Matt 16:18

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Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 16:18 κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ἅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.

I want To ask about… These verse, about Petros and Petra.

In aramaic Peshitta, this verse using Kepha and Kepha.
But this Greek Text using Petros and Petra.

My Question is:
1.Gospel of Matthew is written in Greek or Aramaic? (with proof is better, especially Church Fathers writings)
2.I know that in Koine Greek, there is no difference between Petros and Petra, but i want to explain to my “hard” protestant friend so i need other reference. So how can i proof this Petros and Petra have same meaning? is there any possible proof?
3.I also read in Protestant website, they interpret that Petra is a proof of Peter’s firmness of faith. How to answer this?

Thanks before,

Michael.
 
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 16:18 κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ἅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.

I want To ask about… These verse, about Petros and Petra.

In aramaic Peshitta, this verse using Kepha and Kepha.
But this Greek Text using Petros and Petra.

My Question is:
1.Gospel of Matthew is written in Greek or Aramaic? (with proof is better, especially Church Fathers writings)
2.I know that in Koine Greek, there is no difference between Petros and Petra, but i want to explain to my “hard” protestant friend so i need other reference. So how can i proof this Petros and Petra have same meaning? is there any possible proof?
3.I also read in Protestant website, they interpret that Petra is a proof of Peter’s firmness of faith. How to answer this?

Thanks before,

Michael.
Petros** and Petra– Much Ado About Nothing**

Opponents of the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:18 sometimes argue that in the Greek text the name of the apostle is Petros, while “rock” is rendered as petra. They claim that the former refers to a small stone, while the latter refers to a massive rock; so, if Peter was meant to be the massive rock, why isn’t his name Petra?

Note that Christ did not speak to the disciples in Greek. He spoke Aramaic, the common language of Palestine at that time. In that language the word for rock is kepha, which is what Jesus called him in everyday speech (note that in John 1:42 he was told, “You will be called Cephas”). What Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 was: “You are Kepha, and upon this kepha I will build my Church.”

When Matthew’s Gospel was translated from the original Aramaic to Greek, there arose a problem which did not confront the evangelist when he first composed his account of Christ’s life. In Aramaic the word kepha has the same ending whether it refers to a rock or is used as a man’s name. In Greek, though, the word for rock, petra, is feminine in gender. The translator could use it for the second appearance of kepha in the sentence, but not for the first because it would be inappropriate to give a man a feminine name. So he put a masculine ending on it, and hence Peter became Petros.

Furthermore, the premise of the argument against Peter being the rock is simply false. In first century Greek the words petros and petra were synonyms. They had previously possessed the meanings of “small stone” and “large rock” in some early Greek poetry, but by the first century this distinction was gone, as Protestant Bible scholars admit (see D. A. Carson’s remarks on this passage in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids: Zondervan Books]).

Some of the effect of Christ’s play on words was lost when his statement was translated from the Aramaic into Greek, but that was the best that could be done in Greek. In English, like Aramaic, there is no problem with endings; so an English rendition could read: “You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.”

Consider another point: If the rock really did refer to Christ (as some claim, based on 1 Cor. 10:4, “and the Rock was Christ” though the rock there was a literal, physical rock), why did Matthew leave the passage as it was? In the original Aramaic, and in the English which is a closer parallel to it than is the Greek, the passage is clear enough. Matthew must have realized that his readers would conclude the obvious from “Rock . . . rock.”

If he meant Christ to be understood as the rock, why didn’t he say so? Why did he take a chance and leave it up to Paul to write a clarifying text? This presumes, of course, that 1 Corinthians was written after Matthew’s Gospel; if it came first, it could not have been written to clarify it.

The reason, of course, is that Matthew knew full well that what the sentence seemed to say was just what it really was saying. It was Simon, weak as he was, who was chosen to become the rock and thus the first link in the chain of the papacy.
 
Petra is feminine where as Petros is masculine.

Strongs concordance should help:

G4074
Πέτρος
Petros
pet’-ros
Apparently a primary word; a** rock **(larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock. Compare G2786.

G4073
πέτρα
petra
pet’-ra
Feminine of the same as G4074; a rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.

A better english translation would have been :

Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Rock; and upon this Rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

unless Jesus actually meant the big giant rock of Phillipe Cesare then it would be:

Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Rock; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
 
Randy Carson:
Note that Christ did not speak to the disciples in Greek. He spoke Aramaic, the common language of Palestine at that time. In that language the word for rock is kepha, which is what Jesus called him in everyday speech (note that in John 1:42 he was told, “You will be called Cephas”). What Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 was: "You are Kepha, and upon this kepha I will build my Church."

When Matthew’s Gospel was translated from the original Aramaic to Greek, there arose a problem which did not confront the evangelist when he first composed his account of Christ’s life. In Aramaic the word kepha has the same ending whether it refers to a rock or is used as a man’s name. In Greek, though, the word for rock, petra, is feminine in gender.** The translator could use it for the second appearance of kepha in the sentence, but not for the first because it would be inappropriate to give a man a feminine name. So he put a masculine ending on it, and hence Peter became Petros.**
Wait wait, i try to get your idea.
so Jesus in that Era speak in Aramaic and the Writer he write in Greek. if the writer ignore the grammar so it would be “you are Petra, on this Petra…”

but because Peter is man, so the writer use Petros.

am i right?
Some of the effect of Christ’s play on words was lost when his statement was translated from the Aramaic into Greek, but that was the best that could be done in Greek. In English, like Aramaic, there is no problem with endings; so an English rendition could read: **“You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.” **
I like this one, Peter means Rock. (how could i forget) 😃 😃 😃
Furthermore, the premise of the argument against Peter being the rock is simply false. In first century Greek the words petros and petra were synonyms. They had previously possessed the meanings of “small stone” and “large rock” in some early Greek poetry, but by the first century this distinction was gone, as Protestant Bible scholars admit (see D. A. Carson’s remarks on this passage in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids: Zondervan Books]).
Is there any sample? I’m not found it.

But i found these
geocities.com/athens/rhodes/3543/protprimcy.htm
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801word.asp
 
OP, use my proof instead of Randy’s.

Randy’s proof in not concrete enough for a Protestant.

You will have to first use a Protestant’s Concordance.

Then follow it up with Randy’s stuff.
 
My Question is:
1.Gospel of Matthew is written in Greek or Aramaic? (with proof is better, especially Church Fathers writings)
Actually, Matthew was first written in Hebrew. From Authors of the Gospels:
PAPIAS (c. 60-139) was the bishop of Hieropolis. Eusebius said Papias wrote five books and mentions his commentaries on the Gospels of Matthew and John. Ancient Armenian literature records Papias writing commentaries on Luke and John ((RO 171)). Papias had carefully studied at least three of the Gospels. Hieropolis was close to the Christian centres at Colossae and Laodicea, and about one hundred and fifty kilometres from Ephesus along a good surfaced road. So contact with John the Apostle would have been easy. No doubt John took a great interest in Papias as he trained to be a bishop, and afterwards gave him good advice. His life span overlapped that of John by 30-40 years and Papias speaks of The Presbyter, who traditionally has been identified as John the Apostle. An extract from the fourth book by Papias and preserved by Eusebius reads:
And this the Presbyter used to say: “Mark, being the recorder of Peter, wrote accurately but not in order whatever he [Peter] remembered of the things either said or done by the Lord; for he [Mark] had neither heard the Lord nor followed him, but later, as I said, Peter, who used to make teachings according to the cheias, [a special kind of anecdote] but not making as it were a systematic composition of the Lord’s sayings; so that Mark did not err at all when he wrote certain things just as he had recalled [them]. For he had but one intention, not to leave out anything he had heard, nor to falsify anything in them”. This is what was related by Papias about Mark. But about Matthews this was said: “For Matthew composed the logia [sayings] in Hebrew style; but each recorded them as he was able”`. ((EH 3: 39, 8 and RO 166r)).
2.I know that in Koine Greek, there is no difference between Petros and Petra, but i want to explain to my “hard” protestant friend so i need other reference. So how can i proof this Petros and Petra have same meaning? is there any possible proof?
I don’t know any Greek other than the alphabet, meaning I recognize the words Petros and petra in your original post but that’s about it. I do, however, know that Latin nouns have different endings depending on their case (nominative, vocative, genitive, dative, accusative, and ablative), and that Greek nouns also have case (nominative, vocative, genitive, dative, and accusative).

Perhaps it might help if someone who knows Greek grammar can diagram the sentence and identify what case is being used where?
3.I also read in Protestant website, they interpret that Petra is a proof of Peter’s firmness of faith. How to answer this?
This, from Petros vs. Petra, might help:
Consider Jesus’ response structurally:A. Blessed are you, Simon son of John;
A1. for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you,
A2. but my Father in heaven.
B. And I say to you that you are Rock;
B1. and on this rock I will build my Church,
B2. and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
C. And I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven;
C1. whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven,
C2. and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.Three interrelated statements, each composed of three parts, following the same pattern – a primary declaration (A, B, C) followed by an explanatory doublet commenting the primary declaration.
In all three cases, the primary declaration (A, B, C) is about Peter. Eliding Jesus’ explanatory comments, the saying is summarized: “Blessed are you, Simon son of John … I for my part say to you that you are Rock … and I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.”
Likewise, the doublets explain and comment on the primary statement. Jesus is talking about Peter the whole time. “…for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you / but my Father in heaven” is a commentary on Peter’s blessedness. Likewise, “…whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven / and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” is a commentary on Jesus giving Peter the keys.
In the same way, “and on this rock I will build my Church / and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” is a commentary on Jesus naming Peter “Rock.” This is what it means that Peter is Rock: On this rock He will build His church, etc.
By contrast, on your reading, Jesus changes gears twice, shifting from talking about Peter to talking about something else, to talking about Peter again. “I say to you that you are Rock, and – changing gears a bit – upon this other rock, your confession, I will build my church… And, getting back to you, Peter, I will give you the keys of the kingdom…” Not very persuasive, which is why Protestant as well as Eastern Orthdoox biblical scholarship today acknowledges that the rock Jesus speaks of is Peter himself.
There are other pages that basically say the same thing…
 
@Tram

I already give that Concordance stuff,

see in G4073,

Word: petra petra
Pronounciation: pet’-ra
Root word: from the same as 4074
Source: TDNT - 6:95,834
Written in: rock 16
Definition: 1) a rock, cliff or ledge
1a) a projecting rock, crag, rocky ground
1b) a rock, a large stone
1c) metaph. a man like a rock, by reason of his firmness and
strength of soul


My friend insist that Petra is a proof of Peter Firmness of faith, he said that Peter is the strongest and the most loyal, that’s why he get Petra. (he copy paste from Anti-Catholic sites)
 
@Erich

In hebrew? hmm… so the Aramaic argument can answer it directly.
Aramaic and hebrew is near right?

btw Thanks for the link!
 
My friend insist that Petra is a proof of Peter Firmness of faith, he said that Peter is the strongest and the most loyal, that’s why he get Petra. (he copy paste from Anti-Catholic sites)
Not really when you considered that peter denied christ 3 times and then ran away during the crucificion. His argument does not follow.
 
Wait wait, i try to get your idea.
so Jesus in that Era speak in Aramaic and the Writer he write in Greek. if the writer ignore the grammar so it would be “you are Petra, on this Petra…”

but because Peter is man, so the writer use Petros.

am i right?
You are right. 👍

Just remember, Jesus spoke Aramaic, so he said, “You are kepha and on this kepha I will build…”

The writer converted this to Greek, but petra is feminine so he switched to Petros.

Some people claim that petros means little pebble, but not by the time that the NT was written…only in much earlier Greek.
 
Then why doesn’t the passage go Thou art Petros and on Petros I will build my Church?

The writer uses Petros to refer to Peter then uses Petra to refer to Peter?
 
Then why doesn’t the passage go Thou art Petros and on Petros I will build my Church?

The writer uses Petros to refer to Peter then uses Petra to refer to Peter?
Because they are two different, yet cognate, words in Greek, just like how “president” and “presider” are cognates in English but are nonetheless two different words with different, though related, meanings.
 
Not really when you considered that peter denied christ 3 times and then ran away during the crucificion. His argument does not follow.
Ahh yes, i get it… hahaha… you right, thanks! 😃
You are right. 👍

Just remember, Jesus spoke Aramaic, so he said, “You are kepha and on this kepha I will build…”

The writer converted this to Greek, but petra is feminine so he switched to Petros.

Some people claim that petros means little pebble, but not by the time that the NT was written…only in much earlier Greek.
Ok ok i understand~! 😃 😃 👍

i know how to answer little pebble argument, i usually associate it with Lithos, but this verse using Petra so the argument is useless 😉
Then why doesn’t the passage go Thou art Petros and on Petros I will build my Church?

The writer uses Petros to refer to Peter then uses Petra to refer to Peter?
IMHO, the passage is “thou art Peter and on this Rock”

Thou art Petros, petros here is petra in masculine form.
And Petra, petra is referring to Petros, Jesus is refer to Petros.
 
IMHO, the passage is “thou art Peter and on this Rock”

Thou art Petros, petros here is petra in masculine form.
And Petra, petra is referring to Petros, Jesus is refer to Petros.
So even though the writer of the Gospel knew Jesus is referring to Petros (a man) he chose to use the word Petra making Peter feminine? Why did he do that?
Because they are two different, yet cognate, words in Greek, just like how “president” and “presider” are cognates in English but are nonetheless two different words with different, though related, meanings.
I don’t understand your argument
 
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 16:18 κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ἅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.

I want To ask about… These verse, about Petros and Petra.

In aramaic Peshitta, this verse using Kepha and Kepha.
But this Greek Text using Petros and Petra.
To nitpick a bit, the P’shitta is actually in Classical Syriac, which however did descend from Old Aramaic.
My Question is:
1.Gospel of Matthew is written in Greek or Aramaic? (with proof is better, especially Church Fathers writings)
We have testimonies from various Church Fathers, starting from Papias and Irenaeus, that Matthew originally wrote in Hebrew letters and in the “Hebrew dialect”:
  • [A]fter our Lord rose from the dead, [the apostles] were invested with power from on high when the Holy Spirit came down [upon them], were filled from all [His gifts], and had perfect knowledge: they departed to the ends of the earth, preaching the glad tidings of the good things [sent] from God to us, and proclaiming the peace of heaven to men, who indeed do all equally and individually possess the Gospel of God. Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church.
-St. Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses, 3.1.1
  • Ματθαῖός τε γὰρ πρότερον Ἑβραίοις κηρύξας, ὡς ἤμελλεν καὶ ἐφ᾿ ἑτέρους ἰέναι, πατρίῳ γλώττῃ γραφῇ παραδοὺς τὸ κατ᾿ αὐτὸν εὐαγγέλιον, τὸ λεῖπον τῇ αὐτοῦ παρουσίᾳ τούτοις ἀφ᾿ ὧν ἐστέλλετο, διὰ τῆς γραφῆς ἀπεπλήρου·
Matthew had begun by preaching to Hebrews, and when he was about to go to others also, he committed to writing in his father tongue his gospel, so that for those with whom he was no longer present the gap left by his departure was filled by what he wrote.

-Eusebius, Church History 3.24.6
  • Περὶ δὲ τοῦ Ματθαίου ταῦτ᾿ εἴρηται· «Ματθαῖος μὲν οὖν Ἑβραΐδι διαλέκτῳ τὰ λόγια συνετάξατο, ἡρμήνευσεν δ᾿ αὐτὰ ὡς ἦν δυνατὸς ἕκαστος».
But concerning Matthew [Papias] writes as follows, “**Matthew collected the oracles in the Hebrew dialektos, and each interpreted them as best he could.”

-Papias, quoted by Eusebius, Church History 3.39.16
  • Ταῦτα μὲν οὖν ἐν τῷ προειρημένῳ τίθησι συγγράμματι· ἐν δὲ τῷ πρώτῳ τῶν εἰς τὸ κατὰ Ματθαῖον, τὸν ἐκκλησιαστικὸν φυλάττων κανόνα, μόνα τέσσαρα εἰδέναι εὐαγγέλια μαρτύρεται, ὧδέ πως γράφων· «ὡς ἐν παραδόσει μαθὼν περὶ τῶν τεσσάρων εὐαγγελίων, ἃ καὶ μόνα ἀναντίρρητά ἐστιν ἐν τῇ ὑπὸ τὸν οὐρανὸν ἐκκλησίᾳ τοῦ θεοῦ, ὅτι πρῶτον μὲν γέγραπται τὸ κατὰ τόν ποτε τελώνην, ὕστερον δὲ ἀπόστολον Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ Ματθαῖον, ἐκδεδωκότα αὐτὸ τοῖς ἀπὸ Ἰουδαϊσμοῦ πιστεύσασιν, γράμμασιν Ἑβραϊκοῖς συντεταγμένον»·
In his first book on According to Matthew, maintaining the Canon of the Church, [Origen] testifies that he knows only four Gospels, writing as follows, “Among the four Gospels, which are the only indisputable ones in the Church of God under heaven, I have learned by tradition that the first was written by Matthew, who was once a tax collector but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ, who published it for those who from Judaism came to believe, composed as it was in Hebrew letters.”

-Origen, quoted by Eusebius, Church History 6.25.3-4

It may be of interest that there are some today who already doubt whether Jesus spoke Aramaic at all. They instead propose that His first language, so to speak, was actually Hebrew all along. Plus, there is a debate as to Papias’ use of the word dialekto, whether he meant that the gospel was written in the Hebrew “language” or whether it was written in a Hebrew “style/structure” (in contrast to Mark’s chreia, “unordered”, gospel).
 
@Patrick

so using these proof and using Aramaic bible, it’s written you are kepha, on this kepha bla bla bla.

Checkmate.

Am i right?
 
So even though the writer of the Gospel knew Jesus is referring to Petros (a man) he chose to use the word Petra making Peter feminine? Why did he do that?
A Hebrew-Greek Lexicon had to be produced when the Old Testament was translated into Greek (the Septuagint). It stands to reason that this same lexicon was used by the Christians in New Testament times. Of course, this same lexicon necessarily predates any association between “Peter” and “Rock” i.e. gender was not an issue at the time.

We will probably never know who translated Matthew’s Gospel into Greek But it would seem likely that once a Hebrew version came into circulation, Greek speakers would have requested a copy in their own language. Matthew could have prepared this himself or overseen an assistant. This would not have taken a long period of time.
 
Some people claim that petros means little pebble, but not by the time that the NT was written…only in much earlier Greek.
As noted above, that would mean Jesus had to have said something like the following:

“I say to you that you are Rock, and – changing gears a bit – upon this other rock, your confession, I will build my church… And, getting back to you, Peter, I will give you the keys of the kingdom…” Not very persuasive.
 
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