Matthew 2

[Marie_K]

Hello all,

I posted this twice on 1/2/06 but no response yet. I was just wondering if you could comment on the timing of the visit of the Magi to Bethlehem. It would appear from hints in the text that the Magi could have visited up to 2 years after the first appearance of the star.

Sincerely,

Marie K.

 

[TEME525]

Marie,
Hopefully this will help with your Thread. I think the answer lies in looking at time and distance. Here we would have to include the Gospel of Luke.
If we look at Luke and assume that the “Star” appeared at the moment of Jesus’ birth and it was at this time the Magi observed the start, then it probrably took them time first to gather more information about the possible meaning of the star’s appearence. Something like that didn’t happen over night but most likely took a good period of time.

Once they were able to determine there meaning of the star, that is the “King of Israel” was born, it would have taken an extended period logistically speaking, to organize a caravan to travel west, followed by the actual time it took to travel from where ever they were to Jerusalem.

Then using Matthew, if you knowtice that upon there arrival at Jerusalem they were met with shock and surprize by Herod and his court so it may be reasonable that the star was no longer around and its importance was either dismissed and or forgotten. But an important sign, such as a star was in ancient thought, wouldn’t be something soon forgotten so this presents more reasonable evidence that considerable time had passed.

And a final bit of a hint that some time had passed is the fact that the Magi didnot find the Holy Family dwelling in the stable but in a house. This also shows that there was a time difference between Christ’s birth and the arrival of the Magi. First, housing was available which indicates that the census was over. A census like the one that brought Mary and Joseph to Bethleham was not conducted over a short period of time. Second, to be living in a house there in Bethleham and not Nazarath meant Joesph had to have established himself in his trade and had been working there for a while, otherwise, it would seem logical for Joseph to bring his family back home to Nazarath. Again, I may be assuming too much but I think it would have taken Joseph a good period of time to establish himself in order to remain there.

I am sure you have noticed that I have been very general with my time frame, but that really is what I wanted to present, a general time frame in order to show that a 2 year period is not an unreasonable belief.

 

[NotWorthy]

TEME525:

I am sure you have noticed that I have been very general with my time frame, but that really is what I wanted to present, a general time frame in order to show that a 2 year period is not an unreasonable belief.

Herod had every child under 2 years of age, killed. This would indicate that some time had passed, as well - obviously no more than two years.

One note, could the Star have appeared at the moment of conception, instead of His birth? I don’t know, just wondering.

Notworthy

 

[TEME525]

Notworthy,
Your point about Herod is probrably the strongest peice of evidence for there being a two year gap between Christ’s birth and the arrival of the Magi, I completely overlooked that so thanks for pointing this out.

As for the star appearing at the moment of conception, I would say no. I say this because it was the accepted understanding at the time that such important signs such as the sudden appearence of a star, occured at the time of birth. I have to look it up but I think there maybe examples from the OT of impoertant sign appearing but at the time of birth not conception.

 

[DaveBj]

On the minimum end of the range, it had to be at least 40 days after the Nativity, because that’s when the Presentation in the Temple took place, so they hadn’t left for Egypt at that point. So–anywhere from 40 days to 2 years. Probably less than 2 years, 'cause Herod probably exaggerated to be on the safe side.

DaveBj

 

[TEME525]

Dave,
That is another good point you made and I think gives us the most reasonable time frame to work from if we are looking at the Magi’s arrival not happening on Christmas itself but some time afterwards.

 

[Grandsmoor]

You know I was listening to the account of the Magi in the gospel of Matthew this past Sunday and I think that this is a way for Matthew to tell his community of Jewish believers that Jesus is the Light that the Gentiles were seeking in their quest for truth. I mean I think the slaughter of the Innocents is true. So I think that astrologers did come to Herod seeking the King of the Jews. But I don’t think that they ever found the baby Jesus with his parents in Bethlehem. I mean Bethlehem was a very short way from Jerusalem. How could a star travel this short distance and stay over a stable? So, I think that after the crucifixion and ressurrection of Jesus that the astrologers heard about it and then connected Jesus with The King of the Jews that they were looking for in their following the star back at the time he was born. Then when they realized that Jesus was the King they brought their gifts to Matthew’s community in honor of the King whose star they had followed seeking the King. He is Our Lord Really Present in the Eucharist.

 

[thistle]

Grandsmoor:

You know I was listening to the account of the Magi in the gospel of Matthew this past Sunday and I think that this is a way for Matthew to tell his community of Jewish believers that Jesus is the Light that the Gentiles were seeking in their quest for truth. I mean I think the slaughter of the Innocents is true. So I think that astrologers did come to Herod seeking the King of the Jews. ** But I don’t think that they ever found the baby Jesus with his parents in Bethlehem. ** I mean Bethlehem was a very short way from Jerusalem. How could a star travel this short distance and stay over a stable? So, I think that after the crucifixion and ressurrection of Jesus that the astrologers heard about it and then connected Jesus with The King of the Jews that they were looking for in their following the star back at the time he was born. Then when they realized that Jesus was the King they brought their gifts to Matthew’s community in honor of the King whose star they had followed seeking the King. He is Our Lord Really Present in the Eucharist.

In Matthew it says Herod sent them to Bethlehem. They followed the star and where it stopped they “and on entering the house they saw the child with Mary his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage” (Matt 2:11).
Why do you think they didn’t see Jesus when scripture tells us clear and unambiguously that they did?

 

[puzzleannie]

our priest had a great sermon on the whole topic of the magi, the star etc. His point was that modern bible scholarship often begins by trying to debunk the actual gospel account, and searching for science to back them up. He pointed out how improved science in astronomy, physics, archeology and even looking back at early biblical translations to uncover and correct errors, has worked to prove or support biblical accounts that were formerly doubted. For instance, archeological support for the existence of the biblical Joseph, Moses and David have recently been discovered.

He pointed out the series of errors, miscalculations that led to the theory of a much earlier date for the birth of Jesus and the visit of the Magi than infancy narratives imply. our improvedmodern math and computer abilities make the complex calculations necessary to track past astronomical events now make it possible to look at early astronomical records and make determinations more precisely.

Too long to go into here, but basically there are astronomical events recorded in history of several civilazations that could be the “star”. Also if the magi were followers of Zoroaster, they believed the Unseen one true God could reveal Himself and his designs in the stars. Not that the stars could be used to predict the future (and those predictions used for gain of power) but that God’s plan and workings could be read in the stars, and in natural phenomena.

the astronomical event could actually have occurred before the birth of Christ, led the magi to look for it and for the newborn king indicated by the interpretation of the event. they could have been “following the star” until it came to rest in Bethlehem at or shortly after the actual birth of the infant.
Equally possible, the astronomical event - conjunction of planets, whatever – could have occurred at the time of the birth, and in “following the star” the natural motion of the earth and planets could have made it appear that the “star” came to rest over Bethlehem.