H
Hodos
Guest
Is there any evidence that he did so?
- Status
B
BartholomewB
Guest
Not that I know of. It’s just that, from what is known about the relationship between the two, Constantine seems to have been the one giving the orders.
H
Hodos
Guest
He was the one giving the orders with regard to the convening of this Council, which is one of the reasons that many historians agree that Papal primacy was a historical development over time.
O
Optatus
Guest
Hodos & Bart,
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
You guys sure know your stuff!
2 more questions please!! One for my own consumption, another for this group of young Christians that I am trying to help:
(a) For the young Christians: I went to Catholic School and I have always been taught that the Bishop of Rome has always held the position of Supreme Pontiff since the Second Century. However, now, especially after the advent of the Internet, we can all get into the best history books, Catholic libraries, etc. And I find out that this was not was really happened.
The bishop of Rome has always been held in a position of high honor, however the practice of having the church administration led by a Supreme Pontiff over all bishops only started by the end of the Sixth Century.
I don’t blame my teachers, very possibly I was the one who got it wrong.
HOWEVER I DON’T WANT TO PASS ON THIS HISTORICAL INACCURACY TO YOUNG SEEKING CHRISTIANS.
This is why I am struggling with a “Doctrinal Explanation”.
One of the doctrinal explanation that I ventured was that “Although the Supreme Pontificate was God’s determination since the first century, it only started being practiced in 590 AD.” However I still don’t know if this would stick (this is why I need your help).
(b) Now the question for me myself:
Do you guys know where was the residence of the Emperor Constantine during the Nicean Concil? Was his residence in Rome of in the Asia Minor (Byzantium, Nicomedia, Nicea & surrounding areas)?
Did the Emperor Constantine adopted the bishop of Rome, Sylvester, as his Christian counselor? Did he have a Christian counselor?
Now some speculation: Do you guys believe that Constantine was taught by his Christian masters that the Bishop of Rome had to have the position of Bishop over all bishops?
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
You guys sure know your stuff!
2 more questions please!! One for my own consumption, another for this group of young Christians that I am trying to help:
(a) For the young Christians: I went to Catholic School and I have always been taught that the Bishop of Rome has always held the position of Supreme Pontiff since the Second Century. However, now, especially after the advent of the Internet, we can all get into the best history books, Catholic libraries, etc. And I find out that this was not was really happened.
The bishop of Rome has always been held in a position of high honor, however the practice of having the church administration led by a Supreme Pontiff over all bishops only started by the end of the Sixth Century.
I don’t blame my teachers, very possibly I was the one who got it wrong.
HOWEVER I DON’T WANT TO PASS ON THIS HISTORICAL INACCURACY TO YOUNG SEEKING CHRISTIANS.
This is why I am struggling with a “Doctrinal Explanation”.
One of the doctrinal explanation that I ventured was that “Although the Supreme Pontificate was God’s determination since the first century, it only started being practiced in 590 AD.” However I still don’t know if this would stick (this is why I need your help).
(b) Now the question for me myself:
Do you guys know where was the residence of the Emperor Constantine during the Nicean Concil? Was his residence in Rome of in the Asia Minor (Byzantium, Nicomedia, Nicea & surrounding areas)?
Did the Emperor Constantine adopted the bishop of Rome, Sylvester, as his Christian counselor? Did he have a Christian counselor?
Now some speculation: Do you guys believe that Constantine was taught by his Christian masters that the Bishop of Rome had to have the position of Bishop over all bishops?
O
Optatus
Guest
ElCore,
I understand your lack of time and I don’t want to “free-load” on you. However, perhaps you could just peruse my two other questions and give me a “one or two sentences” comment about them’
Here they go:
Hodos & Bart,
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
You guys sure know your stuff!
2 more questions please!! One for my own consumption, another for this group of young Christians that I am trying to help:
(a) For the young Christians: I went to Catholic School and I have always been taught that the Bishop of Rome has always held the position of Supreme Pontiff since the Second Century. However, now, especially after the advent of the Internet, we can all get into the best history books, Catholic libraries, etc. And I find out that this was not was really happened.
The bishop of Rome has always been held in a position of high honor, however the practice of having the church administration led by a Supreme Pontiff over all bishops only started by the end of the Sixth Century.
I don’t blame my teachers, very possibly I was the one who got it wrong.
HOWEVER I DON’T WANT TO PASS ON THIS HISTORICAL INACCURACY TO YOUNG SEEKING CHRISTIANS.
This is why I am struggling with a “Doctrinal Explanation”.
One of the doctrinal explanation that I ventured was that “Although the Supreme Pontificate was God’s determination since the first century, it only started being practiced in 590 AD.” However I still don’t know if this would stick (this is why I need your help).
(b) Now the question for me myself:
Do you guys know where was the residence of the Emperor Constantine during the Nicean Concil? Was his residence in Rome or in the Asia Minor (Byzantium, Nicomedia, Nicea & surrounding areas)?
Did the Emperor Constantine adopted the bishop of Rome, Sylvester, as his Christian counselor? Did he have a Christian counselor?
Now some speculation: Do you guys believe that Constantine was taught by his Christian masters that the Bishop of Rome had to have the position of Bishop over all bishops?
I understand your lack of time and I don’t want to “free-load” on you. However, perhaps you could just peruse my two other questions and give me a “one or two sentences” comment about them’
Here they go:
Hodos & Bart,
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
You guys sure know your stuff!
2 more questions please!! One for my own consumption, another for this group of young Christians that I am trying to help:
(a) For the young Christians: I went to Catholic School and I have always been taught that the Bishop of Rome has always held the position of Supreme Pontiff since the Second Century. However, now, especially after the advent of the Internet, we can all get into the best history books, Catholic libraries, etc. And I find out that this was not was really happened.
The bishop of Rome has always been held in a position of high honor, however the practice of having the church administration led by a Supreme Pontiff over all bishops only started by the end of the Sixth Century.
I don’t blame my teachers, very possibly I was the one who got it wrong.
HOWEVER I DON’T WANT TO PASS ON THIS HISTORICAL INACCURACY TO YOUNG SEEKING CHRISTIANS.
This is why I am struggling with a “Doctrinal Explanation”.
One of the doctrinal explanation that I ventured was that “Although the Supreme Pontificate was God’s determination since the first century, it only started being practiced in 590 AD.” However I still don’t know if this would stick (this is why I need your help).
(b) Now the question for me myself:
Do you guys know where was the residence of the Emperor Constantine during the Nicean Concil? Was his residence in Rome or in the Asia Minor (Byzantium, Nicomedia, Nicea & surrounding areas)?
Did the Emperor Constantine adopted the bishop of Rome, Sylvester, as his Christian counselor? Did he have a Christian counselor?
Now some speculation: Do you guys believe that Constantine was taught by his Christian masters that the Bishop of Rome had to have the position of Bishop over all bishops?
B
BartholomewB
Guest
I don’t think Sylvester had much influence over Constantine, from my vague recollection of one or two books I read a long time ago.
Athanasius, the bishop of Alexandria, featured prominently in Constantine’s efforts to reorganize the Church, and I would guess that he’s more likely to have been the influential one. But I could be wrong, I’m not a historian!
B
BartholomewB
Guest
This is the name you’re looking for, I think. He was a member of Constantine’s household for several years, in the capacity of tutor to Constantine’s son Crispus.
en.wikipedia.org
Lactantius - Wikipedia
H
HeDa
Guest
The Church has councils/synod/meetings when there is an issue regarding an article of faith or how something is done. Not until there are problems in a larger area are bishops called to meet up until then it is up to the local bishop to deal with it.
H
Hodos
Guest
I think you are struggling with a doctrinal explanation, because there is none. What usually happens is that someone grabs a text from scriptures, that does not address a view of ecclesiastical authority, and anachronistically overlays centuries of historical development into the text, rather than just admitting that ecclesiastical structure was never addressed by Christ, or even the apostles. The ecclesiastical structure of the Church should really be looked at, in my opinion, as a matter of canon law, a manmade construction that has changed and still may change based on the needs of the Church, rather than doctrine which was revealed by the Holy Spirit. Take from that whatever you will. It is my personal opinion, not doctrine, but I think it is grounded in what the scriptures actually say
By the time of the Council of Nicaea, Constantine’s functional capital of the Roman Empire was Constantinople. Nicaea was essentially a resort town on the Black Sea, northeast of the capital.
No. In fact, by the end of his life Constantine broke with Orthodox Catholicism in favor of Arianism. He elevated Eusebius of Nicomedia, an Arian Bishop, to be the Bishop of Constantinople, essentially making him the see of the most important city in the Roman Empire at the time, and he was baptized shortly before his death as an Arian by Eusebius. Sylvester was dead by this time, and a new Roman bishop was in place.
Absolutely not, there is no evidence that this was the case, and I would argue that there is far more evidence given what occurred over the next fifty years with the rise of Arianism all throughout the empire that the bishop of Constantinople was far more influential empire wide than was the bishop of Rome. During this time (under the successors of Constantine) you see Athanasius fighting for the heart of orthodox Christianity, essentially alone. Even the Roman pontiff was forced during this time to accede to Arianism. It wasn’t until Theodosius reigned in the 380s and 390s when the Arian tide was turned, mostly due to infighting for power amongst themselves, and the patronage of Theodosius. When we look at great Christian Roman Emperors, I hold Theodosius in far higher regard for his importance in the influence on orthodox Christianity than Constantine. Theodosius cared far more about doctrine, whereas Constantine took a much more pragmatic outlook on doctrine as a source of unification.
F
Francis
Guest
@Optatus
Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son Jeremiah 3:15 “‘And I will give you shepherds (Popes)after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding. Matthew 7:24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock
Word of God is Truth as in .JOHN 17:17 ,We know JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF HAS ESTABLISHED HIS TRUE CHURCH** ON EARTH AND THE SUCCESSOR OF ST PETER, THE POPES **Matthew 16:16-18.
He was the first of the Bishops of Rome to popularize the now-traditional Papal title, which referred to Christ’s command that those in the highest position of leadership should be “the last of all and the servant of all.” and it didn’t mean he broth about the same,He Popularize the Title just as Jesus has Established it .
Catholic Church states traditions as the orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”; 1 Corinthians 11:2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I handed them on to you. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.
JESUS CHRISH HIMSELF HAS ESTABLISHED HIS TRUE CHURCH ON EARTH AND THE SUCESSOR OF ST PETER, THE POPES **Matthew 16:16-18 ** And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.18 And I say to thee : That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son Jeremiah 3:15 “‘And I will give you shepherds (Popes)after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding. Matthew 7:24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock
There are many historian who believe and prove Jesus Has No History nor existed ,its surprising people base their belief on what some person’s personal opinions.It was not brought about for the first time in 590 AD with Saint Gregory the Great as the bishop of Rome.
Word of God is Truth as in .JOHN 17:17 ,We know JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF HAS ESTABLISHED HIS TRUE CHURCH** ON EARTH AND THE SUCCESSOR OF ST PETER, THE POPES **Matthew 16:16-18.
He was the first of the Bishops of Rome to popularize the now-traditional Papal title, which referred to Christ’s command that those in the highest position of leadership should be “the last of all and the servant of all.” and it didn’t mean he broth about the same,He Popularize the Title just as Jesus has Established it .
Catholic Church states traditions as the orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”; 1 Corinthians 11:2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I handed them on to you. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.
F
Francis
Guest
II. THE CHURCH’S ORIGIN, FOUNDATION AND MISSION
[758] We begin our investigation of the Church’s mystery by meditating on her origin in the Holy Trinity’s plan and her progressive realization in history.
A plan born in the Father’s heart
[759] "The eternal Father, in accordance with the utterly gratuitous and mysterious design of his wisdom and goodness, created the whole universe and chose to raise up men to share in his own divine life,"150 to which he calls all men in his Son. "The Father . . . determined to call together in a holy Church those who should believe in Christ."151 This “family of God” is gradually formed and takes shape during the stages of human history, in keeping with the Father’s plan. In fact, "already present in figure at the beginning of the world, this Church was prepared in marvelous fashion in the history of the people of Israel and the old Advance. Established in this last age of the world and made manifest in the outpouring of the Spirit, it will be brought to glorious completion at the end of time."152
The Church - instituted by Christ Jesus
[763] It was the Son’s task to accomplish the Father’s plan of salvation in the fullness of time. Its accomplishment was the reason for his being sent.160 "The Lord Jesus inaugurated his Church by preaching the Good News, that is, the coming of the Reign of God, promised over the ages in the scriptures."161 To fulfill the Father’s will, Christ ushered in the Kingdom of heaven on earth. The Church "is the Reign of Christ already present in mystery."162
[764]( "This Kingdom shines out before men in the word, in the works and in the presence of Christ."163 To welcome Jesus’ word is to welcome "the Kingdom itself."164 The seed and beginning of the Kingdom are the “little flock” of those whom Jesus came to gather around him, the flock whose shepherd he is.165 They form Jesus’ true family.166 To those whom he thus gathered around him, he taught a new “way of acting” and a prayer of their own.167
[765] The Lord Jesus endowed his community with a structure that will remain until the Kingdom is fully achieved. Before all else there is the choice of the Twelve with Peter as their head.168 Representing the twelve tribes of Israel, they are the foundation stones of the new Jerusalem.169 The Twelve and the other disciples share in Christ’s mission and his power, but also in his lot.170 By all his actions, Christ prepares and builds his Church.
[766] The Church is born primarily of Christ’s total self-giving for our salvation, anticipated in the institution of the Eucharist and fulfilled on the cross. "The origin and growth of the Church are symbolized by the blood and water which flowed from the open side of the crucified Jesus."171 "For it was from the side of Christ as he slept the sleep of death upon the cross that there came forth the ‘wondrous sacrament of the whole Church.’"172 As Eve was formed from the sleeping Adam’s side, so the Church was born from the pierced heart of Christ hanging dead on the cross.173
[758] We begin our investigation of the Church’s mystery by meditating on her origin in the Holy Trinity’s plan and her progressive realization in history.
A plan born in the Father’s heart
[759] "The eternal Father, in accordance with the utterly gratuitous and mysterious design of his wisdom and goodness, created the whole universe and chose to raise up men to share in his own divine life,"150 to which he calls all men in his Son. "The Father . . . determined to call together in a holy Church those who should believe in Christ."151 This “family of God” is gradually formed and takes shape during the stages of human history, in keeping with the Father’s plan. In fact, "already present in figure at the beginning of the world, this Church was prepared in marvelous fashion in the history of the people of Israel and the old Advance. Established in this last age of the world and made manifest in the outpouring of the Spirit, it will be brought to glorious completion at the end of time."152
The Church - instituted by Christ Jesus
[763] It was the Son’s task to accomplish the Father’s plan of salvation in the fullness of time. Its accomplishment was the reason for his being sent.160 "The Lord Jesus inaugurated his Church by preaching the Good News, that is, the coming of the Reign of God, promised over the ages in the scriptures."161 To fulfill the Father’s will, Christ ushered in the Kingdom of heaven on earth. The Church "is the Reign of Christ already present in mystery."162
[764]( "This Kingdom shines out before men in the word, in the works and in the presence of Christ."163 To welcome Jesus’ word is to welcome "the Kingdom itself."164 The seed and beginning of the Kingdom are the “little flock” of those whom Jesus came to gather around him, the flock whose shepherd he is.165 They form Jesus’ true family.166 To those whom he thus gathered around him, he taught a new “way of acting” and a prayer of their own.167
[765] The Lord Jesus endowed his community with a structure that will remain until the Kingdom is fully achieved. Before all else there is the choice of the Twelve with Peter as their head.168 Representing the twelve tribes of Israel, they are the foundation stones of the new Jerusalem.169 The Twelve and the other disciples share in Christ’s mission and his power, but also in his lot.170 By all his actions, Christ prepares and builds his Church.
[766] The Church is born primarily of Christ’s total self-giving for our salvation, anticipated in the institution of the Eucharist and fulfilled on the cross. "The origin and growth of the Church are symbolized by the blood and water which flowed from the open side of the crucified Jesus."171 "For it was from the side of Christ as he slept the sleep of death upon the cross that there came forth the ‘wondrous sacrament of the whole Church.’"172 As Eve was formed from the sleeping Adam’s side, so the Church was born from the pierced heart of Christ hanging dead on the cross.173
O
Optatus
Guest
I agree with all you say, Francis, however, my current challenge is how to reconcile your (our) statements with history. Especially for teaching young people.
What I hear, both in the Internet and from all the dear friends in this thread, is that the Supreme Pontificate of the Bishop of Rome only started in 590 AD.
In other words, a group of bishop from a group of diocese who declared (and started to practice) that the bishop of Rome was the bishop over all bishop in the whole earth. And that his authority had preeminence over their local authority on their diocese.
Francis, this is my question for you:
Is this true?
If this is true, should it be taught to young Catholics?
Should we use an explanation to clarify why this has not been obeyed and practiced for 500 years?
I personally guess that there must be a reason for this “500 year interval”.
Perhaps the early Christian never understood this point correctly in the Bible.
Or perhaps the early Christian interpreted these passages a different way.
What do you think?
Please help me.
What I hear, both in the Internet and from all the dear friends in this thread, is that the Supreme Pontificate of the Bishop of Rome only started in 590 AD.
In other words, a group of bishop from a group of diocese who declared (and started to practice) that the bishop of Rome was the bishop over all bishop in the whole earth. And that his authority had preeminence over their local authority on their diocese.
Francis, this is my question for you:
Is this true?
If this is true, should it be taught to young Catholics?
Should we use an explanation to clarify why this has not been obeyed and practiced for 500 years?
I personally guess that there must be a reason for this “500 year interval”.
Perhaps the early Christian never understood this point correctly in the Bible.
Or perhaps the early Christian interpreted these passages a different way.
What do you think?
Please help me.
F
Francis
Guest
disagreed here on this. One Word of God in Matthew 16:16-18 is more that enough because Christ Himself has said it ,and through out the New Testament it is very clear that St Peter is the Head or in other Prince of the Apostolic CollageThat thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
[815] What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity "binds everything together in perfect harmony."265 But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:
its wrong to say it just started in 590 AD by Saint Gregory the Great ,rather **he popularize ** the importance of the successor of Peter and the Catholic Church pointing towards what Jesus Himself established in Matthew 16:16-18 , that how its truly is but an authority derived from a delegation of God’s sovereignty." it should be taught right from this verse Matthew 16:16-18 till the present Pope Francis the Successor of St Peter . In 590 AD Saint Gregory the Great as the bishop of Rome only to popularize it or rather promoted the title since the Catholic Church was spreading to different countries and both locally and many false heresies were wide spread.Isaiah 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.“In other words, Peter would give decisions, based on the teachings of Jesus, which would be bound in heaven; that is, honored by God.”.The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15).
It should be taught from the very beginning right from Matthew 16:16-18 which Jesus established the True Church on Earth 2000 Years ago That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it..It is false and wrong to say there is a 500 years of interval or has not been obeyed and practiced for 500 years.Right from St Peter till the present Pope Francis there is no intervals always a Pope . In 590 AD Saint Gregory the Great as the bishop of Rome only to popularize it what was taught by Jesus either in word or letter coming from the lips of Christ and the Apostles teachings as in the Catholic Traditions.
[815] What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity "binds everything together in perfect harmony."265 But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:
- profession of one faith received from the Apostles;
- apostolic succession through the sacrament of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God’s family.266 1 Tim 5:22
F
Francis
Guest
[811] "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic."256 These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other,257 indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities.
[812] Only faith can recognize that the Church possesses these properties from her divine source. But their historical manifestations are signs that also speak clearly to human reason. As the First Vatican Council noted, the "Church herself, with her marvelous propagation, eminent holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in everything good, her catholic unity and invincible stability, is a great and perpetual motive of credibility and an irrefutable witness of her divine mission."258
[814] From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God’s gifts and the diversity of those who receive them. Within the unity of the People of God, a multiplicity of peoples and cultures is gathered together. Among the Church’s members, there are different gifts, offices, conditions, and ways of life. "Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions."263 The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church’s unity. Yet sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. And so the Apostle has to exhort Christians to "maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."264
[815] What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity "binds everything together in perfect harmony."265 But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:
The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268
[812] Only faith can recognize that the Church possesses these properties from her divine source. But their historical manifestations are signs that also speak clearly to human reason. As the First Vatican Council noted, the "Church herself, with her marvelous propagation, eminent holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in everything good, her catholic unity and invincible stability, is a great and perpetual motive of credibility and an irrefutable witness of her divine mission."258
[814] From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God’s gifts and the diversity of those who receive them. Within the unity of the People of God, a multiplicity of peoples and cultures is gathered together. Among the Church’s members, there are different gifts, offices, conditions, and ways of life. "Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions."263 The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church’s unity. Yet sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. And so the Apostle has to exhort Christians to "maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."264
[815] What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity "binds everything together in perfect harmony."265 But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:
- profession of one faith received from the Apostles;
- apostolic succession through the sacrament of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God’s family.266
The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268
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F
Francis
Guest
IV. THE CHURCH IS APOSTOLIC
[857] The Church is apostolic because she is founded on the apostles, in three ways:
who never leaves his flock untended.
Through the apostles
you watch over us and protect us always.
You made them shepherds of the flock
to share in the work of your Son. . . .367
The bishops - successors of the apostles
[861] "In order that the mission entrusted to them might be continued after their death, [the apostles] consigned, by will and testament, as it were, to their immediate collaborators the duty of completing and consolidating the work they had begun, urging them to tend to the whole flock, in which the Holy Spirit had appointed them to shepherd the Church of God. They accordingly designated such men and then made the ruling that likewise on their death other proven men should take over their ministry."374
[862] "Just as the office which the Lord confided to Peter alone, as first of the apostles, destined to be transmitted to his successors, is a permanent one, so also endures the office, which the apostles received, of shepherding the Church, a charge destined to be exercised without interruption by the sacred order of bishops."375 Hence the Church teaches that "the bishops have by divine institution taken the place of the apostles as pastors of the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them is listening to Christ and whoever despises them despises Christ and him who sent Christ."376
The apostolate
[863] The whole Church is apostolic, in that she remains, through the successors of St. Peter and the other apostles, in communion of faith and life with her origin: and in that she is “sent out” into the whole world. All members of the Church share in this mission, though in various ways. “The Christian vocation is, of its nature, a vocation to the apostolate as well.” Indeed, we call an apostolate “every activity of the Mystical Body” that aims "to spread the Kingdom of Christ over all the earth."377
[864] “Christ, sent by the Father, is the source of the Church’s whole apostolate”; thus the fruitfulness of apostolate for ordained ministers as well as for lay people clearly depends on their vital union with Christ.378 In keeping with their vocations, the demands of the times and the various gifts of the Holy Spirit, the apostolate assumes the most varied forms. But charity, drawn from the Eucharist above all, is always "as it were, the soul of the whole apostolate."379
[857] The Church is apostolic because she is founded on the apostles, in three ways:
- she was and remains built on "the foundation of the Apostles,"362 the witnesses chosen and sent on mission by Christ himself;363
- with the help of the Spirit dwelling in her, the Church keeps and hands on the teaching,364 the “good deposit,” the salutary words she has heard from the apostles;365
- she continues to be taught, sanctified, and guided by the apostles until Christ’s return, through their successors in pastoral office: the college of bishops, “assisted by priests, in union with the successor of Peter, the Church’s supreme pastor”:366
who never leaves his flock untended.
Through the apostles
you watch over us and protect us always.
You made them shepherds of the flock
to share in the work of your Son. . . .367
The bishops - successors of the apostles
[861] "In order that the mission entrusted to them might be continued after their death, [the apostles] consigned, by will and testament, as it were, to their immediate collaborators the duty of completing and consolidating the work they had begun, urging them to tend to the whole flock, in which the Holy Spirit had appointed them to shepherd the Church of God. They accordingly designated such men and then made the ruling that likewise on their death other proven men should take over their ministry."374
[862] "Just as the office which the Lord confided to Peter alone, as first of the apostles, destined to be transmitted to his successors, is a permanent one, so also endures the office, which the apostles received, of shepherding the Church, a charge destined to be exercised without interruption by the sacred order of bishops."375 Hence the Church teaches that "the bishops have by divine institution taken the place of the apostles as pastors of the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them is listening to Christ and whoever despises them despises Christ and him who sent Christ."376
The apostolate
[863] The whole Church is apostolic, in that she remains, through the successors of St. Peter and the other apostles, in communion of faith and life with her origin: and in that she is “sent out” into the whole world. All members of the Church share in this mission, though in various ways. “The Christian vocation is, of its nature, a vocation to the apostolate as well.” Indeed, we call an apostolate “every activity of the Mystical Body” that aims "to spread the Kingdom of Christ over all the earth."377
[864] “Christ, sent by the Father, is the source of the Church’s whole apostolate”; thus the fruitfulness of apostolate for ordained ministers as well as for lay people clearly depends on their vital union with Christ.378 In keeping with their vocations, the demands of the times and the various gifts of the Holy Spirit, the apostolate assumes the most varied forms. But charity, drawn from the Eucharist above all, is always "as it were, the soul of the whole apostolate."379
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BartholomewB
Guest
The answer is to be found, I think, not in trying to puzzle out what different people thought Jesus meant, but in the history of the Church’s long and difficult struggle to build itself in conformity with the plain statement, “Upon this rock …”. Prior to 312, Christianity was one religion among many in the Roman Empire and Christians were often hated, harassed and victimized by their non-Christian neighbors, even when they weren’t being actively persecuted by the authorities. The Church had no official standing in that period, and at times was regarded as a criminal organization, guilty of the crime of failing to honor the Empire’s official gods and goddesses. Each local unit, each little Christian community, had a tough time just staying alive. It’s expecting too much of them, in those conditions, to demand that they should function as a fully structured organization operating a clearly defined chain of command from the Pope downward.
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Optatus
Guest
Francis, I think that now we are getting to something.
I believe that the word “popularize” solves the whole issue.
See if you agree with my statements below:
(a)The institution of the Bishop of Rome being the bishop over all bishop on the earth is revealed in the Word of God and in Apostle’s tradition and it is an indisputable truth and its validity has no “intervals” neither in time (before vs after 590 AD) nor in space (West Roman Empire vs East Roman Empire).
(b) Gregory the Great “popularized” this unchangeable truth by instituting the actual practice of having bishops and dioceses regarding the bishop of Rome as the Supreme Pontiff and submitting their local authority to the Bible supported preeminence of the authority of the Bishop of Rome.
(c ) Although being 100% supported by the Holy Scriptures and the Apostle’s Tradition, this authority model had not been practiced before and it started with the adherence by a few dioceses close to Rome. It spread through the Christian dioceses west of the Province of Dalmatia (today’s Croatia).
By the time of Saint Gregory’s death, 90% of all dioceses in the West proclaimed, believed, preached and practiced the submission to the authority of the Bishop of Rome.
(d) In the 6th century the west side of the Christian world (what used to be the West Roman Empire) had 20% of all Christian dioceses and the East (including Syria and Egypt) had 80%.
(e) In spite of the irrefutable truth concerning Rome as the unique Holy See, the dioceses in the East never joined this popularization process and never recognized the Bishop of Rome as the Supreme Pontiff.
(f) The fact that the “Unique and Supreme Pontificate” (by which the authority of each local bishop is under the preeminence of the authority of the Supreme Pontiff) only started in 590 AD and only reached the West, does not constitute any geographic nor historic “interval” for the validity of this unchangeable truth.
I believe that the word “popularize” solves the whole issue.
See if you agree with my statements below:
(a)The institution of the Bishop of Rome being the bishop over all bishop on the earth is revealed in the Word of God and in Apostle’s tradition and it is an indisputable truth and its validity has no “intervals” neither in time (before vs after 590 AD) nor in space (West Roman Empire vs East Roman Empire).
(b) Gregory the Great “popularized” this unchangeable truth by instituting the actual practice of having bishops and dioceses regarding the bishop of Rome as the Supreme Pontiff and submitting their local authority to the Bible supported preeminence of the authority of the Bishop of Rome.
(c ) Although being 100% supported by the Holy Scriptures and the Apostle’s Tradition, this authority model had not been practiced before and it started with the adherence by a few dioceses close to Rome. It spread through the Christian dioceses west of the Province of Dalmatia (today’s Croatia).
By the time of Saint Gregory’s death, 90% of all dioceses in the West proclaimed, believed, preached and practiced the submission to the authority of the Bishop of Rome.
(d) In the 6th century the west side of the Christian world (what used to be the West Roman Empire) had 20% of all Christian dioceses and the East (including Syria and Egypt) had 80%.
(e) In spite of the irrefutable truth concerning Rome as the unique Holy See, the dioceses in the East never joined this popularization process and never recognized the Bishop of Rome as the Supreme Pontiff.
(f) The fact that the “Unique and Supreme Pontificate” (by which the authority of each local bishop is under the preeminence of the authority of the Supreme Pontiff) only started in 590 AD and only reached the West, does not constitute any geographic nor historic “interval” for the validity of this unchangeable truth.
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