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Valke2
Guest
Generally, Hillel wins out.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
I Enoch 26
And I went from thence to the middle of the earth, and I saw a blessed place in which there were
trees with branches abiding and blooming [of a dismembered tree]. And there I saw a holy mountain,
and underneath the mountain to the east there was a stream and it flowed towards the south. And I saw towards the east another mountain higher than this, and between them a deep and narrow
ravine: in it also ran a stream underneath the mountain. And to the west thereof there was another mountain, lower than the former and of small elevation, and a ravine deep and dry between
them: and another deep and dry ravine was at the extremities of the three mountains. And all the ravines were deep rand narrow, (being formed) of hard rock, and trees were not planted upon
them. And I marveled at the rocks, and I marveled at the ravine, yea, I marveled very much.
XXVII. The Purpose of the Accursed Valley.
Then said I: 'For what object is this blessed land, which is entirely filled with trees, and this
accursed valley between?’ Then Uriel, one of the holy angels who was with me, answered and said: 'This accursed valley is for those who are accursed for ever: Here shall all the accursed be gathered together who utter with their lips against the Lord unseemly words and of His glory speak hard things. Here shall they be gathered together, and here
shall be their place of judgement. In the last days there shall be upon them the spectacle of righteous judgement in the presence of the righteous for ever: here shall the merciful bless the Lord of glory, the Eternal King.
In the days of judgement over the former, they shall bless Him for the mercy in accordance with
which He has assigned them (their lot).’ Then I blessed the Lord of Glory and set forth His glory and lauded Him gloriously.
CIII. Different Destinies of the Righteous and the Sinners: fresh Objections of the Sinners.
Now, therefore, I swear to you, the righteous, by the glory of the Great and Honoured and
Mighty One in dominion, and by His greatness I swear to you.
I know a mystery
And have read the heavenly tablets,
And have seen the holy books,
And have found written therein and inscribed regarding them:
That all goodness and joy and glory are prepared for them,
And written down for the spirits of those who have died in righteousness,
And that manifold good shall be given to you in recompense for your labours,
And that your lot is abundantly beyond the lot of the living.
And the spirits of you who have died in righteousness shall live and rejoice,
And their spirits shall not perish, nor their memorial from before the face of the Great One
Unto all the generations of the world: wherefore no longer fear their contumely.
Woe to you, ye sinners, when ye have died,
If ye die in the wealth of your sins,
And those who are like you say regarding you:
"Blessed are the sinners: they have seen all their days.
And how they have died in prosperity and in wealth,
And have not seen tribulation or murder in their life;
And they have died in honour,
And judgement has not been executed on them during their life."
Know ye, that their souls will be made to descend into Sheol
And they shall be wretched in their great tribulation.
And into darkness and chains and a burning flame where there is grievous judgement shall your spirits enter;
And the great judgement shall be for all the generations of the world.
Woe to you, for ye shall have no peace.
Say not in regard to the righteous and good who are in life:
"In our troubled days we have toiled laboriously and experienced every trouble,
And met with much evil and been consumed,
And have become few and our spirit small.
And we have been destroyed and have not found any to help us even with a word:
We have been tortured [and destroyed], and not hoped to see life from day to day.
We hoped to be the head and have become the tail:
We have toiled laboriously and had no satisfaction in our toil;
And we have become the food of the sinners and the unrighteous,
And they have laid their yoke heavily upon us.
They have had dominion over us that hated us and smote us;
And to those that hated us we have bowed our necks
But they pitied us not.
We desired to get away from them that we might escape and be at rest,
But found no place whereunto we should flee and be safe from them.
And are complained to the rulers in our tribulation,
And cried out against those who devoured us,
But they did not attend to our cries
And would not hearken to our voice.
And they helped those who robbed us and devoured us and those who made us few; and they concealed their oppression, and they did not remove from us the yoke of those that devoured us and dispersed us and murdered us, and they concealed their murder, and remembered not that they had lifted up their hands against us.
And I went from thence to the middle of the earth, and I saw a blessed place in which there were
trees with branches abiding and blooming [of a dismembered tree]. And there I saw a holy mountain,
and underneath the mountain to the east there was a stream and it flowed towards the south. And I saw towards the east another mountain higher than this, and between them a deep and narrow
ravine: in it also ran a stream underneath the mountain. And to the west thereof there was another mountain, lower than the former and of small elevation, and a ravine deep and dry between
them: and another deep and dry ravine was at the extremities of the three mountains. And all the ravines were deep rand narrow, (being formed) of hard rock, and trees were not planted upon
them. And I marveled at the rocks, and I marveled at the ravine, yea, I marveled very much.
XXVII. The Purpose of the Accursed Valley.
Then said I: 'For what object is this blessed land, which is entirely filled with trees, and this
accursed valley between?’ Then Uriel, one of the holy angels who was with me, answered and said: 'This accursed valley is for those who are accursed for ever: Here shall all the accursed be gathered together who utter with their lips against the Lord unseemly words and of His glory speak hard things. Here shall they be gathered together, and here
shall be their place of judgement. In the last days there shall be upon them the spectacle of righteous judgement in the presence of the righteous for ever: here shall the merciful bless the Lord of glory, the Eternal King.
In the days of judgement over the former, they shall bless Him for the mercy in accordance with
which He has assigned them (their lot).’ Then I blessed the Lord of Glory and set forth His glory and lauded Him gloriously.
CIII. Different Destinies of the Righteous and the Sinners: fresh Objections of the Sinners.
Now, therefore, I swear to you, the righteous, by the glory of the Great and Honoured and
Mighty One in dominion, and by His greatness I swear to you.
I know a mystery
And have read the heavenly tablets,
And have seen the holy books,
And have found written therein and inscribed regarding them:
That all goodness and joy and glory are prepared for them,
And written down for the spirits of those who have died in righteousness,
And that manifold good shall be given to you in recompense for your labours,
And that your lot is abundantly beyond the lot of the living.
And the spirits of you who have died in righteousness shall live and rejoice,
And their spirits shall not perish, nor their memorial from before the face of the Great One
Unto all the generations of the world: wherefore no longer fear their contumely.
Woe to you, ye sinners, when ye have died,
If ye die in the wealth of your sins,
And those who are like you say regarding you:
"Blessed are the sinners: they have seen all their days.
And how they have died in prosperity and in wealth,
And have not seen tribulation or murder in their life;
And they have died in honour,
And judgement has not been executed on them during their life."
Know ye, that their souls will be made to descend into Sheol
And they shall be wretched in their great tribulation.
And into darkness and chains and a burning flame where there is grievous judgement shall your spirits enter;
And the great judgement shall be for all the generations of the world.
Woe to you, for ye shall have no peace.
Say not in regard to the righteous and good who are in life:
"In our troubled days we have toiled laboriously and experienced every trouble,
And met with much evil and been consumed,
And have become few and our spirit small.
And we have been destroyed and have not found any to help us even with a word:
We have been tortured [and destroyed], and not hoped to see life from day to day.
We hoped to be the head and have become the tail:
We have toiled laboriously and had no satisfaction in our toil;
And we have become the food of the sinners and the unrighteous,
And they have laid their yoke heavily upon us.
They have had dominion over us that hated us and smote us;
And to those that hated us we have bowed our necks
But they pitied us not.
We desired to get away from them that we might escape and be at rest,
But found no place whereunto we should flee and be safe from them.
And are complained to the rulers in our tribulation,
And cried out against those who devoured us,
But they did not attend to our cries
And would not hearken to our voice.
And they helped those who robbed us and devoured us and those who made us few; and they concealed their oppression, and they did not remove from us the yoke of those that devoured us and dispersed us and murdered us, and they concealed their murder, and remembered not that they had lifted up their hands against us.
D
Daniel_Marsh
Guest
CIV. Assurances given to the Righteous: Admonitions to Sinners and the Falsifiers of the Words of Uprightness.
104
1
I swear unto you, that in heaven the angelsremember you for good before the glory of the Great
2
One: and your names are written before the glory of the Great One. Be hopeful; for aforetime ye were put to shame through ill and affliction; but now ye shall shine as the lights of heaven,
3
ye shall shine and ye shall be seen, and the portals of heaven shall be opened to you. And in your cry, cry for judgement, and it shall appear to you; for all your tribulation shall be visited on the
4
rulers, and on all who helped those who plundered you. Be hopeful, and cast not away your hope;
5
for ye shall have great joy as the angels of heaven. What shall ye be obliged to do? Ye shall not have to hide on the day of the great judgement and ye shall not be found as sinners, and the eternal
6
judgement shall be far from you for all the generations of the world. And now fear not, ye righteous, when ye see the sinners growing strong and prospering in their ways: be not companions with them,
7
but keep afar from their violence; for ye shall become companions of the hosts of heaven. And, although ye sinners say: “All our sins shall not be searched out and be written down,” nevertheless
8
they shall write down all your sins every day. And now I show unto you that light and darkness,
9
day and night, see all your sins. Be not godless in your hearts, and lie not and alter not the words of uprightness, nor charge with lying the words of the Holy Great One, nor take account of your
10
idols; for all your lying and all your godlessness issue not in righteousness but in great sin. And now I know this mystery, that sinners will alter and pervert the words of righteousness in many ways, and will speak wicked words, and lie, and practice great deceits, and write books concerning
11
their words. But when they write down truthfully all my words in their languages, and do not change or minish ought from my words but write them all down truthfully -all that I first testified
12
concerning them. Then, I know another mystery, that books will be given to the righteous and the
13
wise to become a cause of joy and uprightness and much wisdom. And to them shall the books be given, and they shall believe in them and rejoice over them, and then shall all the righteous who have learnt therefrom all the paths of uprightness be recompensed.’
104
1
I swear unto you, that in heaven the angelsremember you for good before the glory of the Great
2
One: and your names are written before the glory of the Great One. Be hopeful; for aforetime ye were put to shame through ill and affliction; but now ye shall shine as the lights of heaven,
3
ye shall shine and ye shall be seen, and the portals of heaven shall be opened to you. And in your cry, cry for judgement, and it shall appear to you; for all your tribulation shall be visited on the
4
rulers, and on all who helped those who plundered you. Be hopeful, and cast not away your hope;
5
for ye shall have great joy as the angels of heaven. What shall ye be obliged to do? Ye shall not have to hide on the day of the great judgement and ye shall not be found as sinners, and the eternal
6
judgement shall be far from you for all the generations of the world. And now fear not, ye righteous, when ye see the sinners growing strong and prospering in their ways: be not companions with them,
7
but keep afar from their violence; for ye shall become companions of the hosts of heaven. And, although ye sinners say: “All our sins shall not be searched out and be written down,” nevertheless
8
they shall write down all your sins every day. And now I show unto you that light and darkness,
9
day and night, see all your sins. Be not godless in your hearts, and lie not and alter not the words of uprightness, nor charge with lying the words of the Holy Great One, nor take account of your
10
idols; for all your lying and all your godlessness issue not in righteousness but in great sin. And now I know this mystery, that sinners will alter and pervert the words of righteousness in many ways, and will speak wicked words, and lie, and practice great deceits, and write books concerning
11
their words. But when they write down truthfully all my words in their languages, and do not change or minish ought from my words but write them all down truthfully -all that I first testified
12
concerning them. Then, I know another mystery, that books will be given to the righteous and the
13
wise to become a cause of joy and uprightness and much wisdom. And to them shall the books be given, and they shall believe in them and rejoice over them, and then shall all the righteous who have learnt therefrom all the paths of uprightness be recompensed.’
D
deb1
Guest
it sounds a bit like purgatory to me.
D
Daniel_Marsh
Guest
yep, and it is also universualism too.
The I enoch texts do not support pugatrory.
The I enoch texts do not support pugatrory.
D
Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Where did Jesus teach about purgatory?
D
Daniel_Marsh
Guest
anyone?
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