Matthew 11:12, What does this mean?

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The verse in the title is from Matthew 11; it was part of yesterday’s Gospel reading.

What does it mean? I recognized it as the origin of the title of the Flannery O’Connor book, The Violent Bear It Away, but that doesn’t make it any less mysterious.

The note in the NAB wasn’t too helpful; it just said that it means Jesus’ opponents are trying to stop people from hearing of the Kingdom of Heaven. It didn’t explain the parallel phrasing in Luke, in which Jesus says that those who enter the Kingdom do so by violence.

What is our Lord teaching here? Some elaboration by selections from the Fathers or Doctors of the Church would be great, if anyone can find some.
 
Ver. 12. Suffereth violence, &c. It is not to be obtained but by main force, by using violence upon ourselves, by mortification and penance, and resisting our perverse inclinations. (Challoner) — Certainly it is great violence for a man to look for a seat in heaven, and to obtain that by his virtue which was refused him by his nature. (St. Jerome in St. Thomas Aquinas) — The kingdom of heaven, &c. That is, the kingdom of heaven is to be obtained by mortification, penance, poverty, and those practices of austerity which John, both by word and example, pointed out. According to this interpretation, the kingdom of heaven means eternal life. Or the meaning may be, the kingdom of heaven is taken by the violent, because it is not now confined, as in the old law, to one people, but open to all, that whoever will may enter in and take possession of it. The kingdom of heaven, in this interpretation, is taken for the Church of Christ, for the gospel, and also for eternal life. (Menochius)(Haydock’s Commentary)

I have heard from Protestants that one must have a forceful faith to enter the kingdom of God…Somehow that does not connect with what Jesus says, "you must deny yourself, take up your cross, and lose your life for his sake’. I do not think St. John of the Cross would think of forcefully entering the kingdom of heaven.

The literal Greek-English says, "…now the kingdom of the heavens is forcibly treated, and forceful men seize it. The Greek word for seize is ‘harpazo’. It is found in this
scripture: "Who being in the very form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped(Philip.2:6)

Equality with God is something which Satan tries to seize, or grasp.

In the context of this scripture, it seems as if Jesus was saying that the kingdom of God represented by John the Baptist and himself were being forcibly treated. John the Baptist was forcibly seized and thrown into prison. There were attempts to seize Jesus.

After saying these words, Jesus says, “How shall I declare this generation?” He then goes on to say some critical things about his generation. (Matthew 11:16-18) This is the same generation who from John the Baptist until now…

So without commenting on the passage from Luke, this is how I understand this saying of Jesus Christ. John the Baptist and Jesus Christ as representatives of the kingdom of heaven were being forcibly seized and treated.

God’s peace

micah
 
Fone_Bone_2001 said:
The verse in the title is from Matthew 11; it was part of yesterday’s Gospel reading.

What does it mean? I recognized it as the origin of the title of the Flannery O’Connor book, The Violent Bear It Away, but that doesn’t make it any less mysterious.

The note in the NAB wasn’t too helpful; it just said that it means Jesus’ opponents are trying to stop people from hearing of the Kingdom of Heaven. It didn’t explain the parallel phrasing in Luke, in which Jesus says that those who enter the Kingdom do so by violence.

What is our Lord teaching here? Some elaboration by selections from the Fathers or Doctors of the Church would be great, if anyone can find some.
Click to expand...
Here is how is it stated in my edition of The Jerusalem Bible, Matthew Chapter 11:11-15:

'I tell you solemnly, of all the children born of women, a greater than John the Baptist has never been seen, yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he is. Since John the Baptist came, up to this present time, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence and the violent are taking it by storm. Because it was towards John that all the prophecies of the prophets and of the Law were leading; and he, if you will believe me, is the Elijah who was to return. If anyone has ears to hear, let him listen!

It is an interesting passage and I am not really sure what the part about the kingdom of heaven being subjected to violence is about.
 
I have always read that passage thinking that Jesus was speaking ironically: ie if there was ever a prophet who might “kick down the doors” getting into Heaven it would be John the Baptist. I think He meant John the Baptist was the “violent” "taking it by force.
Jesus wasn’t above humor or irony. Neither was His cousin John. Like in Matthew 11:3 John sends messengers to Jesus asking “Are you the one who is to come, or should we look for another?” John the Baptist knew who Jesus was (“Behold the Lamb of God” John 1:36), but he is speaking ironically – meaning: “when are you going to come into your own” (another example of John the Baptist taking on the Kingdom of God by “force”.
 
I have a NAB study bible with the following footnote of this verse:

“The meaning of this is difficult, saying is probably that the opponents of Jesus are trying to prevent people from accepting the kingdom and to snatch it away from those who have received it.”
 
mercytruth said:
Ver. 12. Suffereth violence, &c. It is not to be obtained but by main force, by using violence upon ourselves, by mortification and penance, and resisting our perverse inclinations. (Challoner) — Certainly it is great violence for a man to look for a seat in heaven, and to obtain that by his virtue which was refused him by his nature. (St. Jerome in St. Thomas Aquinas) — The kingdom of heaven, &c. That is, the kingdom of heaven is to be obtained by mortification, penance, poverty, and those practices of austerity which John, both by word and example, pointed out.(Menochius)(Haydock’s Commentary)
Click to expand...
Wow, that makes so much sense. Thank you.

And for the record, the Protestant interpretation sounds just like what the above selections say. The quotations you provided above - thank you again! they’re quite profound - seem to back up the Protestant interpretation you cited: saying that only one with a forceful faith can enter the Kingdom of God is, it seems to me, another way of saying that only with penance, repentance, mortification, and similar violence upon the self can one persevere and enter the Kingdom.

Denying yourself is a forceful practice of a forceful faith.
mercytruth said:
The literal Greek-English says, "…now the kingdom of the heavens is forcibly treated, and forceful men seize it. The Greek word for seize is ‘harpazo’. It is found in this scripture: "Who being in the very form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped (Philip.2:6)
Click to expand...
Ah, beautiful. So the Kingdom of God must be “seized” as the St. Jerome quote you cited above reflects: “Certainly it is great violence for a man to look for a seat in heaven, and to obtain that by his virtue which was refused him by his nature.” (St. Jerome in St. Thomas Aquinas)
 
“And from the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent bear it away.”

“The kingdom of heaven suffers” and is stormed in a sense. Christ uses figurative language to indicate that his kingdom will be sought with intense desire and holy impulse. “The violent” who “bear it away”, and capture in a sense the kingdom of of heaven, are those who do violence to themselves for their penitence and their sanctification.
 
*mercytruth,
What you wrote makes perfect sense. *

Scripture can also be hard to understand. Instead of trying to understand it through our perspective we have try to understand it from Gods perspective.

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent are taking it by force.

Jesus gave a specific time period here and that should be noted because it makes all the difference in the world. From the Days of John the Baptist until NOW. So what happened from the Days of John the Baptist up to this PRESENT Day that Jesus was talking about (Present day for Jesus not for us). As John the Baptist put it, You broad of Vipers…
**
the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent are taking it by force.**

I can rephrase this better than I can explain it.
The Violent are trying to take the Kingdom of Heaven by Force.

In this context it makes sense considering Jesus wants us to humbly submit to his will in exchange for a trip to heaven. These people were assaulting the way to heaven (Including John the Baptist) and trying to take heaven by force.

Correct me if I am wrong but this makes sense to me.

God Bless.
 
Azygos said:
*mercytruth,
What you wrote makes perfect sense. *

Scripture can also be hard to understand. Instead of trying to understand it through our perspective we have try to understand it from Gods perspective.

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent are taking it by force.

Jesus gave a specific time period here and that should be noted because it makes all the difference in the world. From the Days of John the Baptist until NOW. So what happened from the Days of John the Baptist up to this PRESENT Day that Jesus was talking about (Present day for Jesus not for us). As John the Baptist put it, You broad of Vipers…
**
the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent are taking it by force.**

I can rephrase this better than I can explain it.
The Violent are trying to take the Kingdom of Heaven by Force.

In this context it makes sense considering Jesus wants us to humbly submit to his will in exchange for a trip to heaven. These people were assaulting the way to heaven (Including John the Baptist) and trying to take heaven by force.

Correct me if I am wrong but this makes sense to me.

God Bless.
Click to expand...
Well, yes and no…and even maybe. When I read the various posts most think of this scripture as meaning those who **enter **the kingdom of heaven are taking it by force.

I don’t like to be contrary for the sake of contrary, yet since I am in the minority viewpoint of this scripture, I do need to give this more reflection. I’ll try to explain more clearly my original understanding.

I do not think that this scripture primarily has anything to do with entering the kingdom of heaven. I think it has to do with the opposition that the kingdom of heaven was facing in the generation of John the Baptist and of Jesus Christ. Basically, the kingdom of heaven was being revealed to that generation to the people of Israel **in the persons **of John the Baptist and of Jesus Christ.

John the Baptist as a representative of the kingdom of heaven was ‘harpazo’ (seized) and thrown into prison and eventually beheaded. There were attempts to ‘seize’ or arrest Jesus Christ also. Jesus of course, primarily **represented **the kingdom of heaven on earth. Those who do the will of God, are those who represent the kingdom of heaven on earth.

John the Baptist and Jesus Christ in their obedience to the will of God on earth, were representatives of the kingdom of heaven on earth. They were violently opposed for their witness of the will of God to those who said they were religious, but were not obedient to the will of God on earth.

The irony of this scripture is that the Greek word, ‘harpazo’, meaning to ‘seize’ is translated ‘caught up’ in the Thessalonian verse of the resurrection of the dead when Jesus Christ returns with the saints **with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God. **So, those who represent the kingdom of heaven on earth when Jesus Christ returns, will actually be taken by force **not **by those who oppose them, but by the angels of God, so as to be ever with the Lord.

There could be a secondary meaning along with the original understanding that I have attempted to explain…which may be forthcoming.

God’s peace be with you

micah
 
mercytruth said:
Well, yes and no…and even maybe. When I read the various posts most think of this scripture as meaning those who **enter **the kingdom of heaven are taking it by force.

I don’t like to be contrary for the sake of contrary, yet since I am in the minority viewpoint of this scripture, I do need to give this more reflection. I’ll try to explain more clearly my original understanding.

I do not think that this scripture primarily has anything to do with entering the kingdom of heaven. I think it has to do with the opposition that the kingdom of heaven was facing in the generation of John the Baptist and of Jesus Christ. Basically, the kingdom of heaven was being revealed to that generation to the people of Israel **in the persons **of John the Baptist and of Jesus Christ.

John the Baptist as a representative of the kingdom of heaven was ‘harpazo’ (seized) and thrown into prison and eventually beheaded. There were attempts to ‘seize’ or arrest Jesus Christ also. Jesus of course, primarily **represented **the kingdom of heaven on earth. Those who do the will of God, are those who represent the kingdom of heaven on earth.

John the Baptist and Jesus Christ in their obedience to the will of God on earth, were representatives of the kingdom of heaven on earth. They were violently opposed for their witness of the will of God to those who said they were religious, but were not obedient to the will of God on earth.

The irony of this scripture is that the Greek word, ‘harpazo’, meaning to ‘seize’ is translated ‘caught up’ in the Thessalonian verse of the resurrection of the dead when Jesus Christ returns with the saints **with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God. **So, those who represent the kingdom of heaven on earth when Jesus Christ returns, will actually be taken by force **not **by those who oppose them, but by the angels of God, so as to be ever with the Lord.

There could be a secondary meaning along with the original understanding that I have attempted to explain…which may be forthcoming.

God’s peace be with you

micah
Click to expand...
 
Azygos said:
*mercytruth,
What you wrote makes perfect sense. *

Scripture can also be hard to understand. Instead of trying to understand it through our perspective we have try to understand it from Gods perspective.

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent are taking it by force.

Jesus gave a specific time period here and that should be noted because it makes all the difference in the world. From the Days of John the Baptist until NOW. So what happened from the Days of John the Baptist up to this PRESENT Day that Jesus was talking about (Present day for Jesus not for us). As John the Baptist put it, You broad of Vipers…
**
the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent are taking it by force.**

I can rephrase this better than I can explain it.
The Violent are trying to take the Kingdom of Heaven by Force.

In this context it makes sense considering Jesus wants us to humbly submit to his will in exchange for a trip to heaven. These people were assaulting the way to heaven (Including John the Baptist) and trying to take heaven by force.

Correct me if I am wrong but this makes sense to me.

God Bless.
Click to expand...
Oops sorry for the misunderstanding. What I meant by these people assaulting the way to heaven was that they were violent against Gods Chosen People that tried to show them the way to heaven. Like John the Baptist. I didn’t mean they were actually storming heaven. Also when I said the violent tried to take heaven by force it is still true. I do not mean that they entered heaven by force. That is why I reaffirmed what I said about Jesus only wanting the humble that submit to his will to enter heaven.

That is also why I quoted John the Baptist, You broad of Vipers.

Anyways, I completely agree with you.
Thank you Mercy.
 
Azygos said:
Oops sorry for the misunderstanding. What I meant by these people assaulting the way to heaven was that they were violent against Gods Chosen People that tried to show them the way to heaven. Like John the Baptist. I didn’t mean they were actually storming heaven. Also when I said the violent tried to take heaven by force it is still true. I do not mean that they entered heaven by force. That is why I reaffirmed what I said about Jesus only wanting the humble that submit to his will to enter heaven.

That is also why I quoted John the Baptist, You broad of Vipers.

Anyways, I completely agree with you.
Thank you Mercy.
Click to expand...
Well, thank you for your clarification. Yes, the humble like one of ‘these little ones’ are those who will enter the kingdom of heaven.

.There are some scriptures which may never be completely understood, until the time that is writtten, "For now we see as through a glass darkly, but then face to face. Now we know in part, but then shall we know, even as we are known"

God’s peace be with you
 
Dolezal said:
“And from the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent bear it away.”

“The kingdom of heaven suffers” and is stormed in a sense. Christ uses figurative language to indicate that his kingdom will be sought with intense desire and holy impulse. “The violent” who “bear it away”, and capture in a sense the kingdom of of heaven, are those who do violence to themselves for their penitence and their sanctification.
Click to expand...
Thank you; that makes sense.
 
Dolezal said:
“And from the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent bear it away.”

“The kingdom of heaven suffers” and is stormed in a sense. Christ uses figurative language to indicate that his kingdom will be sought with intense desire and holy impulse. “The violent” who “bear it away”, and capture in a sense the kingdom of of heaven, are those who do violence to themselves for their penitence and their sanctification.
Click to expand...
Sorry but that does not make sense because of the time period. He said from John the Baptist until Now. The Now means that present day not our present day. This verse is not a continuation of the present time but it was of that exact period of time. Also when has Jesus ever promoted Violence to oneself? The answer is never. The statement alone should tell you all you need to know about it’s Truth.

Quote - Are those who do violence to themselves for their penitence and their sanctification- Close Quote.

When has it ever been violent to do penitence or sanctification??? Absurd.
 
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