Matt 11:11 - John the Baptist vs Mary

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gary, you need to take a second look at TimothyH’s point about the Lord’s phrase “there has arisen no greater”. This makes the Lord’s meaning particularly clear since the OT so often speaks of God raising prophets from the midst of the people, and St. John the Baptist is the final one to be raised up to bring the people to the fulfillment of all their hope, the Messiah Christ Jesus. Thus St. John is the greatest of God’s chosen prophets, not greater than the one chosen to be His Mother.
 
Not if Mary was already redeemed at the time Jesus made the statement.

If you do not believe that Mary was so redeemed, you are denying an article of the Faith and you must then remove “Catholic” from your religion profile.
Cat Herder,

Where exactly did I say that Mary was not redeemed? Maybe you ought to try reading what I write before you start telling me how to describe my religious beliefs.

Jesus was certainly aware of Mary’s redeemed status when He made the comment about John the Baptist yet He still said that John the Baptist was the greatest of those born of woman and Mary was born of woman.
 
gary, you need to take a second look at TimothyH’s point about the Lord’s phrase “there has arisen no greater”. This makes the Lord’s meaning particularly clear since the OT so often speaks of God raising prophets from the midst of the people, and St. John the Baptist is the final one to be raised up to bring the people to the fulfillment of all their hope, the Messiah Christ Jesus. Thus St. John is the greatest of God’s chosen prophets, not greater than the one chosen to be His Mother.
I have looked at that comment and I believe that it is irrelevant. Jesus does identify John the Baptist as a prophet but John could just as well have been a fishmonger. When Jesus calls John the greatest of all those born of women, that includes everybody, not just prophets.
 
Jesus was certainly aware of Mary’s redeemed status when He made the comment about John the Baptist yet He still said that John the Baptist was the greatest of those born of woman and Mary was born of woman.
And then He continued and qualified that statement; those in the Kingdom, including Mary, are greater than John the Baptist. You cannot hold your position without excluding Mary from the Kingdom and that is a heresy.
 
I have looked at that comment and I believe that it is irrelevant. Jesus does identify John the Baptist as a prophet but John could just as well have been a fishmonger. When Jesus calls John the greatest of all those born of women, that includes everybody, not just prophets.
Hardly irrelevant since John the Baptist WAS the prophet who arose to announce the arrival of the Messiah. His being that prophet is thus relevant to the passage and the Lord’s comparison of him as that prophet to those who came before him. You’re arguing similarly to those who think “all have sinned” necessarily means that the Blessed Virgin sinned. The Lord Himself was born of a woman; does that make HIM lesser than His cousin?
 
And then He continued and qualified that statement; those in the Kingdom, including Mary, are greater than John the Baptist. You cannot hold your position without excluding Mary from the Kingdom and that is a heresy.
You really need to read more closely before you start throwing around charges of heresy. I’m not excluding Mary from the Kingdom of God at all. I’m just refusing to say that John the Baptist is not also in the Kingdom of God. Since we consider him a saint and celebrate feast days in his honor, he must be in the Kingdom. Jesus said that John was the greatest of all who are born of woman. That covers absolutely everyone in the Kingdom of God, including Mary, except for Adam and Eve who were not born in the usual sense. Unless you are saying that Jesus is saying that John the Baptist is not in the Kingdom of God, which the Church teaches he is, then he is still the greatest man born of woman.

I realize that this is not the main thrust of Jesus’ comment but He said it nonetheless and we have to acknowledge it.
 
Hardly irrelevant since John the Baptist WAS the prophet who arose to announce the arrival of the Messiah. His being that prophet is thus relevant to the passage and the Lord’s comparison of him as that prophet to those who came before him. You’re arguing similarly to those who think “all have sinned” necessarily means that the Blessed Virgin sinned. The Lord Himself was born of a woman; does that make HIM lesser than His cousin?
What does John being a prophet have to do with anything. He was the greatest of any man born of woman. Jesus is an exception because He has a divine nature in addition to His human nature. Neither John nor Mary had that.
 
You really need to read more closely before you start throwing around charges of heresy. I’m not excluding Mary from the Kingdom of God at all. I’m just refusing to say that John the Baptist is not also in the Kingdom of God.
He is now, but he was NOT at the time that Jesus made that statement. He had the same status as the other OT saints. Excepting Enoch and Elijah, none of them were in the Kingdom before Calvary. Mary, however, was redeemed at Her conception and so She was already part of the Kingdom at the time Jesus made the statement.

I have already explained this to you; you seem to be bent on promoting a point of view that leads to a heretical conclusion.
 
What does John being a prophet have to do with anything. He was the greatest of any man born of woman. Jesus is an exception because He has a divine nature in addition to His human nature. Neither John nor Mary had that.
Think carefully about what you have said. Jesus did not make any exceptions; you have added that. Did Mary give birth to a human nature or a Divine Person with both Divine and human natures? If Jesus is a Divine Person, He is greater than John, period. Which is why He went on to say that those in the Kingdom, such as Himself and His Mother are greater than John.
 
Since Cat Herder has decided that it is his/her job to declare me a heretic and he/she does not seem interested in actually discussing the question I brought up, I’ve added him/her to my ignore list. Life is too short to waste it putting up with that nonsense.
 
Since Cat Herder has decided that it is his/her job to declare me a heretic and he/she does not seem interested in actually discussing the question I brought up, I’ve added him/her to my ignore list. Life is too short to waste it putting up with that nonsense.
I never declared you a heretic, first of all. I told you that your position leads to a conclusion that is a heresy and accordingly I questioned whether you accepted the Immaculate Conception and thus were really a Catholic, since you were asserting a position directly contrary to it.

Admittedly I could have been more graceful in doing so, and apologize.
 
What does John being a prophet have to do with anything. He was the greatest of any man born of woman. Jesus is an exception because He has a divine nature in addition to His human nature. Neither John nor Mary had that.
John was the greatest because he was the prophet - that last and greatest of the OT prophets because he announces the Messiah. That is the context of the Lord’s words praising him.
 
Nothing about “born of woman” allows for exempting Mary. It has nothing to do at all with original sin. Mary was born of woman.
Then why the “Immaculate Conception” ? Why is it so important to declare that Mary was born without original sin, if “born of woman” has nothing to do with original sin?
 
The OP’s question posed was asking for help in understanding the passage in light of Catholic teaching. However, I have read thru all the posts from beginning up until now. What I deduce is not that the OP wants help, but merely wants to debate his untenable position with regard to this teaching.
Whenever I have a question, or a doubt about any teaching of the faith or about any bible verse, the first thing I do is pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit. I offer my prayers in the spirit of humility, recognizing that my intellect is not the determining factor in what is true or untrue. I vow to submit to the teachings of the one true church of Jesus Christ and ask for enlightenment in Gods way and time. Peace be with you.
 
Then why the “Immaculate Conception” ? Why is it so important to declare that Mary was born without original sin, if “born of woman” has nothing to do with original sin?
For this to fully make sense, you must actually belive Genesis 6 - Gods Ademic creation of man was inter-bred with ‘the fallen’ ones whoever they were. Noah was the last human who had ‘spotless’ flesh. This was the purpose for a flood. Noahs kids and wife were likely a ‘mix’.

-By the time of Jesus, ‘sin’ was in ALL flesh geneticly, even if you were from the line of Noah. -God cannot take on flesh that contains any intermixed felsh of his enemies. This is why Jesus is FULLY FLESH/man/human because we are NOT and thus not allowed into eternal heaven without it.

-Because Jesus’ flesh body came from Mary, God needed to make a New Eve called Mary which means spotless flesh that would get passed on to Jesus.
-Jesus’ father is God in heaven so he’s abviously not going to inherit the male flesh.
-Hence the mysterious ‘seed of a woman’ in Genesis 3 when the seed has always been through a man except in Mary’s case (meeting the first prophecy in the Bible.)

-A perfect, spottless, fully human flesh, is a literal metphysical requirement for God to take on human body FULLY.
-God’s Spirit works TOGETHER with our ‘carnal mind/spirits’ and thus we are fallible and will sin and never fully understand God, scripture etc. We only have a MEASURE given to us.
-Great theologans are VERY rare through history. Try less than 100 out of BILLIONS of Christians. These people had their gifts through GRACE which is from God, and often gifted in the womb.

-Mary, had pure flesh, thus no carnality tainting her ‘Spirit’ lead thoughts, thus leading to an innocense making her prone to being tricked (like Eve). HOWEVER, unlike Eve, Mary was FULL grace. Some say literally MADE in the womb of grace as the meaning. Thus she would have been sinless from that and God and his angels protecting her.

-Mary might have passed down other traits of unseen ‘spirits’ which are tied to fleshly bodies. Some say there are thosands that keep our body in operation. This is unproven but worth noting it could be more than just skin and bones.

-Like Enoch in Genesis, because Mary was of pure flesh and sinless, she has the ability to be ‘beamed up.’ to heaven like Jesus. See the Shroud of Turin videos for physical proof that this is true. however, there are lower and higher heavens and the kingdom and the father etc. Jesus dying on the cross allows Mary a full assumption to heaven like Jesus. Enoch didnt have this. Mary has the ability to come back down to earth when she wants. Jesus cant do this or it would count as his coming again. For now hes at the right hand of the Father.

-Mary is the only one that can go where she likes in all heavens and our universe hence the Queen of Heaven stuff.

I HIGHLY recommend the 20 min video Our lady Of Guadalupe on Youtube because its a living miracle today which proves all this. God has always been helping the Church through the ages grow and spread because its Jesus own Church afterall 🙂 - he said Church… singular not plural 🙂
 
Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee

All generations will call me blessed

How is it that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (John’s mother Elizabeth to Mary)

Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown with twelve stars

And the woman brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God and to his throne

And the woman fled into the wilderness…
 
In this verse Jesus says that there is no one greater than John the Baptist among those born of women - which includes everyone except Adam and Eve - there is no one greater than John the Baptist.
No, that’s not what it says. It doesn’t say that no one is greater than John the Baptist. It says that no one has risen greater than John the Baptist.

Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (Matthew 11:11)

“Greatest to have risen” refers to prophets. The whole passage has to do with prophets. It does not mean that John the Baptist was greater than all people and has nothing to do with Mary.

John the Baptist is the greatest prophet to have risen. That’s all it means.

-Tim-
 
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