F
Faith1960
Guest
Randy Carson, I’d like your opinion on this.
- Status
A
adrift
Guest
But that is not what Mathew says. He doesn’t say that they had no sexual relations until after Jesus was born. Mathew was only concerned with making it clear that this was a virgin birth. Anything more and you are adding to the scripture.
No where in scripture does it say that Mary and Joseph had a normal sexual relation. Mary even asked how could she have a child since she did not have relations with a man. She asked this of the angel when she was a married woman.
Big SIGH. You do realize that James, Joseph Simon and Judas are state to have a father other than Joseph as well as a mother other than Mary. They were cousins St. James the Less, the author of the first Catholic Epistle, was the son of Alphaeus of Cleophas. His mother Mary was either a sister or a close relative of the Blessed Virgin, and for that reason, according to Jewish custom, he was sometimes called the brother of the Lord
This is a[ link ](St. James the Less, the author of the first Catholic Epistle, was the son of Alphaeus of Cleophas. His mother Mary was either a sister or a close relative of the Blessed Virgin, and for that reason, according to Jewish custom, he was sometimes called the brother of the Lord)to another discussion that answers this sad assertion.
Actually it is very weak.
Very weak argument that is made by those who are unfamiliar with the culture.
3
This actually is proof that they were not children of Mary
In that culture, younger sibling did not give advice to older siblings. This shows that the “brothers” were older than Jesus. Since Jesus was Mary’s only child, they could not possibly be Mary’s children.
Also take in consideration that Jesus from the cross gave Mary’s care into John’s hands something that would not have been necessary if she had other sons.
You can’t read scripture without context which includes the context of culture.
E
Eagle1937
Guest
This may help…
“The Gospel of Mark (6:3) and the Gospel of Matthew (13:55–56) are cited as evidence that James, Joseph (Joses), Judas, and Simon were the sons of Mary and of Joseph”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Jesus
This is an invention…A hope.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_virginity_of_Mary
“The Gospel of Mark (6:3) and the Gospel of Matthew (13:55–56) are cited as evidence that James, Joseph (Joses), Judas, and Simon were the sons of Mary and of Joseph”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Jesus
This is an invention…A hope.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_virginity_of_Mary
A
adrift
Guest
You are on a Catholic web site. Don’t be disrespectful. It is not an invention but the Holy Truth.
You obviously did not read what I wrote but I will repeat. It was pointed out to you that James mother is indeed named Mary but it is not Mary the mother of Jesus
So we now know that the brothers mentioned James and Joses are not the sons of Mary the mother of Jesus. Act 1:13 says that Jude is the brother of James who we know is not the son of Mary the mother of Jesus. Simon may be the apostle identified as Simon the Zealot. If this is the case we know that he isn’t a son of Mary as he was from Cana. Even if he is not it is sufficient that three that are names are proven not to be Mary’s sons so it would follow that Simon wasn’t either.
It has already been shown that James father is Alphaeus. Mathew 10:3
As for the word until, get a dictionary. The word until means a period of time and nothing else. Unless of course you think Michal had a child after she died.
E
Eagle1937
Guest
"Actually it is very weak.”
Very strong regarding Jesus. He had brothers and Sisters. And Mary his mother. By combining Mary, the mother, with brothers and sisters implies family relationships.
Mark 3:31-35.
31
His mother and his brothers arrived. Standing outside they sent word to him and called him.
32
A crowd seated around him told him, “Your mother and your brothers (and your sisters) are outside asking for you.”
33
But he said to them in reply, “Who are my mother and (my) brothers?”
34
And looking around at those seated in the circle he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
35
(For) whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.”
The only reason for this perpetual virginity invention is to elevate Mary to such a high degree…”No! She is pure to the max! She will never debase herself with sex!” Circa 200AD thinking…
That is the whole assumption.
I am being real world here. Mary was a woman who gave a virgin birth to Jesus…But, afterwards she “made love” to Joseph. Brothers and sisters.
Everything else besides this is “Religion”…
All right here…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11515690&postcount=12
Very strong regarding Jesus. He had brothers and Sisters. And Mary his mother. By combining Mary, the mother, with brothers and sisters implies family relationships.
Mark 3:31-35.
31
His mother and his brothers arrived. Standing outside they sent word to him and called him.
32
A crowd seated around him told him, “Your mother and your brothers (and your sisters) are outside asking for you.”
33
But he said to them in reply, “Who are my mother and (my) brothers?”
34
And looking around at those seated in the circle he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
35
(For) whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.”
The only reason for this perpetual virginity invention is to elevate Mary to such a high degree…”No! She is pure to the max! She will never debase herself with sex!” Circa 200AD thinking…
That is the whole assumption.
I am being real world here. Mary was a woman who gave a virgin birth to Jesus…But, afterwards she “made love” to Joseph. Brothers and sisters.
Everything else besides this is “Religion”…
All right here…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11515690&postcount=12
A
adrift
Guest
Total nonsense. There is not one shred of truth in what you state. If you don’t start being respectful you will find yourself banned. No where can you provide evidence that to have sex was to be debased that is modernist thinking. Of course ignore all the evidence that I provided that these could not possibly be Mary’s children. Lot was called the brother of Abraham but they weren’t brothers they were Uncle and Nephew but of course don’t let facts get in the way of your bigotry.
E
Eagle1937
Guest
Perpetual virgin or not? We will never know then.
But, I am being realistic. While Jesus Christ was of a Heavenly origin, Mary and Joseph were quite human.
People have a choice then. Perpetual Virgin. Or read the New Testament as it stands.
I am taking the position of a normal marriage between Mary and Joseph. That is all.
And it is not about disrespect. It is an argument that goes back at least to 200AD!
But, I am being realistic. While Jesus Christ was of a Heavenly origin, Mary and Joseph were quite human.
People have a choice then. Perpetual Virgin. Or read the New Testament as it stands.
I am taking the position of a normal marriage between Mary and Joseph. That is all.
And it is not about disrespect. It is an argument that goes back at least to 200AD!
A
adrift
Guest
Of course we know because Jesus didn’t leave us orphans He gave us His Church.
There was no argument in 200 AD.
The disrespect is calling it an invention.
The scripture shows that this is not an normal marriage. Married women don’t ask how they can have a baby since they don’t have sex. You are not reading the New Testament I have pointed out that the named brothers have other parents. You can’t counter it so you ignore it and continue to spew your nonsense. A normal marriage. Nothing about it was normal. How would a man dare to approach where God had been. The guard was killed for trying to stop the fall of the Ark how much more important was where God physically was.
E
Eagle1937
Guest
“Perpetual Virginity”. Talk about assumptions. This is worse than my literal interpretation of the New Testament…
“By the 3rd century the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary was well established and defended by Hippolytus, Eusebius and Epiphanius, important early Christian theologians. Much of the church therefore did not accept that Mary could have had any children apart from Jesus.[21] Eusebius and Epiphanius held that these men were Joseph’s sons from (an unrecorded) former marriage…”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Jesus
And I am going strictly by the New Testament and the Gospels. Not jump around from Genesis to Revelation on “Brothers” and “Sisters” definitions.
My original argument and post stands…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11515690&postcount=12
“By the 3rd century the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary was well established and defended by Hippolytus, Eusebius and Epiphanius, important early Christian theologians. Much of the church therefore did not accept that Mary could have had any children apart from Jesus.[21] Eusebius and Epiphanius held that these men were Joseph’s sons from (an unrecorded) former marriage…”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Jesus
And I am going strictly by the New Testament and the Gospels. Not jump around from Genesis to Revelation on “Brothers” and “Sisters” definitions.
My original argument and post stands…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11515690&postcount=12
A
adrift
Guest
Your argument is not based on anything but your bigotry and your own biased assumptions. Your statement that you aren’t going to jump around only substantiates that you don’t know what you are talking about.
E
Eagle1937
Guest
Even I have to study my own posts. They same way I study the New Testament.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11515690&postcount=12
It takes time to finally to take all 4 books, Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John. Cross reference them and blend them together. In which I am still doing!
Online is ok. But a real physical book is better.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_INDEX.HTM
The most important thing to keep in mind is Jesus Christ and his mission. Not get to involved in Brothers and Sisters - Spiritual brothers and sisters? Or sons and daughters by Mary and Joseph.
But, because of the miraculous event of a virgin birth, I am sure Mary may have more important things (Jesus Christ) on her mind…Than having more children to take care of. So, Jesus Christ was her only concerned. Any Brothers and Sisters were just apart of an extended family…Spiritual brothers and sisters. For the same reason I have a God Father.
Hey, I just step forward into a greater reality…Mary did have only one son - Jesus Christ. And Joseph only helped her along the way - given the sacred and Heaven above mission that was given to Mary and Joseph.
Took me long enough!
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11515690&postcount=12
It takes time to finally to take all 4 books, Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John. Cross reference them and blend them together. In which I am still doing!
Online is ok. But a real physical book is better.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_INDEX.HTM
The most important thing to keep in mind is Jesus Christ and his mission. Not get to involved in Brothers and Sisters - Spiritual brothers and sisters? Or sons and daughters by Mary and Joseph.
But, because of the miraculous event of a virgin birth, I am sure Mary may have more important things (Jesus Christ) on her mind…Than having more children to take care of. So, Jesus Christ was her only concerned. Any Brothers and Sisters were just apart of an extended family…Spiritual brothers and sisters. For the same reason I have a God Father.
Hey, I just step forward into a greater reality…Mary did have only one son - Jesus Christ. And Joseph only helped her along the way - given the sacred and Heaven above mission that was given to Mary and Joseph.
Took me long enough!
F
Faith1960
Guest
Adrift and Randy Carson,
To summarize – in Matthew 1:25, when it says “he had no relations with her until she bore a son and he named him Jesus” the word “until” in Greek does not translate to them having marital relations after Jesus was born but could mean either they didn’t or they did and we hold the position that Mary was ever virgin based on NT context and Church Tradition… Or am I still sounding confused?
To summarize – in Matthew 1:25, when it says “he had no relations with her until she bore a son and he named him Jesus” the word “until” in Greek does not translate to them having marital relations after Jesus was born but could mean either they didn’t or they did and we hold the position that Mary was ever virgin based on NT context and Church Tradition… Or am I still sounding confused?
E
Eagle1937
Guest
If Mary was a virgin before, had a virgin birth - a given. And did not have any more children afterwards - She was still a Virgin. And continued to be a virgin all her life…
Looks like I will need to revise this post…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11515690&postcount=12
25
He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus
Mary had relations with Joseph afterwards. Was this a sexual relation? I do not think so. This relations could be non sexual in nature. But, still based on Love.
Looks like I will need to revise this post…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11515690&postcount=12
25
He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus
Mary had relations with Joseph afterwards. Was this a sexual relation? I do not think so. This relations could be non sexual in nature. But, still based on Love.
A
adrift
Guest
You have summarized it correctly. The until is there to emphasize that Jesus did not have an earthy father. His birth was miraculous. It does not indicate anything else.
E
Eagle1937
Guest
“The until is there to emphasize that Jesus did not have an earthy father. His birth was miraculous. It does not indicate anything else”
Agreed Always knew this of course.
Agreed
Always knew this of course.
P
prodromos
Guest
Throughout the Old Testament we find many instances of both people and objects being set apart for a holy purpose. Whatever is set apart, for example for use in the temple, is consecrated and not to ever be used for common purposes again. Likewise, people who were set apart for holy purposes lived chaste lives. Moses, although married, had no children, Samuel never married.
Then we come to the Ark of the Covenant, where God Himself dwelt among His people Israel. The Ark, through being filled with God’s presence was so holy that no one was ever to touch it. The one time someone did, he was instantly struck dead.
Now consider Joseph and Mary. Joseph is described as a righteous man and it was revealed to him in a dream that Mary was carrying God’s Son in her womb. She, like the Ark, literally contained God’s presence.
So, Mary is set apart, not just for a holy purpose, but rather THE holy purpose. She like many before her would remain chaste for the rest of Her life. Indeed this is made clear by her response to the Archangel Gabriel, “how can this be since I know not a man”. If she were not planning on living a chaste life, then when the angel told her she would conceive a son she would immediately assume that it would be through intercourse with her husband. No such thought enters her mind however, showing that her marriage to Joseph was not a normal marriage but one where she intended to live out her life as a virgin. Such marriages are described in Numbers 30.
Now consider Joseph. If it had ever entered his head that Mary would be the mother of his children, and I am not suggesting that it did, that thought would have vanished the moment he understood who she carried in her womb.
So even if scripture may appear ambiguous regarding the brothers and sisters of Christ, the deep respect of righteous Jews towards who and what was set apart for God’s holy purpose, leaves no doubt whatsoever.
On another note, it is Orthodox tradition that the brothers and sisters of Christ are Josephs children prior to him becoming a widower. Salome, the mother of James and John, is one of those children, and it becomes clear that only an older sister would be so bold as to ask of Jesus that her sons, James and John, sit on his left and right side in His kingdom. It also helps us to understand the particular closeness of Jesus relationship with these two brothers
Then we come to the Ark of the Covenant, where God Himself dwelt among His people Israel. The Ark, through being filled with God’s presence was so holy that no one was ever to touch it. The one time someone did, he was instantly struck dead.
Now consider Joseph and Mary. Joseph is described as a righteous man and it was revealed to him in a dream that Mary was carrying God’s Son in her womb. She, like the Ark, literally contained God’s presence.
So, Mary is set apart, not just for a holy purpose, but rather THE holy purpose. She like many before her would remain chaste for the rest of Her life. Indeed this is made clear by her response to the Archangel Gabriel, “how can this be since I know not a man”. If she were not planning on living a chaste life, then when the angel told her she would conceive a son she would immediately assume that it would be through intercourse with her husband. No such thought enters her mind however, showing that her marriage to Joseph was not a normal marriage but one where she intended to live out her life as a virgin. Such marriages are described in Numbers 30.
Now consider Joseph. If it had ever entered his head that Mary would be the mother of his children, and I am not suggesting that it did, that thought would have vanished the moment he understood who she carried in her womb.
So even if scripture may appear ambiguous regarding the brothers and sisters of Christ, the deep respect of righteous Jews towards who and what was set apart for God’s holy purpose, leaves no doubt whatsoever.
On another note, it is Orthodox tradition that the brothers and sisters of Christ are Josephs children prior to him becoming a widower. Salome, the mother of James and John, is one of those children, and it becomes clear that only an older sister would be so bold as to ask of Jesus that her sons, James and John, sit on his left and right side in His kingdom. It also helps us to understand the particular closeness of Jesus relationship with these two brothers
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Eagle 1937.
Ignoring the sola Scriptura method you are (mis)using, not one of those passages say what you are trying to get them to say.
As a matter of fact some of the same passages you cited suggest a refutation of your own interpretation.
Do you know the Hebrew word (“ach” Hebrew or “ah” Aramaic = “Brother”) for “brother” has a wide Semitic meaning? You might say: “Well these are Greek translations.” We can deal with that too (if that is an issue for you) but the “Greek thing” isn’t going to help your erroneous conclusion either.
The word “brother” in an ancient Hebrew Semitic culture has a very broad meaning.
Meaning of Brother (in a Hebrew sense)
Keeping in mind the wide Semitic meaning for the Hebrew word “ach” . . .
. . . . the questions you need to ask is:
**Where in the Bible does it say, “Mary had other children aside from Jesus?”
Where in the Bible does it say, “Mary is the mother of the “brothers” of Jesus?”**
Please look again at Matthew 13:55a (I’ll just focus on the heart of the issue):
MATTHEW 13:55a 55 Is he not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?
Now let’s look again at Matthew 13:55a and notice what is NOT SAID (but some of the deniers of the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary WISHED it said):
NOT MATTHEW 13:55a (Phantom Verse) 55 Is he not ONE OF the carpenter’s SONS? Is not **THEIR **mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?
You also said:
NOT MARK 6:3 (Phantom Verse) Is he not the carpenter, ONE OF THE SONS of Mary, and the brother of James and Joseph and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him
You cited Matthew 12:50 (Mathew 12:46-50) in post 12.
You certainly don’t think whoever does the will “of my heavenly father” are all biological kids of the Blessed Virgin Mary do you
??
Every one of the verses you cited shows absolutely nothing at all about contradicting the doctrine of the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary. There is NO VERSE in the Bible that does so. Not one.
If you want Eagle 1937, we can look at all the verses you cited in more detail.
But back to the original posters verse concerning this same issue (parenthetical additions mine):
MATTHEW 1:25 25 but (St. Joseph) knew her (the Blessed Virgin Mary) not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus.
I have a question for you Eagle 1937.
WHY do you think St. Joseph “knew Mary not” BEFORE the Virgin Mary bore Jesus?
If you answer that correctly, you will be almost there as far as WHY “St. Joseph knew Mary not” **AFTER **Jesus was born too.
Remember:
**Where in the Bible does it say, “Mary had other children aside from Jesus?”
Where in the Bible does it say, “Mary is the mother of the “brothers” of Jesus?”**
Ignoring the sola Scriptura method you are (mis)using, not one of those passages say what you are trying to get them to say.
As a matter of fact some of the same passages you cited suggest a refutation of your own interpretation.
Do you know the Hebrew word (“ach” Hebrew or “ah” Aramaic = “Brother”) for “brother” has a wide Semitic meaning? You might say: “Well these are Greek translations.” We can deal with that too (if that is an issue for you) but the “Greek thing” isn’t going to help your erroneous conclusion either.
The word “brother” in an ancient Hebrew Semitic culture has a very broad meaning.
Meaning of Brother (in a Hebrew sense)
- Brother from the same womb
- Half-brother
- Relative
- Cousin
- Companions
- Fellow Countrymen
- Nephew/Uncle
- Of the same religious affiliation
Keeping in mind the wide Semitic meaning for the Hebrew word “ach” . . .
. . . . the questions you need to ask is:
**Where in the Bible does it say, “Mary had other children aside from Jesus?”
Where in the Bible does it say, “Mary is the mother of the “brothers” of Jesus?”**
Please look again at Matthew 13:55a (I’ll just focus on the heart of the issue):
MATTHEW 13:55a 55 Is he not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?
Now let’s look again at Matthew 13:55a and notice what is NOT SAID (but some of the deniers of the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary WISHED it said):
NOT MATTHEW 13:55a (Phantom Verse) 55 Is he not ONE OF the carpenter’s SONS? Is not **THEIR **mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?
You also said:
I disagree Eagle 1937. I read it and thought: “Real weak”.
NOT MARK 6:3 (Phantom Verse) Is he not the carpenter, ONE OF THE SONS of Mary, and the brother of James and Joseph and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him
You cited Matthew 12:50 (Mathew 12:46-50) in post 12.
Doesn’t this at least suggest to you that there is a wider usage of the term “brother”?
You certainly don’t think whoever does the will “of my heavenly father” are all biological kids of the Blessed Virgin Mary do you
??Every one of the verses you cited shows absolutely nothing at all about contradicting the doctrine of the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary. There is NO VERSE in the Bible that does so. Not one.
If you want Eagle 1937, we can look at all the verses you cited in more detail.
But back to the original posters verse concerning this same issue (parenthetical additions mine):
MATTHEW 1:25 25 but (St. Joseph) knew her (the Blessed Virgin Mary) not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus.
I have a question for you Eagle 1937.
WHY do you think St. Joseph “knew Mary not” BEFORE the Virgin Mary bore Jesus?
If you answer that correctly, you will be almost there as far as WHY “St. Joseph knew Mary not” **AFTER **Jesus was born too.
Remember:
**Where in the Bible does it say, “Mary had other children aside from Jesus?”
Where in the Bible does it say, “Mary is the mother of the “brothers” of Jesus?”**
M
Mr_Clean
Guest
As a convert I find this discussion very interesting. The idea of Mary’s perpetual virginity is new to me so I want to get this straight (I can be sure my mother will bring this up and I want to be prepared for the argument). The verse in the op and the discussion so far over the meaning of “until” as to changing or not changing what St Joseph did is not working for me. That sentence alone in english seems to be (Im trying to ask this so it makes sense)if I were to make a statement like that I would not say it that way and dont think most would. Can someone break this verse down in greek without trying to make a proper english sentence out of it. So far Im lost in the translation.
As a side note Id like to caution others who prefer to stand on their own understanding of things. Not that an individual cannot bring to light errors by the Church. From personal experience the concept in the circle of Christianity has given birth to “my own personal Jesus” many times over. There has to be an Authority and there are scriptures that back that Authority up. These days I prefer to keep my knowledge of all things concerning our Lord as close to the original source as possible.
Peace be with you.
As a side note Id like to caution others who prefer to stand on their own understanding of things. Not that an individual cannot bring to light errors by the Church. From personal experience the concept in the circle of Christianity has given birth to “my own personal Jesus” many times over. There has to be an Authority and there are scriptures that back that Authority up. These days I prefer to keep my knowledge of all things concerning our Lord as close to the original source as possible.
Peace be with you.
E
Eagle1937
Guest
I though this was good.
catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-case-for-mary%E2%80%99s-perpetual-virginity
Mary’s conception was miraculous. A Virgin Birth. Jesus Christ our savior, healer and teacher.
Joseph was visited by Angels. Chosen also.
In no way Mary and Joseph will bear more children an addition to Jesus Christ. I now understand that Jesus Christ is paramount and a primary focus by Mary and Joseph.
That word “until” is now correctly understood by me. Sometimes, I would think there are better English words to clarify a true meaning of interpreted text. Especially an ancient text.
Mary was a perpetual virgin. Case closed.
My post revised…
Reading the Book of Mathew.
Mathew 1:23-25.
23
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel,” which means “God is with us.”
24
When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took his wife into his home.
25
He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus
“he had no relations with her” - This means while Mary was carrying Jesus, it was only her, Jesus, and God above.
“Until she bore a son” - Mary and Joseph are now in a relation. Joseph was Mary and Jesus protector and earthly provider.
Brothers and Sisters. Spiritual brothers and sisters. For Jesus Christ was Mary’s only son. A miraculous virgin birth.
Mathew 12:46-50
46
While he was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and his brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with him.
47
(Someone told him, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you.”)
48
But he said in reply to the one who told him, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?”
49
And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
50
For whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
Mathew…13:54-56.
54
He came to his native place and taught the people in their synagogue. They were astonished and said, “Where did this man get such wisdom and mighty deeds?
55
Is he not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?
56
Are not his sisters all with us? Where did this man get all this?”
Mark 3:31-35.
31
His mother and his brothers arrived. Standing outside they sent word to him and called him.
32
A crowd seated around him told him, “Your mother and your brothers (and your sisters) are outside asking for you.”
33
But he said to them in reply, “Who are my mother and (my) brothers?”
34
And looking around at those seated in the circle he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
35
(For) whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.”
Mark 6:3.
3
Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joseph and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him
John 2:11-12.
11
Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him.
12
After this, he and his mother, (his) brothers, and his disciples went down to Capernaum and stayed there only a few days.
John 7:1-10.
1
After this, Jesus moved about within Galilee; but he did not wish to travel in Judea, because the Jews were trying to kill him.
2
But the Jewish feast of Tabernacles was near.
3
So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples also may see the works you are doing.
4
No one works in secret if he wants to be known publicly. If you do these things, manifest yourself to the world.”
5
For his brothers did not believe in him.
6
So Jesus said to them, “My time is not yet here, but the time is always right for you.
7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me, because I testify to it that its works are evil.
8
You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, because my time has not yet been fulfilled.”
9
After he had said this, he stayed on in Galilee.
10
But when his brothers had gone up to the feast, he himself also went up, not openly but (as it were) in secret.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_INDEX.HTM
catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-case-for-mary%E2%80%99s-perpetual-virginity
Mary’s conception was miraculous. A Virgin Birth. Jesus Christ our savior, healer and teacher.
Joseph was visited by Angels. Chosen also.
In no way Mary and Joseph will bear more children an addition to Jesus Christ. I now understand that Jesus Christ is paramount and a primary focus by Mary and Joseph.
That word “until” is now correctly understood by me. Sometimes, I would think there are better English words to clarify a true meaning of interpreted text. Especially an ancient text.
Mary was a perpetual virgin. Case closed.
My post revised…
Reading the Book of Mathew.
Mathew 1:23-25.
23
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel,” which means “God is with us.”
24
When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took his wife into his home.
25
He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus
“he had no relations with her” - This means while Mary was carrying Jesus, it was only her, Jesus, and God above.
“Until she bore a son” - Mary and Joseph are now in a relation. Joseph was Mary and Jesus protector and earthly provider.
Brothers and Sisters. Spiritual brothers and sisters. For Jesus Christ was Mary’s only son. A miraculous virgin birth.
Mathew 12:46-50
46
While he was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and his brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with him.
47
(Someone told him, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you.”)
48
But he said in reply to the one who told him, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?”
49
And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
50
For whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
Mathew…13:54-56.
54
He came to his native place and taught the people in their synagogue. They were astonished and said, “Where did this man get such wisdom and mighty deeds?
55
Is he not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?
56
Are not his sisters all with us? Where did this man get all this?”
Mark 3:31-35.
31
His mother and his brothers arrived. Standing outside they sent word to him and called him.
32
A crowd seated around him told him, “Your mother and your brothers (and your sisters) are outside asking for you.”
33
But he said to them in reply, “Who are my mother and (my) brothers?”
34
And looking around at those seated in the circle he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
35
(For) whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.”
Mark 6:3.
3
Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joseph and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him
John 2:11-12.
11
Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him.
12
After this, he and his mother, (his) brothers, and his disciples went down to Capernaum and stayed there only a few days.
John 7:1-10.
1
After this, Jesus moved about within Galilee; but he did not wish to travel in Judea, because the Jews were trying to kill him.
2
But the Jewish feast of Tabernacles was near.
3
So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples also may see the works you are doing.
4
No one works in secret if he wants to be known publicly. If you do these things, manifest yourself to the world.”
5
For his brothers did not believe in him.
6
So Jesus said to them, “My time is not yet here, but the time is always right for you.
7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me, because I testify to it that its works are evil.
8
You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, because my time has not yet been fulfilled.”
9
After he had said this, he stayed on in Galilee.
10
But when his brothers had gone up to the feast, he himself also went up, not openly but (as it were) in secret.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_INDEX.HTM
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Eagle1937
Guest
“These days I prefer to keep my knowledge of all things concerning our Lord as close to the original source as possible”
I agree. While reading the Book of John for example, I do not need a whole theological course or governing bodies to help me read and understand Jesus Christ’s sayings…
While he did spoke in Parables, there are times even Jesus clarified his own Parables. For the people who did not get it.
I keep in mind that Mary, Joseph, and even Jesus had practical daily lives. The slept, worked, ate, laughed.
And in my eagerness to relate to Jesus Christ as the “Man”, and Mary and Joseph as earthly parents, I misunderstood Mathew 1:23-25.
And the Boy Jesus played, wonder, explored…And learned. But, Jesus given the divine nature of him, was already filled with advanced knowledge. I do accept this.
The Gospels portray a Jesus Christ as a healer, messenger. And does not cover his entire life. Or of Mary and Joseph.
I agree. While reading the Book of John for example, I do not need a whole theological course or governing bodies to help me read and understand Jesus Christ’s sayings…
While he did spoke in Parables, there are times even Jesus clarified his own Parables. For the people who did not get it.
I keep in mind that Mary, Joseph, and even Jesus had practical daily lives. The slept, worked, ate, laughed.
And in my eagerness to relate to Jesus Christ as the “Man”, and Mary and Joseph as earthly parents, I misunderstood Mathew 1:23-25.
And the Boy Jesus played, wonder, explored…And learned. But, Jesus given the divine nature of him, was already filled with advanced knowledge. I do accept this.
The Gospels portray a Jesus Christ as a healer, messenger. And does not cover his entire life. Or of Mary and Joseph.
- Status