Matt25, Norwich: Meet Mark Steyn

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Englishman Mark Steyn:

*“The obsession of the anti-Americans misses the point: it’s not about America. Surely even Fisk and the other “experts” aren’t so obtuse that they can’t see that the one undeniable fact of the election is that there are millions of Iraqis who want change. That doesn’t mean they want to turn Basra and Kirkuk into Cleveland and Buffalo, only that they want something other than the opposing cul-de-sacs of secular pan-Arabist dictatorship and death-cult Islamism, which dead-end alternatives are all the region’s had to offer for decades.” *

Of course, read the whole thing:

telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/02/08/do0802.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/02/08/ixopinion.html
 
Good effort…but…they’ll just find a way to spin it.
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jlw:
Englishman Mark Steyn:

*“The obsession of the anti-Americans misses the point: it’s not about America. Surely even Fisk and the other “experts” aren’t so obtuse that they can’t see that the one undeniable fact of the election is that there are millions of Iraqis who want change. That doesn’t mean they want to turn Basra and Kirkuk into Cleveland and Buffalo, only that they want something other than the opposing cul-de-sacs of secular pan-Arabist dictatorship and death-cult Islamism, which dead-end alternatives are all the region’s had to offer for decades.” *

Of course, read the whole thing:

telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/02/08/do0802.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/02/08/ixopinion.html
 
Another Steyn excerpt I loved:

“I prefer to speak of “liberty” or, as Bush says, “freedom”, or, as neither of us is quite bold enough to put it, capitalism - free market, property rights, law of contract, etc. That’s why Hong Kong is freer than Liberia, if less “democratic”. If I had six or seven centuries to work on things, I wouldn’t do it this way in Iraq or Afghanistan. But the “war on terror” is more accurately a race against time - to unwreck the Middle East before its toxins wreck South Asia, West Africa, and eventually Europe. The doom-mongers can mock Bush all they want. But they’re spending so much time doing so, they’ve left themselves woefully uninformed on some of the fascinating subtleties of Iraqi and Afghan politics that his Administration turns out to have been rather canny about.”
 
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jlw:
Englishman Mark Steyn:

*“The obsession of the anti-Americans misses the point: it’s not about America. Surely even Fisk and the other “experts” aren’t so obtuse that they can’t see that the one undeniable fact of the election is that there are millions of Iraqis who want change. That doesn’t mean they want to turn Basra and Kirkuk into Cleveland and Buffalo, only that they want something other than the opposing cul-de-sacs of secular pan-Arabist dictatorship and death-cult Islamism, which dead-end alternatives are all the region’s had to offer for decades.” *

Of course, read the whole thing:

telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/02/08/do0802.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/02/08/ixopinion.html

I thought he was Canadian - does anyone know ?​

The USA Army in Babylon made a right old mess of things - it’s no wonder they aren’t wanted.

The Americanisation of Iraq is all too probable. :banghead: ##
 
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jlw:
Englishman Mark Steyn:

*“The obsession of the anti-Americans misses the point: it’s not about America. Surely even Fisk and the other “experts” aren’t so obtuse that they can’t see that the one undeniable fact of the election is that there are millions of Iraqis who want change. That doesn’t mean they want to turn Basra and Kirkuk into Cleveland and Buffalo, only that they want something other than the opposing cul-de-sacs of secular pan-Arabist dictatorship and death-cult Islamism, which dead-end alternatives are all the region’s had to offer for decades.” *

Of course, read the whole thing:

telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/02/08/do0802.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/02/08/ixopinion.html
Excuse me, in the UK we are well aware of Mark Steyn. If you can find anybody much further to the right (without looking at the White House of course) he’ll have fallen of the edge of the world.

He’s one of the great American apologists, and boy, do you need one!!!
 
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Norwich:
and boy, do you need one!!!
No we don’t.
America is better than any European [Ur-a-Peein] country.
[1 more time than you can ever say + 1 + infinity and beyond! :D]

If anyone needs an apologist, it’s [fill in your random European County’s Name here] , that’s for sure.

Peace of the Lord be with you all !!!
 
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TheGarg:
No we don’t.
America is better than any European [Ur-a-Peein] country.
[1 more time than you can ever say + 1 + infinity and beyond! :D]

If anyone needs an apologist, it’s [fill in your random European County’s Name here] , that’s for sure.

Peace of the Lord be with you all !!!
Very enlightening. :yawn:
 
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TheGarg:
No we don’t.
America is better than any European [Ur-a-Peein] country.
[1 more time than you can ever say + 1 + infinity and beyond! :D]

If anyone needs an apologist, it’s [fill in your random European County’s Name here] , that’s for sure.

Peace of the Lord be with you all !!!
not against the war?

Isn’t John Paul II European?

Was he not against the war?
 
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jlw:
Another Steyn excerpt I loved:
*"I prefer to speak of “liberty” or, as Bush says, “freedom”, or, as neither of us is quite bold enough to put it, capitalism - free market, property rights, law of contract, etc. **That’s why Hong Kong is freer than Liberia, if less “democratic”. ***
Capitalism is superior to democracy is it? How surprised am I? Incidentally osjspm.org/cst/ca.htm The Encyclical Centesimus Annus The Hundredth Year John Paul II, 1991
Says this about Capitalism-
Many other people, while not completely marginalized, live in situations in which the struggle for a bare minimum is uppermost. These are situations in which the rules of the earliest period of capitalism still flourish in conditions of “ruthlessness” in no way inferior to the darkest moments of the first phase of industrialization. In other cases the land is still the central element in the economic process, but those who cultivate it are excluded from ownership and are reduced to a state of quasi-servitude.[71]** In these cases, it is still possible today, as in the days of Rerum Novarum, to speak of inhuman exploitation. In spite of the great changes which have taken place in the more advanced societies, the human inadequacies of capitalism and the resulting domination of things over people are far from disappearing.** In fact, for the poor, to the lack of material goods has been added a lack of knowledge and training which prevents them from escaping their state of humiliating subjection.

In this sense, it is right to speak of a struggle against an economic system, if the latter is understood as a method of upholding the absolute predominance of capital, the possession of the means of production and of the land, in contrast to the free and personal nature of human work.[73] In the struggle against such a system, what is being proposed as an alternative is not the socialist system, which in fact turns out to be state capitalism, but rather a society of free work of enterprise and of participation. Such a society is not directed against the market, but demands that the market be appropriately controlled by the forces of society and by the State, so as to guarantee that the basic needs of the whole of society are satisfied.

We have seen that it is unacceptable to say that the defeat of so-called “Real Socialism” leaves capitalism as the only model of economic organization. It is necessary to break down the barriers and monopolies which leave so many countries on the margins of development, and to provide all individuals and nations with the basic conditions which will enable them to share in development. This goal calls for programmed and responsible efforts on the part of the entire international community. Stronger nations must offer weaker ones opportunities for taking their place in international life, and the latter must learn how to use these opportunities by making the necessary efforts and sacrifices and by ensuring political and economic stability, the certainty of better prospects for the future, the improvement of workers’ skills, and the training of competent business leaders who are conscious of their responsibilities.[74]
 
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Matt25:
not against the war?

Isn’t John Paul II European?

Was he not against the war?
Good point Matt, now let me think…

Fill in the country…umm… POLAND…

Pope John Paul is Polish… therefore in Gargs world Pope John Paul is an apologist…

Hmmm… I think Gargs fell of his skateboard once to often.:tiphat:
 
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Matt25:
Capitalism is superior to democracy is it? /QUOTE]

No, no. Democracy is good, and a capitalist democracy is better than a socialist democracy. You are quite right to post about the ills of unfettered capitalism, but as Churchill once said, capitalism is the worst form of government, except for all the others.
 
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jlw:
Churchill once said, capitalism is the worst form of government, except for all the others.
No he didn’t, he did say
“democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.”

Capitalism and Democracy are not interchangeable concepts which is why Mark Steyn preferred undemocratic but capitalist Hong Kong to democratic Liberia
 
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Matt25:
No he didn’t, he did say
“democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.”

Capitalism and Democracy are not interchangeable concepts which is why Mark Steyn preferred undemocratic but capitalist Hong Kong to democratic Liberia
So would you if you visited both countries. Capitalism is merely the economic model people adopt in the absence of governmental intervention. It is the natural state of economics. I’m not saying that laissez-faire capitalism is 100% desirable, but often government-managed solutions suffer from the law of unintended consequences. The solutions are sometimes worse than the disease. I think that JPII seems to be arguing for 3rd world countries need to be given an equal chance at economic development. One of the biggest obstacles to are agricultural subsidies in the developed world, particularly by the EU.

Churchill was great for qoutes. My favorite was his exchange with Lady Astor:
Lady Astor: “Winston, if I were your wife I’d put poison in your coffee.”
Winston: “Nancy, if I were your husband I’d drink it.”

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TheGarg:
No we don’t.
America is better than any European [Ur-a-Peein] country.
[1 more time than you can ever say + 1 + infinity and beyond! :D]

If anyone needs an apologist, it’s [fill in your random European County’s Name here] , that’s for sure.

Peace of the Lord be with you all !!!
Positively scintillating comment, TheGarg. I wish I could argue that intelligently. :rolleyes:
 
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Matt25:
No he didn’t, he did say
“democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.”

Capitalism and Democracy are not interchangeable concepts which is why Mark Steyn preferred undemocratic but capitalist Hong Kong to democratic Liberia
Thanks for the correction. I thought I was off on that.

Of you had to choose between three governments and the economic system present, in which order would you choose:

Democratic/Socialist
Democratic/Capitalist
Totalitarian/Socialist
Aristocracy/socialist
Totalitarian/Communist

If there is another form of governemnt you want to add, do so. By the way if you Google Hong Kong form of government, you’ll find it ddescribed as a “limited democracy”.
 
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Norwich:
Good point Matt, now let me think…

Fill in the country…umm… POLAND…

Pope John Paul is Polish… therefore in Gargs world Pope John Paul is an apologist…

Hmmm… I think Gargs fell of his skateboard once to often.:tiphat:
Im sure the Pope wished that America had come in and saved the day before Hitler trounced poland in just 6 days.
To bad, all the Ur-a-peein countries weren’t there too help…Oh wait, they were there…watching…To busy being like Matt and Norwich…

Well, matt, since you have the inside scoop on what the Pope thinks, …does he wish that…That his “yellow” neighbors would have intervened before his countrymen were slain, unmercifully…

I think you had better actully “talk” to the Pope before you tell us what he thinks on this one…

Happy Ash Wendsday Everyone…Peace of the Lord be with you!
 
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TheGarg:
Im sure the Pope wished that America had come in and saved the day before Hitler trounced poland in just 6 days.
To bad, all the Ur-a-peein countries weren’t there too help…Oh wait, they were there…watching…To busy being like Matt and Norwich…
!
The invasion of Poland was the Casus Belli of World War II. It was that act that provoked the UK and France (but not the USA) to declare war. What more do you think the British should have done?

members.aol.com/forcountry/ww2/cha4.htm
Radio Address by Neville Chamberlain, Prime Minister, September 3, 1939.

I am speaking to you from the Cabinet Room at 10, Downing Street.This morning the British Ambassador in Berlin handed the German Government a final Note stating that unless we heard from them by 11 0’clock that they were prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland a state of war would exist between us. I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received, and that consequently this country is at war with Germany.You can imagine what a bitter blow it is to me that all my long struggle to win peace has failed. Yet I cannot believe that there is anything more or anything different that I could have done and that would have been more successful.Up to the very last it would have been quite possible to have arranged a peaceful and honourable settlement between Germany and Poland. But Hitler would not have it. He had evidently made up his mind to attack Poland whatever happened, and although he now says he put forward reasonable proposals which were rejected by the Poles, that is not a true statement.The proposals were never shown to the Poles, nor to us, and, though they were announced in a German broadcast on Thursday night, Hitler did not wait to hear comments on them, but ordered his troops to cross the Polish frontier. His action shows convincingly that there is no chance of expecting that this man will ever give up his practice of using force to gain his will. He can only be stopped by force.We and France are to-day, in fulfillment of our obligations, going to the aid of Poland, who is so bravely resisting this wicked and unprovoked attack upon her people. We have a clear conscience. We have done all that any country could do to establish peace, but a situation in which no word given by Germany’s ruler could be trusted and no people or country could feel themselves safe had become intolerable. And now that we have resolved to finish it, I know that you will all play your part with calmness and courage.As such a moment as this the assurances of support that we have received from the Empire are a source of profound encouragement to us…Now may God bless you all and may He defend the right. For it is evil things that we shall be fighting against, brute force, bad faith, injustice, oppression and persecution. And against them I am certain that the right will prevail.
 
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1999/08/99/world_war_ii/430187.stm

At the outbreak of the war in Europe President Roosevelt urged the American public to be neutral,

You must master at the outset a simple but unalterable fact… When peace has been broken anywhere the peace of all countries everywhere is in danger. It is easy for you and for me to shrug our shoulders and say that conflicts taking place thousands of miles from the continent of the US and indeed thousands of miles from the whole American hemisphere do not seriously affect the Americas and that all the United States had to do is ignore them and go about its own business.

Passionately though we may desire detachment we are forced to realise that every word that come through the air, every ship that sails the sea, every battle that is fought, does affect the American future.

Let no man or woman thoughtlessly or falsely talk of America sending its armies to European fields. At this moment there is being prepared a proclamation of American neutrality…

This nation will remain a neutral nation. But I cannot ask that every American remain neutral in thought as well.

Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts. Even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience. I have said not once, but many times that I have seen war and that I hate war.

I say that again and again. I hope the US will keep out of this war. I believe that it will and I give you assurance and reassurance that every effort of your government will be directed toward that end.

As long as it remains within my power to prevent there will be no blackout of peace in the United States.
 
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Matt25:
The invasion of Poland was the Casus Belli of World War II. It was that act that provoked the UK and France (but not the USA) to declare war. What more do you think the British should have done?
BLAH BLAH, more excuses…
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Matt25:
members.aol.com/forcountry/ww2/cha4.htm
Radio Address by Neville Chamberlain, Prime Minister, September 3, 1939.

**I am speaking to you from the Cabinet Room at 10, Downing Street.This morning the British Ambassador in Berlin “**handed the German Government a final Note” stating that unless
Britain could have done alot more than hand them a piece of paper…people died while you all stood around being diplomatic…“are you sure…im not telling you again…this is your last chance…this is the last time im telling you…” …

You should have been standing at the gates of poland on the 2nd day of the 6 day slaughter…kickin some German patoot.

Europe failed its brethern…What the US did or didn’t do is irrelavent…
 
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