Matthew 25 Sheep and Goats. What if?

[NotWorthy]

Basically, my point was that we’re saved by grace through faith as Eph 2:8-9 says and not works. Works are important evidences of true, saving faith and they’ll be judged. But, no one is going to heaven based solely on what they did because that would make the cross unnecessary. Notice also that Jesus calls the sheep righteous. If you want to know what the bible says on a topic, don’t look at the catechism… let scripture interpret scripture as you look at other places that talk about the same thing. I recommend Romans 4 since Paul explains how someone’s faith is accounted as righteousness and about imputed righteousness. I used John 3:16 because it clearly says “that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” As you can see, and if you want to read all the context go ahead, that He doesn’t add any conditions to believing in Him.

To raise the argument that “you aren’t saved by your works” implies that this is what Catholics teach. We don’t. We are judged and rewarded by our actions (and inactions) but we don’t earn our way into heaven. The Catholic Church has never and will never teach that.

No, it isn’t.
1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.
Here’s the kicker: all those things are works. No one’s salvation is based on what they did, it’s based on what Jesus did. He lived the perfect life, which I can’t do, and He paid for all my sins on the cross. What can I do in addition to that? What else needs to be done? John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Then you are reading the Catechism wrong. The Sacraments are merely ways in which Christ gave His authority to bestow His Graces. (Yes, I know there’s much more than that, but for the sake of this argument).

And Jesus’ words, “It is Finished” are not meant to say we are done, there’s nothing more to add. We must participate in His Death in order to share in His Resurrection. Instead of it being finished, when we are baptized, we have only just begun.

And no, Jesus wasn’t wrong…
So?

Properly interpreted the bible has no contradictions.
No, I don’t, see above for good works discussion.

Properly interpreted. That’s the key.

I’ve run across some gung-ho bible scholars who, when they see a perceived conflict in what Paul says and what Jesus says, they weigh Jesus’ words in the light of Paul’s. The opposite should always be the case.

And regarding your last comment, do you say that Paul never preaches that we are judged on our good works? I’m a little confused by that statement of yours, “No, I don’t, see above for good works discussion”.

 

[Xenos8]

To raise the argument that “you aren’t saved by your works” implies that this is what Catholics teach. We don’t.

So what would happen if you stopped going to mass?

The Sacraments are merely ways in which Christ gave His authority to bestow His Graces.

So you have to do something in order to get a “Grace”? Isn’t grace a free gift?

And regarding your last comment, do you say that Paul never preaches that we are judged on our good works?

I Cor 3:9-15 Believers are judged and rewarded for works. But even if all their works are burned up they’re still saved. Salvation is not earned or maintained by works.

 

[NotWorthy]

So what would happen if you stopped going to mass?

Good Lord, I don’t even want to think about it!!! It would leave me empty, both emotionally and spiritually.

You don’t understand what you are asking when you ask me that, Xenos.

So you have to do something in order to get a “Grace”? Isn’t grace a free gift?

Graces are in abundance. Some graces are free gifts. Some graces are showered in excess for our cooperating in those original graces. Think of the Parable of the Talents, my friend.

But we don’t deserve those Graces, or earn them. They are God’s loving response to a child who pleases Him. Don’t you reward your child for doing something, even though he may have to do it?

I Cor 3:9-15 Believers are judged and rewarded for works. But even if all their works are burned up they’re still saved. Salvation is not earned or maintained by works.

Salvation is not earned. But do you realize you are describing Purgatory with 1 Corinthians, my brother?

Is Salvation maintained by works? Well, Faith without works is dead. So you answer that one.

 

[jcrichton]

Basically, my point was that we’re saved by grace through faith as Eph 2:8-9 says and not works. Works are important evidences of true, saving faith and they’ll be judged. But, no one is going to heaven based solely on what they did because that would make the cross unnecessary. Notice also that Jesus calls the sheep righteous. If you want to know what the bible says on a topic, don’t look at the catechism… let scripture interpret scripture as you look at other places that talk about the same thing. I recommend Romans 4 since Paul explains how someone’s faith is accounted as righteousness and about imputed righteousness. I used John 3:16 because it clearly says “that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” As you can see, and if you want to read all the context go ahead, that He doesn’t add any conditions to believing in Him.

Yet, when man lets the Holy Scriptures interpret the Holy Scriptures he is basing his understanding on his own/his affiliation’s preconceptions…

Christ established the Church to bring us into the fullness of Truth (the Church is the pillar and support of Truth); Christ Himself tells us that not even “spiritual” abilites guarantees our Salvation; He rejects those whose actions were devoid of Love; He is quick to explain that their failure is due to their lack of charity towards humanity: they observed the letter of the Law (the Believers will…) but they refused to humble themselves to Christ by serving their fellow man, in Chirst’s Love.

His Words are choice “…only those who do the Will of my Father…” Are the Jehovah Witnesses doing the Will of Yahweh God when they reject the Creator and confine Him to a rank just a little higher than an angel?

The problem with the non-Catholic “Faith” theology is that it divorces every single Scripture which articulates that there are mandates on our Salvation which go far beyond the claim of “Faith” or “Believe.”

Jesus explains it this way:

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command… 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me… 23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching… 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me… 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. (St. John 14:15-27; condensed)

1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. 9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other. (St. John 15:1-17)

Our “Faith” cannot be an empty claim or gesture; we must remain in Jesus (action) in order to prove through our works (action) that we mean what we say (claim).

1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.
Here’s the kicker: all those things are works. No one’s salvation is based on what they did, it’s based on what Jesus did. He lived the perfect life, which I can’t do, and He paid for all my sins on the cross. What can I do in addition to that? What else needs to be done? John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

…you must not be reading the Scriptures too closely… Scriptures tells us that it is good to believe in God; but it warns that the devil (demons) also believes and trembles… there’s no Salvation there!

The Jews believe in Yahweh God… but they used “Scritpures to interpret Scriptures” and they rejected the Corner Stone!

Do you recall Genesis’ story of Creation, when it speaks of Yahweh God resting?.. yet does not Jesus tell the Jews (Pharisees, Sadducees, etc.) that He Works because His Father is Working still?

…and what about St. Paul, does he have it wrong when he speaks about adding to Jesus’ sufferings through his own?

…and how is it that we celebrate His death and resurrection till He comes when we "eat the Bread and drink the Wine?

…“Faith” alone seems to be finding itself all alone, does it not?

Maran atha!

Angel