Matthew 24:34

[Jabronie]

After describing the end times, Jesus say this:

“Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.” (ASV)

I have a preterist friend who thinks that this “proves” that the second coming happened in the year AD 70. So, I’m curious as to what this verse actualy means. Thanks!

 

[Cachonga]

You should read all of Matthew 24. The Apostles actually asked 2 questions (this after Jesus tells them that “not one stone will be left upon another” (see verse 2). The first question dealt with the destruction of the Temple. The second question dealt with the “sign of His coming, and the end of the world”. Obviously, the world did not end in 70 AD. The generation spoken of in verse 34 is the generation that witnesses the signs spoken of (all of which we have witnessed in some form or other). To be sure, every generation has witnessed many of these things, and I’m not saying this is the “last” generation, I have heard that the fig tree spoken of in vese 32 is a figure of Isreal, which was destroyed in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple (as a nation). There was no nation of Israel from 70 AD until 1948 AD (I’d like to know how Jesus ruled for 1,000 years from the Temple in Jerusalem when it was destroyed in 70 AD). Is this the fig tree budding? I don’t know. Maybe the budding didn’t occur until they took control of Jerusalem in 1967, or when they made Jerusalem their capital, or it may not “bud” until they actually rebuild the next Temple. I don’t know, but I do know we are more than 1900 years closer to His return than Paul was.

There are a lot of questions I could ask a preterist that I don’t think they could answer based on Scripture (you should be able to get a lot of questions of your own from Rev 20.alone).

 

[Barryj12]

After describing the end times, Jesus say this:

“Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.” (ASV)

I have a preterist friend who thinks that this “proves” that the second coming happened in the year AD 70. So, I’m curious as to what this verse actualy means. Thanks!

If you read all of matthew 24 you will see that jesus is primarily speaking about the destruction of the jerusalem temple, when jesus says that the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from heaven, he is using old testament imagery (from isaiah 13:10, Joel 2:10 and ezekiel 32:7), to basically say ‘hey, wicked jerusalem, your time is up’, the sun, moon and stars were the only way to tell time, months seasons. also, the jews saw the temple as the world in miniature, a scale model of the cosmos, read 1 kings 6:23-29 you will see all kinds of creation imagery, not to mention that solomon’s temple was built in 7 years on the 7th day of the feast of booths.So it is possible that the destruction of the temple in 70 AD is in itself a prefigurement of the ‘end of the world’.

The persecutions, false christs etc are all described in the book of acts, this all happened before 70 AD.

When jesus speaks of himself ‘coming on the clouds’ he is alluding to daniel 7:13 and isaiah 19:1 to show us he is the son of man who will establish the church/kingdom/new israel to reunite the 12 tribes as 10 were scattered in 722 BC by Assyria. The cloud is a symbol of the holy spirit, the cloud led the israelites through the red sea (symolizing baptism) the cloud overshadowed blessed mary, and the cloud overshadowed the tabernacle and so on…

In the old covenant everything was earthly, the law, the kingdom, etc, (all due to the israelites rejection of god) they wanted a king to be like all the other nations, they worshipped golden calves etc so when they wanted all these earthly things god gave them what they wanted, but god always had a plan in mind and when the time had come he sent the saviour into the world to redeem all israel and reunite the 12 tribes through the new israel, the church!

this is why we have the eucharist foreshadowed in the feeding of the 5000 with 12 baskets left(symbolizing the 12 tribes), and the feeding of the 4000 with the 7 baskets left(symbolizing the world),

The fig tree is a symbol of old israel, read isaiah 5, jesus curses the fig tree in matt 21:18 and says ‘may no fruit ever come from you again’, once again jesus is basically saying, 'out with the old earthly israel and the old covenant and in with the new heavenly kingdom (the church, the new israel) and the new covenant, read jeremiah 31:31 and matthew 26:28.

I hope im making sense, and hope this helped.

Barry

 

[Coder]

“Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.” (ASV)

Hi,

Matthew 24:35: Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew24.htm

The phrase “pass away” is used again. Could Jesus be teaching that these things will happen before heaven and earth passes away? Is this is a clue that by “generation” he means the whole human race as the generation of Adam?

 

[ryanoneil]

You should read all of Matthew 24. The Apostles actually asked 2 questions (this after Jesus tells them that “not one stone will be left upon another” (see verse 2). The first question dealt with the destruction of the Temple. The second question dealt with the “sign of His coming, and the end of the world”. Obviously, the world did not end in 70 AD.

The disciples are asking about the “close of the age.” The Old Covenant age terminated with Jerusalem’s destruction. The coming clouds are a sign of divine judgment. The end of the age is a prefigurement of the end of time itself.

The generation spoken of in verse 34 is the generation that witnesses the signs spoken of (all of which we have witnessed in some form or other).

Jesus was speaking to the generation that was listening to him. He was talking about the OT era giving way to the NT age. A prefigurement of things to come.

To be sure, every generation has witnessed many of these things, and I’m not saying this is the “last” generation, I have heard that the fig tree spoken of in vese 32 is a figure of Isreal, which was destroyed in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple (as a nation). There was no nation of Israel from 70 AD until 1948 AD (I’d like to know how Jesus ruled for 1,000 years from the Temple in Jerusalem when it was destroyed in 70 AD).

You are making the same mistake many of Jesus’ contemporaries made. The thousand year earthly reign is a myth.

**Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews said, “This temple has been under construction for forty-six years, and you will raise it up in three days?” But he was speaking about the temple of his body. (Jn 2:19-21)

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews ; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” (Jn 18:36)

but they found none, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two came forward who stated, “This man said, ‘I can destroy the temple of God and within three days rebuild it.’” The high priest rose and addressed him, “Have you no answer? What are these men testifying against you?” But Jesus was silent. Then the high priest said to him, “I order you to tell us under oath before the living God whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so. But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’” (Mt 26:60-64)

The main point of what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle that the Lord, not man, set up. (Heb 8:1-2) **

The 1,000 years is now and Jesus reigns from the Temple in the heavenly Jerusalem. He will bring the new heaven and the new earth when he returns, and time will give way to eternity.

 

[ryanoneil]

Hi,

Matthew 24:35: Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew24.htm

The phrase “pass away” is used again. Could Jesus be teaching that these things will happen before heaven and earth passes away? Is this is a clue that by “generation” he means the whole human race as the generation of Adam?

He is talking to his generation. But, there is a close connection between the termination of the Old Covenant era and the end of the the visible world. As mentioned the Temple was an architectural symbol of the world and universe. Just as signs of chaos and catastrophe precede the collapse of the Old age and the coming of Christ’s Kingdom, so similair signs are expected before the final days of the New age and Christ’s Second Coming in glory.

 

[ryanoneil]

I hope im making sense, and hope this helped.

Barry

Good post!
In addition, images of cosmic catastrophes predict the downfall of pagan kingdoms in the OT (Is 13:9-10; 34:4; Ezek 32:7-8; Joel 2:10; Amos 8:9). Jesus redirects this language toward Jerusalem: the kingdom of Old Covenant Israel will be devastated for corrupting itself like the pagans and rejecting Jesus.

 

[Cachonga]

Sounds to me like ryanoneil and Barryj12 are defending the preterist viewpoint. I will admit that I am not infallible, and my explanation is definitely not infallible. I will also admit that I am not aware of what the “official” teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is on the subject. Perhaps ryanoneil or Barryj12 could give that information (or maybe we’re just getting their equally fallible opinion).

BTW - I noticed ryanoneil didn’t address Rev 20 at all in his dismissal of the 1,000 year reign.

 

[Coder]

Hi, I still wonder if the very next passage (Matthew 24:35) is an indication that Jesus was speaking on the level of all mankind. In fact could Jesus even have been clarifying? From what I know of Jesus I think that He is not concerned with details relating to specific groups and events in regards to a message unless as a parable. His messages and teachings are typically for all mankind. I think it may even be foolish to speculate that He was focused on a particular event that did not have a relation to the message of salvation for the entire human family. This is the context of Jesus mission. (This does not mean that He does not care about the details of our lives of course as every hair on our heads are counted. However, here we are speaking about a message and a teaching *).

Matthew 24:35: Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew24.htm*

 

[rdscheirer]

Dear Theologins that can interpret the Bible better than I can.

Did not Jesus command us to love God with all our heart, soul and mind; and to lovr your neighbor as yourself.

 

[ryanoneil]

Sounds to me like ryanoneil and Barryj12 are defending the preterist viewpoint. I will admit that I am not infallible, and my explanation is definitely not infallible. I will also admit that I am not aware of what the “official” teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is on the subject. Perhaps ryanoneil or Barryj12 could give that information (or maybe we’re just getting their equally fallible opinion).

BTW - I noticed ryanoneil didn’t address Rev 20 at all in his dismissal of the 1,000 year reign.

I’m not infallible either. I believe in partial preterism. Rev 1- 20:4 is in the history books. (Rev 21-22) are partially fulfilled in the Church, but the perfect will not come until Christ returns. Only time will tell if chapters 1-19 repeat during the final battle of (Rev 20:8-10). We are in the thousand years now and Christ is reigning from heaven. The first resurrection is going to heaven after our first death. Christ will return in glory at the end of the thousand years (on the last day). The second resurrection of everyone happens when the nations are judged. The second death is eternity in hell. Then comes the new heaven and the new earth (and the perfection of eternity).

The Catholic Church rejects a dispensationalist 1,000 year bodily reign of Christ on earth.

 

[Cachonga]

ryanoneil:

I’m not infallible either. I believe in partial preterism. Rev 1- 20:4 is in the history books. (Rev 21-22) are partially fulfilled in the Church, but the perfect will not come until Christ returns. Only time will tell if chapters 1-19 repeat during the final battle of (Rev 20:8-10). We are in the thousand years now and Christ is reigning from heaven. The first resurrection is going to heaven after our first death. Christ will return in glory at the end of the thousand years (on the last day). The second resurrection of everyone happens when the nations are judged. The second death is eternity in hell. Then comes the new heaven and the new earth (and the perfection of eternity).

OK, then perhaps you can tell me about the army of 200,000,000 (Rev 9:16), or who the two prophets were that were slain in Jerusalem, rejoiced over by the whole world, and were raised and taken up into heaven after 3 1/2 days, and when, exactly, did they preach for 3 1/2 years (as described in Rev 11)? And what about the destruction of Babylon (which cannot be Jerusalem, since it has been rebuilt and inhabited since it was destroyed in 70 AD). Since you claim these things already happened, then it shouldn’t be very difficult to provide reliable documentation.

The Catholic Church rejects a dispensationalist 1,000 year bodily reign of Christ on earth.

“Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years were ended. After that he must be loosed for a little while.” (Rev 20:1-3 RSV emphasis mine). Question - When was Satan bound for 1,000 years, and what evidence do you have to prove the nations were not deceived by him during this time?

“Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev 20:4 RSV emphasis mine). You claim that we are in the 1,000 years now and Christ is reigning in heaven. When, exactly, did this 1,000 year reign begin, and how do you know when it began?

 

[Big_Ro]

I’m not infallible either. I believe in partial preterism. Rev 1- 20:4 is in the history books. (Rev 21-22) are partially fulfilled in the Church, but the perfect will not come until Christ returns. Only time will tell if chapters 1-19 repeat during the final battle of (Rev 20:8-10). We are in the thousand years now and Christ is reigning from heaven. The first resurrection is going to heaven after our first death. Christ will return in glory at the end of the thousand years (on the last day). The second resurrection of everyone happens when the nations are judged. The second death is eternity in hell. Then comes the new heaven and the new earth (and the perfection of eternity).

The Catholic Church rejects a dispensationalist 1,000 year bodily reign of Christ on earth.

Amen brother. It goes a step further. Christ rules from his Throne in Heaven and with his earthly Bride, the Catholic Church. Deal with it.

 

[ryanoneil]

OK, then perhaps you can tell me about the army of 200,000,000 (Rev 9:16),

I don’t remember what the symbolism of “twice ten thousand times ten thousand” stands for. I will try to find it and get back to you. It is the Roman army coming to trample the holy city.

or who the two prophets were that were slain in Jerusalem, rejoiced over by the whole world, and were raised and taken up into heaven after 3 1/2 days, and when, exactly, did they preach for 3 1/2 years (as described in Rev 11)?

Symbolically they are Moses and Elijah. They represent the Church’s witness to Israel that the Law and Prophets bear witness to Christ. Their fate (martyrdom) symbolizes the rejection of the gospel by unbelieving Israel, and the Church’s dying and rising with Christ. There is also allusion to (Ezek 37:1-14) that OT dead Israel is restored in NT faithful Israel. The 3 1/2 years is the time of the Jewish-Roman war when the Lord’s judgment came to Israel.

And what about the destruction of Babylon (which cannot be Jerusalem, since it has been rebuilt and inhabited since it was destroyed in 70 AD). Since you claim these things already happened, then it shouldn’t be very difficult to provide reliable documentation.

There is plenty of evidence that Jerusalem is refered to as Babylon.

 

[ryanoneil]

“Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years were ended. After that he must be loosed for a little while.” (Rev 20:1-3 RSV emphasis mine). Question - When was Satan bound for 1,000 years, and what evidence do you have to prove the nations were not deceived by him during this time?

Satan was bound by the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus.

**When I caught sight of him, I fell down at his feet as though dead. He touched me with his right hand and said, "Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever and ever. I hold the keys to death and the netherworld. (Rev 1:17-18)

"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia, write this: " 'The holy one, the true, who holds the key of David, who opens and no one shall close, who closes and no one shall open, says this: (Rev 3:7)**

The 1,000 years is symbolic of the messianic age replacing the Davidic age. It is traced back to the period of the Davidic covenant, which was established almost exactly 1000 years before the coming of Christ. Jesus has the key of David. He has the royal and judicial power over life and death, which is the power to lock and unlock the gates of the underworld. The pit of the netherworld was believed to be sealed off by the foundation stone of Solomon’s Temple. The New foundation stone is Christ Jesus. The chain that prevents deception was the chain that hung in Solomon’s courtroom, which was used to verify the truthfulness of testimony given under oath. Jesus rules from the heavenly Temple. Jesus said he would bind Satan and over throw him, plundering his house of sinners held captive (Mt12:29; Mk 3:27; Lk 11:21). And the nations not being lead astray can refer to Satan’s inability to stop the spread of the gospel message. And Christ giving the Church a share in authority by giving them the keys.

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Mt 16:18-19)

The 1,000 years is symbolic of the New Testament Church age. It is the entire stretch of history between the First and Second Coming of Christ when He reigns in a spiritual and sacramental way through the Church. 10 symbolizes a complete number and the trinity (10x10x10) of time is completion of time. When Christ returns time will end and eternity will start.

 

[ryanoneil]

“Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev 20:4 RSV emphasis mine). You claim that we are in the 1,000 years now and Christ is reigning in heaven. When, exactly, did this 1,000 year reign begin, and how do you know when it began?

The 1,000 years began with Christ’s establishing the New Covenant, but there was a 40 year period of covenantal transition. These verses focus on the Old Covenant officially ending- when the Levitical priesthood ended, sacrifice stopped, and the Temple was destroyed. In other words, the end of the Old Covenant was a huge sign for the entire world that the New covenant had started.

When he speaks of a “new” covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing. (Heb 8:13)

That phrase, “once more,” points to (the) removal of shaken, created things, so that what is unshaken may remain. Therefore, we who are receiving the unshakable kingdom should have gratitude, with which we should offer worship pleasing to God in reverence and awe. (Heb 12:27-28)

The point here is that God is about to shake “the world” of the Old Covenant to the ground, so that only the unshakable kingdom of Christ will be left standing in the rubble.

**"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its desolation is at hand. Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. Let those within the city escape from it, and let those in the countryside not enter the city, for these days are the time of punishment when all the scriptures are fulfilled. (Lk 21:20-22)

Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Depart from her, my people, so as not to take part in her sins and receive a share in her plagues, for her sins are piled up to the sky, and God remembers her crimes. (Rev 18:4-5)**

**In her was found the blood of prophets and holy ones and all who have been slain on the earth." (Rev 18:24)

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate. (Mt 23:37-38)**