Matthew 10...

[chessmane4e5]

I don’t believe in the devil or original sin to be honest. I think that the devil and original sin are just a result of free will. If the devil existed, why wouldn’t God just destroy him? What is the point? And if God is letting the devil tempt us, then the devil might as well just be a different side of God. I don’t understand how you can believe that God is all powerful and good, BUT lets an evil power tempt us. How is that all powerful and good? I don’t get it.

EDIT: I don’t consider this calling Jesus a liar. I think that the devil is within all of us. I think the devil is just a metaphor for us wanting to do bad things because we enjoy them. I mean what does the “devil” tempt us with? The devil tempts us with things like stealing and sex on false pretenses…we steal because we want things and don’t want to pay for them and we want to have sex because it feels good. The devil doesn’t tempt us to do things that aren’t for our enjoyment…because the devil is just the temptations of humans.

It seems (and correct me if I am wrong) that if something doesn’t make sense to you, then you either do not believe it or find an alternative belief. Is this a fair assessment? You reason that, God is Good, Hell is Bad, therefore God would send us to Hell.
Or God is all powerful, Satan is evil, therefore God would destroy him if he existed, so Satan does not exist.

The flaw I see in this, is that by what right are we to assume that we understand the logic of God? For example, if their was no original sin, then why did God create us at all? Why would God create us to live in a fallen world? That doesn’t seem like a thing a Good God would do. Because it is not. God created the most perfect place for Adam to live. He then created the most perfect mate for Adam. Adam and Eve were perfect, each was different but still created in Gods image. They had free will, but without Sin. They had the ability to sin and did when they disobeyed God. Before they committed that sin their was no envy, no lust, no greed. Adam loved Eve and Eve loved Adam in the most pure way possible, the way that God loved them and they loved Him.

Logical thinking is one of our greatest gifts, but also a curse as well. For example, Humans need air to breath. Outer space has no air. Therefore humans can not live in outer space. But we know this is not true.

As for the Devil being a real thing or just something that is inside us, what about Angels? Do you believe that God also created Angels?

I am not sure if you have kids or not, but I find parent analogies work really well

I don’t understand how you can believe that God is all powerful and good, BUT lets an evil power tempt us.

I love my kids and try to protect them. But I do let them attend school. I know that they are going to experience fun things but also bad things at school. Because I know bad things may happen and I still let them attend school, does this make me bad? Should I homeschool my kids to protect them for other kids that may tease them or teach them bad things?

God created all the Angels and gave them a choice of either obeying his command or not. Lucifer and 1/3 of all the angels chose the latter and where thrown out of Heaven. Why did God just not destroy them? I don’t know, ask Him. It appears to me that He does not want to destroy what He has created. We are also his creation and I do not see what right I have to question Him.

 

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It seems (and correct me if I am wrong) that if something doesn’t make sense to you, then you either do not believe it or find an alternative belief. Is this a fair assessment? You reason that, God is Good, Hell is Bad, therefore God would send us to Hell.
Or God is all powerful, Satan is evil, therefore God would destroy him if he existed, so Satan does not exist.

Yes this is pretty much my reasoning.

The flaw I see in this, is that by what right are we to assume that we understand the logic of God? For example, if their was no original sin, then why did God create us at all? Why would God create us to live in a fallen world? That doesn’t seem like a thing a Good God would do. Because it is not. God created the most perfect place for Adam to live. He then created the most perfect mate for Adam. Adam and Eve were perfect, each was different but still created in Gods image. They had free will, but without Sin. They had the ability to sin and did when they disobeyed God. Before they committed that sin their was no envy, no lust, no greed. Adam loved Eve and Eve loved Adam in the most pure way possible, the way that God loved them and they loved Him.

Well I don’t believe in original sin. But I don’t see how lack of original sin would make you question why God created us. I don’t think we live in a fallen world, I don’t think Adam and Eve existed, and I believe any notion of sin is a product of free will. God gave us free will, and as a product of this free will, we ALL sin. To rationalize this, we had to come up with a reason for this theologically. That is where original sin comes from IMO.

As for the Devil being a real thing or just something that is inside us, what about Angels? Do you believe that God also created Angels?

No.

I am not sure if you have kids or not, but I find parent analogies work really well

I love my kids and try to protect them. But I do let them attend school. I know that they are going to experience fun things but also bad things at school. Because I know bad things may happen and I still let them attend school, does this make me bad? Should I homeschool my kids to protect them for other kids that may tease them or teach them bad things?

God created all the Angels and gave them a choice of either obeying his command or not. Lucifer and 1/3 of all the angels chose the latter and where thrown out of Heaven. Why did God just not destroy them? I don’t know, ask Him. It appears to me that He does not want to destroy what He has created. We are also his creation and I do not see what right I have to question Him.

I have a one year old son. You shouldn’t homeschool your kids because you are scared of bad things happening to them in my opinion. But that is besides the point.

OK, so lets say that satan does exist, and 1/3 of angels were thrown out of heaven with him. Why does God send people to him? Why does God send people to hell unless God and satan had some sort of deal worked out or something. If hell exists, God created it. Satan doesn’t have the power to create things. It just doesn’t make any sense.

 

[chessmane4e5]

OK, so lets say that satan does exist, and 1/3 of angels were thrown out of heaven with him. Why does God send people to him? Why does God send people to hell unless God and satan had some sort of deal worked out or something. If hell exists, God created it. Satan doesn’t have the power to create things. It just doesn’t make any sense.

Maybe clarification needs to be made about God “sending people to hell”. God has given us the choice to either follow Him or not. If we follow Him he promises us Heaven, and if we chose to not follow Him, He has told us of that consequence, Hell.

So it is no so much as God sending us to hell, as it is humans making that decision.

Why does it have to be this way? Why couldn’t God have created a system that allowed everyone to go to Heaven? Well, it would seem pointless to me if everyone went to Heaven. Why even have a time on Earth then. If everyone goes to Heaven, then God would have just created us in Heaven.

Adam and Eve make sense to me then. God had created a special place for humans. Satan was jealous. He wanted to corrupt what God had created. It was not that God didn’t have the power to stop Satan, but that God had given man free will (otherwise it would have been pointless to create them on earth). Unfortunately, man chose wrong.

Could God have just destroyed everything and started again, like an experiment gone wrong? Sure. But that would not be a loving God, one that destroys His creations.

I think the biggest thing to grasp is the fact that God knows everything, yet He creates a person with free will. How is this possible? If God knows everything this person is going to do, is the person really free? Well yes. God could create a person that is going to do everything God wants, but what is the point? That person is a slave, a robot. God created us with free will, absolute and complete. God does not control our actions.

You do not believe in original sin, but do you believe in Jesus Christ? Do you believe He is the Son of God? God in the Flesh?

 

[chessmane4e5]

Sorry for the double reply but I forgot about something.

My point with the children question was not a real question. We are God’s children, but that does not mean He is going to stop every bad thing that is going to happen to us.

You have a 1 year old. Will you ever let your child ride a bike someday? Assume you do, I am sure you will get a helmet and pads. You will start off with training wheels and holding the bike steady. But eventually, the training wheels will come off and you will not be holding on to the seat to keep it steady. But what if you child falls off the bike and gets hurts? Are you to blame because you let your child ride the bike?

The same is with God. In order to experience this life, things happen. We don’t always know why. We don’t know exactly why God let’s Satan exist. But because we don’t why, is not a reason to not believe. I don’t know why God chose to take the form of a human, be crucified and die to save me from my sins. But I do know that He did and for that I am thankful.

 

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Maybe clarification needs to be made about God “sending people to hell”. God has given us the choice to either follow Him or not. If we follow Him he promises us Heaven, and if we chose to not follow Him, He has told us of that consequence, Hell.

So it is no so much as God sending us to hell, as it is humans making that decision.

Why does it have to be this way? Why couldn’t God have created a system that allowed everyone to go to Heaven? Well, it would seem pointless to me if everyone went to Heaven. Why even have a time on Earth then. If everyone goes to Heaven, then God would have just created us in Heaven.

Adam and Eve make sense to me then. God had created a special place for humans. Satan was jealous. He wanted to corrupt what God had created. It was not that God didn’t have the power to stop Satan, but that God had given man free will (otherwise it would have been pointless to create them on earth). Unfortunately, man chose wrong.

Could God have just destroyed everything and started again, like an experiment gone wrong? Sure. But that would not be a loving God, one that destroys His creations.

I think the biggest thing to grasp is the fact that God knows everything, yet He creates a person with free will. How is this possible? If God knows everything this person is going to do, is the person really free? Well yes. God could create a person that is going to do everything God wants, but what is the point? That person is a slave, a robot. God created us with free will, absolute and complete. God does not control our actions.

You do not believe in original sin, but do you believe in Jesus Christ? Do you believe He is the Son of God? God in the Flesh?

I don’t know if Jesus was fully divine. I don’t think that Jesus was more divine than the Buddha for instance. Really, I have no idea though. I wasn’t there and the gospels were written a generation after Jesus died. And even the gospels, other than disputed passages in Mark and passages from John (and John obviously was written with the purpose of proving Jesus to divine) do not explicitly say Jesus is God. And even if they did, how do we know they are accurate. I believe in God and believe Jesus to be a very special man. But I think there have been many incarnations of God that have existed on this earth. Similar to the 10 avatars of Vishnu in Hinduism. I do not think they are fully human and fully divine though. I mean, even early Christians did not seem to believe this. Paul thought that Jesus was special, but it doesn’t seem to think that he thought Jesus WAS God. As for Jesus being God, I’m just not too sure.

 

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The same is with God. In order to experience this life, things happen. We don’t always know why. We don’t know exactly why God let’s Satan exist. But because we don’t why, is not a reason to not believe. I don’t know why God chose to take the form of a human, be crucified and die to save me from my sins. But I do know that He did and for that I am thankful.

I agree with the bold. But I don’t think Satan exists. I think that Jesus was using a metaphor to be honest.

In Buddhism, there is a demon named Mara. This demon tempted the Buddha while he was meditating and achieving enlightenment. This is similar to the devil tempting Jesus in the desert. Very similar actually. But in Buddhism, Mara is in everyone. It isn’t an external force, but is portrayed that way metaphorically. It is just a product of free will. I believe satan is the same way.

 

[chessmane4e5]

Well I hope I have not offended you in our discussion, and I hope my statement does not offend you. If you do not believe Jesus is God, then you are not a Christian.

The early Christians did believe Jesus was God, especially after they saw him resurrected. I was not there either, but logic tells me that history (the bible and other sources) is accurate. The apostles all (except John) died because of their belief that Jesus was the Son of God. This to me is pretty convincing. When Jesus showed Thomas his hands and his side, or when he breathed the Holy Spirit upon them, they knew that Jesus was more than a man. There are many accounts of this belief by this Apostles that new him, and by Paul who experienced Christ after His resurrection.

From Catholic.com

Christ’s divinity is shown over and over again in the New Testament. For example, in John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he “called God his Father, making himself equal with God.”

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am”—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—“I Am” (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. “So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple” (John 8:59).

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, “My Lord and my God!” (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, “The Lord of me and the God of me!”)

In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus “[w]ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be g.asped” (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was “in very nature God.”

Also significant are passages that apply the title “the First and the Last” to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: “Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’” (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: “When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’” (Rev. 1:17). “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’” (Rev. 2:8). “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end” (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title “the Alpha and the Omega,” which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty” (Rev. 1:8).

As for doubting the bible because it was written by people after the apostles died. Remember, oral tradition was very common and important at that time. In retelling the stories and passing them on, they would have been carefully to be accurate.

 

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Other than the one quote from Paul, all of those other quotes were from the author of John. There is no doubt that the author of John believed Jesus to be God.

On the other hand, there are a lot of passages from Paul that suggest Jesus was not just a man, but they don’t suggest that Paul believed Jesus was God.

 

[chessmane4e5]

It seems like you are pointing to the fact that the writers did not explicitly say “Jesus is God.”

I think this is because it was assumed to be true. Read the four Gospel and look at what Jesus said. The writers did not need to say, “Jesus is God”, because Jesus himself was saying it. They would not have spoken this to their follows who then wrote the bible, if they did not believe it.

 

[NotWorthy]

I don’t know. When I go to church most of the people there go just to show their face and completely disregard Jesus’ message for every other hour of the week, but still think they are being good Catholics because they go to church. Jesus didn’t say to go to church every week and Paul actually said strong believers treat every day the same (as opposed to honoring the sabbath).

I don’t know. When I go to Church, I don’t spend much time judging other people. Its not the people that dictate what the Church teaches or how true that Church is. A Church is made up of believers who act out their faith and “believers” who simply check off the boxes. None of that affects what makes the Church the True Church.

 

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I don’t know. When I go to Church, I don’t spend much time judging other people. Its not the people that dictate what the Church teaches or how true that Church is. A Church is made up of believers who act out their faith and “believers” who simply check off the boxes. None of that affects what makes the Church the True Church.

I find mass to be pretty pointless to be honest. And I don’t sit in mass and judge people. Most of the time I am sitting there not paying attention and scanning the pews for good looking girls. If going to mass causes me to lust after girls, should I still go? That point is pretty stupid though.

The only parts of the mass that I think are important is the readings and the homily. I think a less pointless mass would just be the readings, then the homily, then the priest would lead a discussion with the congregation about the readings. I don’t know the tradition behind the Eucharist but I don’t think it makes me a better person, and I believe that is what Jesus’ teachings were really emphasizing.

If mass was just readings, homily, and then a discussion, most people would get more out of it…instead of just not paying attention and going into autopilot for an hour.

 

[chessmane4e5]

The only parts of the mass that I think are important is the readings and the homily. I think a less pointless mass would just be the readings, then the homily, then the priest would lead a discussion with the congregation about the readings. I don’t know the tradition behind the Eucharist but I don’t think it makes me a better person, and I believe that is what Jesus’ teachings were really emphasizing.

There are numerous reasons to go to mass; Community, Fellowship, Spirituality, a time set aside for God.

The most important reason for Catholics though (and please someone correct me if I am wrong) is to receive the Eucharist. Catholics believe that what Jesus said at the last supper, He meant. “This is my body. This is my blood. Do this in remembrance of me.” Since Jesus said, “Unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of man, you shall not go to heaven.” At the time, people were troubled by this, how could they eat Jesus’ flesh? The last supper answered that question.

So for me, the most important reason to go to Mass is to receive Jesus and to give at least 1 hour of my week to God.

Of course I try to do God’s good works during the week, “Faith without works is dead” James 2:20

 

[NotWorthy]

I find mass to be pretty pointless to be honest. And I don’t sit in mass and judge people. Most of the time I am sitting there not paying attention and scanning the pews for good looking girls. If going to mass causes me to lust after girls, should I still go? That point is pretty stupid though.

Yeah, the point is pretty stupid and irrelevant. I use to fall asleep at Mass, myself. My ribs still hurt from the pokes my wife use to give me to wake me up. Then, one day, I noticed a lady sitting in a state of near ecstasy during the same Mass that was driving me to sleep. At that point, I realized that maybe its not the Mass that is the problem. I knew that it was me. Since then, I’ve studied the Mass and what goes on and I’m amazed. I too, like your mom, try to attend Mass every day and I feel a little empty if I miss it. That’s a far cry from the way I used to be.

The only parts of the mass that I think are important is the readings and the homily. I think a less pointless mass would just be the readings, then the homily, then the priest would lead a discussion with the congregation about the readings. I don’t know the tradition behind the Eucharist but I don’t think it makes me a better person, and I believe that is what Jesus’ teachings were really emphasizing.

So maybe you should study 1 Corinthians, chapters 10 & 11. Maybe you’d realize that the part of the Mass you think are important are absolutely minor compared to the Eucharist.

But, I wonder, since you pick and choose what’s important in the readings and Gospel, what use would you have out of listening to a discussion of it.

If mass was just readings, homily, and then a discussion, most people would get more out of it…instead of just not paying attention and going into autopilot for an hour.

That makes the Mass the problem of the people and not the Church. You have absolutely no idea what is going on during the Mass if you believe your last statement. Have you asked your mom why she loves to go to Mass?

 

[NotWorthy]

There are numerous reasons to go to mass; Community, Fellowship, Spirituality, a time set aside for God.

The most important reason for Catholics though (and please someone correct me if I am wrong) is to receive the Eucharist. Catholics believe that what Jesus said at the last supper, He meant. “This is my body. This is my blood. Do this in remembrance of me.” Since Jesus said, “Unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of man, you shall not go to heaven.” At the time, people were troubled by this, how could they eat Jesus’ flesh? The last supper answered that question.

So for me, the most important reason to go to Mass is to receive Jesus and to give at least 1 hour of my week to God.

Of course I try to do God’s good works during the week, “Faith without works is dead” James 2:20

One simply needs to study the Church in Abatina (3rd or 4th century) to find out what’s the most important part of the Mass. When faced with a ban on the celebration of the Mass and death for any violators, the Abatinians (?) were arrested for attending Mass. When asked why they did this, knowing that it would lead to their death, they replied, “You don’t understand. Without the Eucharist, we are already dead” (paraphrasing).

It makes me sad to see people go to Church and receive the Eucharist without even a small sense of this desire of the Abitinians.

 

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That makes the Mass the problem of the people and not the Church. You have absolutely no idea what is going on during the Mass if you believe your last statement. Have you asked your mom why she loves to go to Mass?

It gives her peace of mind. This morning she told me “any day that starts off with mass is a good day.” I don’t get the same thing out of mass as she does, but I don’t doubt that it helps people. It just isn’t right for me though.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

It gives her peace of mind. This morning she told me “any day that starts off with mass is a good day.” I don’t get the same thing out of mass as she does, but I don’t doubt that it helps people. It just isn’t right for me though.

You sound pretty young to me. Maybe after you’ve lived and lost a little you might find meaning in the Catholic Church. Right now you know everything. When you get to be my age, you hardly know anything and that’s where faith comes in. When I look back on my life and the ones I lost, and the stupid, self-centered sinner I was, I feel bad, but I also know that I am forgiven. It’s when you don’t know that you need to be forgiven that you are in the dark. Some day, I imagine you will find meaning and beauty in the Catholic Mass.

 

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You sound pretty young to me. Maybe after you’ve lived and lost a little you might find meaning in the Catholic Church. Right now you know everything. When you get to be my age, you hardly know anything and that’s where faith comes in. When I look back on my life and the ones I lost, and the stupid, self-centered sinner I was, I feel bad, but I also know that I am forgiven. It’s when you don’t know that you need to be forgiven that you are in the dark. Some day, I imagine you will find meaning and beauty in the Catholic Mass.

This very well could happen. I am not sure though. I am 23 but I do not consider myself a self centered sinner. Nor do I think that I will look back at this time in my life and think that in the future. I am constantly thinking about religion, and I don’t know which direction my study of religion will bring me. I plan on getting a phd in religious studies and do not know what my focus will be on. I haven’t even decided if it will be an eastern or western religion. I like studying the Bible, but only to see how our views of it has changed over the years. I really like Buddhist theology though, and I like the idea of meditation. I guess we will see.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

This very well could happen. I am not sure though. I am 23 but I do not consider myself a self centered sinner. Nor do I think that I will look back at this time in my life and think that in the future. I am constantly thinking about religion, and I don’t know which direction my study of religion will bring me. I plan on getting a phd in religious studies and do not know what my focus will be on. I haven’t even decided if it will be an eastern or western religion. I like studying the Bible, but only to see how our views of it has changed over the years. I really like Buddhist theology though, and I like the idea of meditation. I guess we will see.

Well it sounds like you are on a spiritual journey, no matter where it takes you. Sounds like you have a great Mom too!

 

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Well it sounds like you are on a spiritual journey, no matter where it takes you. Sounds like you have a great Mom too!

I do have a great mom and I am on spritual journey . I think either way I will be a better person when it is all over.

 

[chessmane4e5]

You sound pretty young to me. Maybe after you’ve lived and lost a little you might find meaning in the Catholic Church. Right now you know everything. When you get to be my age, you hardly know anything and that’s where faith comes in. When I look back on my life and the ones I lost, and the stupid, self-centered sinner I was, I feel bad, but I also know that I am forgiven. It’s when you don’t know that you need to be forgiven that you are in the dark. Some day, I imagine you will find meaning and beauty in the Catholic Mass.

I am 29, I started to learn about the Catholic Religion around age 20 and I converted to Catholicism at the age of 22. Prior to this, I was raised by a Protestant mom (at the time I didn’t know what my dad believed, so I assumed he didn’t believe in God), but I was pretty much agnostic.

So who cares, right? Well I am saying all this because your post reminded me of something. I used to think, “Well if God does exist, I can always repent later in life and no worries.” Then it dawned me. I was thinking about doing this, which is so much different from people who find Christ later in life. I knew that I was neglecting God. I hid behind the view of, “Well I can’t prove God exists and I can’t prove he doesn’t, so oh well.” Or a favorite, “If God exists then He should just appear to me and prove it.” yeah, because I am worthy to view God

When I started to be honest with myself, and accept what was written in my heart, I found the Catholic Church. I was skeptical at first, but the more I learned, the more I was convinced. Now I challenging myself to learn more, because I know the more I learn, the deeper my faith will be.

Thank you for sharing a bit of your story Christine, I will say a prayer for you