Matt:12;14 three days and three nights

[ericc]

sorry, doesn’t set right with me. 3 days and 3 nights means 3 days and 3 nights.
there’s no vagueness there.

there are things in the Bible that don’t mesh. sad to say.

Besides the Esther 4:16 example, another example is 1 Sam 30:12 where the Egyptian had not eaten/drunk for 3 days and 3 nights yet he said he fell sick 3 days ago. It should have been 4 days ago if properly counted.

3 days and nights is a figure of speech.

 

[PRmerger]

It’s a Jewish idiom.

Incidentally, we don’t take Jesus’ words literally that he would be “in the bowels of the earth” (he was not even buried under ground, let alone the “bowels”), so there seems to be no need to take him literally regarding 3 days and 3 nights.

 

[fred_conty]

3 days and 3 nights:

1 friday
…Friday night after sundown

2 Saturday night before sunup
…Saturday

3.Sunday night before sunup
…Sunday

See how easy that was on eastern standard time.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

It’s a Jewish idiom.

Incidentally, we don’t take Jesus’ words literally that he would be “in the bowels of the earth” (he was not even buried under ground, let alone the “bowels”), so there seems to be no need to take him literally regarding 3 days and 3 nights.

He was placed in a tube like structure, though; especially if you have reviewed the way Jewish tombs were constructed.



OTOH:
Bowls is the word for “womb” or “tummy”; as in mommy has a baby in her tummy; but it’s more than just idiom – it’s also a view of generally understood ancient science.

The intestines of a woman or man were similar enough to the uterine tubing of a woman, that the ancients thought them equivalent in their operation (not their media).

Also, there was a relationship between how the ancients understood agriculture and how they saw sexual reproduction; although there are varying views…

In a simplistic way: Both vegetative and sexual reproduction have a furrow that is plowed, and a seed that is placed in a pit or trench, and the pit or trench contains elements (earth,water,hopefully air) from which something grew. Whether a child, or a plant… was incidental.

IF you study the ancients, you’ll quickly find that the elements were “earth, water, wind, fire”.

So:
When Jonah was in the sea beast/fish/whale – the prophecy says;“in the coils” (bowels --not just the stomach); and Jonah calls it the gates of sheol (the grave), and the pit (an allusion to where water collects, like a womb.)

So, in some ways – it’s actually more surprising that Jesus would be called “firstborn” from the dead, when Jonas is usually understood to be the child whom Elijah resurrected from the dead … and who resurrected a second time in the womb equivalent called leviathan… after three days of judgment…

Where there are TWO or three gathered in my name, there am I in their midst.

But then, idioms will be idioms.

 

[PRmerger]

He was placed in a tube like structure, though; especially if you have reviewed the way Jewish tombs were constructed.



OTOH:
Bowls is the word for “womb” or “tummy”; as in mommy has a baby in her tummy; but it’s more than just idiom – it’s also a view of generally understood ancient science.

The intestines of a woman or man were similar enough to the uterine tubing of a woman, that the ancients thought them equivalent in their operation (not their media).

Also, there was a relationship between how the ancients understood agriculture and how they saw sexual reproduction; although there are varying views…

In a simplistic way: Both vegetative and sexual reproduction have a furrow that is plowed, and a seed that is placed in a pit or trench, and the pit or trench contains elements (earth,water,hopefully air) from which something grew. Whether a child, or a plant… was incidental.

IF you study the ancients, you’ll quickly find that the elements were “earth, water, wind, fire”.

So:
When Jonah was in the sea beast/fish/whale – the prophecy says;“in the coils” (bowels --not just the stomach); and Jonah calls it the gates of sheol (the grave), and the pit (an allusion to where water collects, like a womb.)

So, in some ways – it’s actually more surprising that Jesus would be called “firstborn” from the dead, when Jonas is usually understood to be the child whom Elijah resurrected from the dead … and who resurrected a second time in the womb equivalent called leviathan… after three days of judgment…

Where there are TWO or three gathered in my name, there am I in their midst.

But then, idioms will be idioms.

What do you say, then, to the translations that speak of Jesus being “in the heart of the earth” for 3 days and 3 nights?

How is this to be taken literally?

 

[Huiou_Theou]

What do you say, then, to the translations that speak of Jesus being “in the heart of the earth” for 3 days and 3 nights?

How is this to be taken literally?

As in Matthew 12:40 in some translations?
Or do you have another passage in mind?

I would point to the original underlying Greek:
Matth 12:40 ωσπερ γαρ ην ιωνας εν τη κοιλια του κητους τρεις ημερας και τρεις νυκτας ουτως εσται ο υιος του ανθρωπου εν τη καρδια της γης τρεις ημερας και τρεις νυκτας

Where is says koilia (coils) and say, the translation you cite not-literal.
Heart is cardia (is in cardiac arrest.) it never means heart; so the translator had to use some chain of reasoning that is not strictly about the word itself.

If you read Matthew 12:42, and notice “adultery” mentioned in 12:39 – the sexual link is being emphasized. The queen of the south is a Gentile; and as you can see – the idea of her is tied to “earth” in 12:42.
She came from the farthest (I resist the urge to elucidate) parts of “the earth”.

The one thing Solomon is known for is marrying too many women…

 

[PRmerger]

As in Matthew 12:40 in some translations?
Or do you have another passage in mind?

I would point to the original underlying Greek:
Matth 12:40 ωσπερ γαρ ην ιωνας εν τη κοιλια του κητους τρεις ημερας και τρεις νυκτας ουτως εσται ο υιος του ανθρωπου εν τη καρδια της γης τρεις ημερας και τρεις νυκτας

Where is says koilia (coils) and say, the translation you cite not-literal.
Heart is cardia (is in cardiac arrest.) it never means heart; so the translator had to use some chain of reasoning that is not strictly about the word itself.

If you read Matthew 12:42, and notice “adultery” mentioned in 12:39 – the sexual link is being emphasized. The queen of the south is a Gentile; and as you can see – the idea of her is tied to “earth” in 12:42.
She came from the farthest (I resist the urge to elucidate) parts of “the earth”.

The one thing Solomon is known for is marrying too many women…

I am sorry, but I am not following you. What is it you are trying to say?

 

[Huiou_Theou]

I am sorry, but I am not following you. What is it you are trying to say?

1. The translation “heart” is incorrect.
2. There is a wordplay between Matthew 12:40 and 12:42 regarding earth (and womb) and prophecy.

The resurrection of the dead is an event which allows foreigners into the Kingdom of God; something forbidden up and until this time but foreshadowed in history as part of God’s plan. It is the foreigners, gentiles, whom will condemn the chosen Israelite people’s generation at the time of Jesus.

 

[PRmerger]

1. The translation “heart” is incorrect.
2. There is a wordplay between Matthew 12:40 and 12:42 regarding earth (and womb) and prophecy.

The resurrection of the dead is an event which allows foreigners into the Kingdom of God; something forbidden up and until this time but foreshadowed in history as part of God’s plan. It is the foreigners, gentiles, whom will condemn the chosen Israelite people’s generation at the time of Jesus.

Ah, so none of it is literal, then.

And yet some fundamentalists are adamantine that the rest of the sentence* is *literal. 72 hours on the dot. Curious, that.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Ah, so none of it is literal, then.

And yet some fundamentalists are adamantine that the rest of the sentence* is *literal. 72 hours on the dot. Curious, that.

Yes, it’s metaphorical. I agree with you.
As I said – idioms will be idioms…

Although, I don’t know where the substance comes from for the resurrected body; is it all from heaven, or at least some of it transformed from earth?
Jesus did eat fish after resurrecting… ( I wonder what Jonah ate while in the fish, or after being coughed up…)

There might be something more to the “womb” or “coils” of the earth, but I don’t see anything more to say about the “three days and three nights” as a literal time period of Jesus in the tomb –
On the other hand, I just recalled that the creation account in Genesis, itself, has the week constructed from two sets of three days; and crowned with the saying “on the seventh day God rested.”

Three days and three nights could easily be a short-hand expression for 6 days; or a great work. Synecdic reasoning.

I don’t mean 24 hour days… mind you… but it’s difficult to explain all that in one post let alone 10… Genesis is a very surprising text.

But, notice:
At the end of 6 days of Work, on the Sabbath God rested.
Notably, everyone agrees – Jesus was in the tomb on the Sabbath.
In one sense Jesus slept in the tomb, just as Jonas (before the fish) slept in the hold of the ship; and then in death – Jonas slept in the fish.

And also – In Genesis, before the world was formed – the Greek version of the bible indicates that the earth was “empty” (as in no cargo or treasure in a ship) and without form (like a baby). These aren’t mere coincidences … they have to do with the way creation was understood.

And… one other thing comes to mind:
Prophesying the resurrection, we know what David told us about God resting his feet:

The Lord said to my Lord, COME, sit at my right hand while I make your enemies your footstool.

 

[chosen_people]

Mike Licona covers this topic in his book Paul Meets Muhammad: A Christian-Muslim Debate on the Resurrection on pages 88-89, in the following way

“…the phrase ‘three days and three nights’ is a Jewish idiom meaning a short period of time and does not necessarily have to include three days and three nights. Today we might speak of a long task taking ‘forever.’ We mean that it will take a long time. We do not mean that it will take an infinite amount of time and is incapable of being completed. Likewise, someone may say that something will take ‘only a minute’ This means a very short time, not sixty seconds. These are simply English idioms. Idioms exist in all langauges.”

He then goes on to give an example from the book of Esther where this idiom is also used, when Esther states the following:

“Go, assmeble all the Jews who are found in Susa, and fast for me; do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maidens also will fast in the same way.. And thus I will go in to the king, which is not according to the law; and if I perish, I perish.” (Esther 4:16 NASB)

Two verses later, however, we read:

“Now it came about on the third day that Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king’s palace in front of the king’s rooms, and the king was sitting on his royal throne in the throne room, opposite the entrance to the palace.” (Esther 5:1 NASB)

Licona comments: “Esther did not wait a full three days and three nights. She went to the king on the third day. So that would be two days plus a number of hours.”

Licona also points out that from the Gospel of Matthew itself, the same place where we read the prophecy of “three days and three nights”, we see that three days and three nights is not meant to be taken literally. After Jesus’s crucifixion, the Jewish leaders went to Pilate and said:

“Sir, we remember that while living that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ Theresefore, order the grave to be secured until the third day, lest his disciples come and steal him away and say to the people, ‘He was raised from the dead,’ and the last deceit will be worse than the first.” (Matthew 27:63-34).

.

The Jewish Perspective:

According to Matthew 12:38-40 Jesus was to be buried “in the heart of the earth” for three days and three nights".

Just as you would calculate a day from midnight to midnight, Jews calculate a day from after sundown with the appearance of three stars to after sundown with the appearance of three stars. For all intense and purposes, basically the same thing.

Now according to Luke, Jesus was put in the earth Friday before sundown (see Luke 23:54-55 ,Luke 28:1)

Jesus, according to the Christian scriptures, was resurrected on Sunday morning at or before dawn (Matthew 28:1,John 20:1)

Now if we calculate that any part day of Friday before sundown is a day, then we can conclude that Jesus was in the earth for three days. However, there is no calculation, Jewish,Christian,scientific or any other that Jesus was buried in the earth for three nights. According to the Christian scriptures Jesus was buried in the earth for two nights, Friday night and Saturday night.

Christians claim that Jesus was a Jewish prophet (Matthew 14:5,John 4:44)

They also consider him a god and part of their concept of the trinity. According to Torah, a prophet is a person chosen by God to communicate His will (see Deuteronomy 18:18). So according to Christianity, God can be His own prophet, at the same time both a prophet or messenger of God and God Himself.

Now even if we can overcome the problematic’s of God as His own prophet, we are left with the fact that Jesus falsely prophesied that he would be three nights in the earth and is therefore, according to the Jewish scriptures, a false prophet.

As a prophet is someone chosen by God to speak in His name, if God truly speaks through the mouth of a prophet, every prophesy will come true. The failure of even the most minor detail of a prophesy to not come true is proof that God is not the source of the prophesy. It was precisely to prevent individuals from pretending to be a prophet that the Torah imposes the death penalty for false prophesy:

Deuteronomy 18:18-22:

1. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.
2. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he
   speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.
3. But the prophet who intentionally speaks a word in My name, which I did not command him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.
4. Now if you say to yourself, “How will we know the word that the Lord did not speak?”
5. If the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not occur and does not come about, that is the thing the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it wantonly; you shall not be afraid of him.

 

[PRmerger]

As a prophet is someone chosen by God to speak in His name, if God truly speaks through the mouth of a prophet, every prophesy will come true. The failure of even the most minor detail of a prophesy to not come true is proof that God is not the source of the prophesy.

Not sure I agree that every jot and tittle of a prophecy needs to be proven true or the prophet ought to be dismissed…

but even if I accept that for the sake of discussion, the problem with the above argument is this: perhaps the hearer has misunderstood the jots and tittles and when he says, “You prophesied this jot, but it turns out that it really was a tittle” he is the one in error, not the prophet.

 

[adrift]

They also consider him a god and part of their concept of the trinity.
Deuteronomy 18:18-22:

.

You incorrectly state that we believe Him to be a god NO we beleive Him to be God.

The very same quantity of time which is here termed three days and three nights, and which, in reality, was only one whole day, a part of two others, and two whole nights, is termed three days and three nights, in the book of Esther: Go; neither eat nor drink Three Days, Night or Day, and so I will go in unto the king: Esther 4:16. Afterwards it follows, Esther 5:1.

It is an expression that means 3 days just as Jesus said.

John 2

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

I marvel that there are people who don’t believe, because they think it took one less night for Jesus to rise from the dead than he said.

 

[ericc]

The Jewish Perspective:

Now even if we can overcome the problematic’s of God as His own prophet, we are left with the fact that Jesus falsely prophesied that he would be three nights in the earth and is therefore, according to the Jewish scriptures, a false prophet.

As a prophet is someone chosen by God to speak in His name, if God truly speaks through the mouth of a prophet, every prophesy will come true. The failure of even the most minor detail of a prophesy to not come true is proof that God is not the source of the prophesy. It was precisely to prevent individuals from pretending to be a prophet that the Torah imposes the death penalty for false prophesy:

So in your Scriptures, three days and three nights is to be taken as it is and not a figure of speech? Esther 4:16 and 1 Sam 30:12 are examples of where 3 days and 3 nights are taken to meant 3 days only. Can you enlighten us?

You quoted that Jesus falsely prophesied the 3 days/nights and Torah imposes death penalty for false prophesy. In his trial, I don’t see any charges of false prophesy being successfully charged. Surely your laws don’t put someone to death just because he claimed something wondrous or unbelievable? By your reasoning, you won’t be able to proof Jesus is a false prophet before he was killed right?

 

[Ion]

If this has been covered before, I apologize. Please steer me to the right thread.

Ran across this in Matthew.

Mathew Chapter 12 verse 40
Just as Jonah spent three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of Man spend three days and three nights in the bowels of the earth.

If we take Jesus death on the cross from 3 pm on Friday to his resurection as being at dawn on Sunday (say about 6 am) This amounts to 2 nights (Friday and Saturday) and one+ day (Friday late afternoon and Saturday)

Near as I can figure that totals about 39 hours, not even close to 3 days and 3 nights (72 hours).

I find this somewhat troubling.

Please explain.

James

In my opinion there is an ambiguation in the use of the word “day”, including or not the associated night; another source on ambiguation is about continuity of the period of time, three days, consecutive or separated by other periods of time.
If you think that one day include the associated night, then Friday, which ended at sundown, includes the Friday night which started after Thursday sundown. They are three days and three nights, literary, because a night didn’t have individuality in the calendar. The expression three days and three nights is an idiom to express continuity of the period of time, neither Jonah or Jesus have slept during this time.
May God count my time in purgatory the same way.