then successful men, than on down to single unsuccessful men having the least. His initial approach was that these successful men were abusing their power, marrying a woman in her prime, dumping her as she got older, than marrying another woman in her prime reducing the number of women available to younger men. Who therefore become more disillusioned and alienated from society.

However, after more research he revised “Sexual Suicide” and published it as “Men and Marriage”. He found that it was women dumping the men. The most common reason being dissatisfaction/boredom- just not being happy. The most common reason for men to file in longer marriages was- they couldn’t make their wives happy and were tired frustrated.

Anyway, end result was the same. Marriage was becoming less of a binding contract, the social convention was disintegrating. On the upper end men (whatever the reason for ending first marriages) were still likely to marry again to a younger woman in competition with younger men. On the lower end of the income scale, government programs were replacing men as the source of financial support and making them no longer necessary. I.E. women didn’t have to negotiate the normal give and take of marriage- in the colloquial 'put up with his &*((" to assure support for her children. Women than didn’t need to commit to one man and could go through serial relationships. Men had no emotional ties to women as there was no assurance of paternity. Result being an increasing out of wedlock birthrate and no father in the home. I don’t remember him addressing the no-fault divorce and men rarely getting custody in terms of alienating men from society.

Which is where the books get really interesting. Gilder very clearly stated that the negative consequences were not related to income or race at all. It was the breakdown of the family and the same issues being experienced by minorities, folks in the lower income end of things would be experienced by the rest of us as the out of wedlock birthrate climbed in the other demographics.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Men had no emotional ties to women as there was no assurance of paternity. Result being an increasing out of wedlock birthrate and no father in the home.

Is this related to the objectification of women predicted by Pope Paul VI regarding contraception? i.e. if the man goes into a sexual encounter expecting no child to come forth, he is less likely to look at her as a life partner and mother of his child and more as a temporary means of sexual or emotional satisfaction.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Is this related to the objectification of women predicted by Pope Paul VI regarding contraception? i.e. if the man goes into a sexual encounter expecting no child to come forth, he is less likely to look at her as a life partner and mother of his child and more as a temporary means of sexual or emotional satisfaction.

Well, Gilder didn’t bring that into the discussion. Although I do think that contraceptives and abortion play a large part in reducing women to sex objects vice potential mates/partners. That being that with contraception/abortion the man isn’t looking at every coupling as potentially resulting in children and binding him at least financially to the women for 18yrs via child support. (Of course, he would be fooling himself, there’s always a chance he could become a father and with it the associated legal obligations. Which are only really relevant to men with jobs and steady income).

Gilder was looking at it more from the aspect that with the government becoming the father and providing financial support in the inner city/poor demographic. Women no longer looked at the men they were having sex with as potential mates/partners. They no longer expected or needed them to stick around and provide support. Ergo, women were more likely to have multiple partners, no interest in entering into monogamous relationships or marriage, so men getting involved with them would have no assurance of the paternity of the children and hence not feel any obligation themselves.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

Fr. Charles Pope has written frequently about marriage and family. Those who disagreed with the OP would do well to check out Fr. Pope’s body of work. Strong reading, challenging even, but well worth your time. I sometimes disagree with him, but I respect him for being willing and unafraid to stand up for the traditional Catholic Church and its teachings, yet also talk unflinchingly about the state of our culture and family demographics, hence I read his posts regularly. Here, I’ll indulge you with a few recent links to get you started:

blog.adw.org/2014/12/focused-on-a-functional-family-a-homily-for-the-feast-of-the-holy-family/
blog.adw.org/2014/12/focused-on-the-dysfunctional-a-consideration-of-the-need-for-the-synod-on-the-family-to-refocus-on-the-family/
blog.adw.org/2014/11/good-times-for-dogs-not-so-good-for-babies-a-reflection-on-the-perversity-of-modern-culture/
blog.adw.org/2014/11/a-post-satan-did-not-want-published-but-here-it-is-anyway-in-these-dark-days-the-church-needs-her-men-to-be-men/
blog.adw.org/2014/10/why-do-marriages-fail-heres-one-often-overlooked-root/

 

[Luvz2travel]

I agree 100%.

I would not be impressed with a 200 lbs woman who ate nothing but potato chips and cookies, didn’t engage in any physical activity, and then blamed her obesity on the lack of quality men and how they relate to her.

Likewise, I’m unimpressed with men who spend all day online, live with their parents, and blame their choices on women.

AMEN sister. :clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping: