Matthew 27:46 and Islam

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I watched a utube clip youtube.com/watch?v=3OuB9HhSTVY Where an Islamic panel member questioned Jesus death on the cross based on (Matthew 27:46)

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”

To paraphase his words he said: Jesus wouldn’t have said that because it’s blasphemy.

So my question to both sides is why do you think Matthew 27:46 IS or IS NOT blasphemy?
 
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ryanoneil:
So my question to both sides is why do you think Matthew 27:46 IS or IS NOT blasphemy?
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Is not.

Jesus is fulfilling Messianic prophesy here. (cf Ps 22:2a) There are volumes written on this. Could this be the moment when Sin was placed on His shoulders? If so then would not this be the first (and only) experience of separation the Son had from the Father? “The Father and I are one” not with Sin in the way.

When we as humans face our own pain of loss and separation we can focus on Christ abandoned and know that He went through it in a real way. We will be victorious over it because He is victorious over it.

Jesus did not sin. Blasphemy is a pretty big sin.
 
When Jesus said “why have you forsaken me”; the meaning is not that the hypostatical union with the Father was dissolved, which couldn’t even by death itself. The fullness of the Godhead still dwelt bodily in him. It wasn’t because he was separated from the love of God. He had the same interest in his Father’s heart and favour, both as his Son, and as mediator, as ever. It wasn’t because the joy and comfort was lost in his soul, as man. But he was now without a sense of the gracious presence of God, and was filled with a sense of divine wrath.

It was our iniquities he now bore, and which was necessary for him to endure, in order to make full satisfaction for them. One part of the punishment of sin is loss of the divine presence. He knew the reason he said “why have you forsaken me”, and that it was not out of personal disrespect to the Father, or for any sin of his own, or because he was not a righteous, but because he stood in the legal place, in the place of sinners. He said this because he was entirely resigned to the will of God, and content to drink the whole of the bitter cup. He doesn’t say it out of despair; for he at the same time strongly claims and asserts his interest in God, and repeats it. He says it to show, that he bore all the griefs of his people, and the divine desertion.

Tell me if I’m wrong.
 
ryanoneil said:
I watched a utube clip youtube.com/watch?v=3OuB9HhSTVY Where an Islamic panel member questioned Jesus death on the cross based on (Matthew 27:46)

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”

To paraphase his words he said: Jesus wouldn’t have said that because it’s blasphemy.

So my question to both sides is why do you think Matthew 27:46 IS or IS NOT blasphemy?
Click to expand...
Laudatur Iesus Christus.

It is not blasphemy because it is the way that God has taught us to pray:

Psalm 21

1Unto the end, for the morning protection, a psalm for David.

2O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins.

3O my God, I shall cry by day, and thou wilt not hear: and by night, and it shall not be reputed as folly in me.

4But thou dwellest in the holy place, the praise of Israel.

5In thee have our fathers hoped: they have hoped, and thou hast delivered them.

6They cried to thee, and they were saved: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

7But I am a worm, and no man: the reproach of men, and the outcast of the people.

8All they that saw me have laughed me to scorn: they have spoken with the lips, and wagged the head.

9He hoped in the Lord, let him deliver him: let him save him, seeing he delighteth in him.

10For thou art he that hast drawn me out of the womb: my hope from the breasts of my mother.

11I was cast upon thee from the womb. From my mother’s womb thou art my God,

12depart not from me. For tribulation is very near: for there is none to help me.

13Many calves have surrounded me: fat bulls have besieged me.

14They have opened their mouths against me, as a lion ravening and roaring.

15I am poured out like water; and all my bones are scattered. My heart is become like wax melting in the midst of my bowels.

16My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue hath cleaved to my jaws: and thou hast brought me down into the dust of death.

17For many dogs have encompassed me: the council of the malignant hath besieged me. They have dug my hands and feet.

18They have numbered all my bones. And they have looked and stared upon me.

19They parted my garments amongst them; and upon my vesture they cast lots.

20But thou, O Lord, remove not thy help to a distance from me; look towards my defence.

21Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword: my only one from the hand of the dog.

22Save me from the lion’s mouth; and my lowness from the horns of the unicorns.

23I will declare thy name to my brethren: in the midst of the church will I praise thee.

24Ye that fear the Lord, praise him: all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him.

25Let all the seed of Israel fear him: because he hath not slighted nor despised the supplication of the poor man. Neither hath he turned away his face from me: and when I cried to him he heard me.

26With thee is my praise in a great church: I will pay my vows in the sight of them that fear him.

27The poor shall eat and shall be filled: and they shall praise the Lord that seek him: their hearts shall live for ever and ever.

28All the ends of the earth shall remember, and shall be converted to the Lord: And all the kindreds of the Gentiles shall adore in his sight.

29For the kingdom is the Lord’s; and he shall have dominion over the nations.

30All the fat ones of the earth have eaten and have adored: all they that go down to the earth shall fall before him.

31And to him my soul shall live: and my seed shall serve him.

32There shall be declared to the Lord a generation to come: and the heavens shall shew forth his justice to a people that shall be born, which the Lord hath made.

(Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.)

Read in the context of this Psalm, especially considering the details of the pierced hands and feet, the divided garments, with lots cast, etc., Jesus’ cry amounts to a declaration that He is the Messiah.

To the Muslims this may seem to be “blasphemy” but it is not so.

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
A far more pertinent question for Christians is:

Someone who would utter those words at that particular moment and situation would surely have no clue at all that he would be the blood atonement for the sins of humankind, would he?
 
hamba2han said:
A far more pertinent question for Christians is:

Someone who would utter those words at that particular moment and situation would surely have no clue at all that he would be the blood atonement for the sins of humankind, would he?
Click to expand...
That’s exactly what the poster above you was talking about. In that time, the Scriptures were memorized by all, in their entirity. By quoting that line of the Psalm, Jesus knew that the Jews standing there would understand his meaning. He was giving his Father the glory. Read especially verses 29 through 32. By directing them to recall that Psalm’s beginning, he’s pointing to them the ending. His soul will live for the Lord. He’s letting them know that all will be well.
 
Is it against Catholic theology to believe that Christ did, in some sense, experience a kind of separation from the Father on our behalf?

This is how I always interpreted this passage. In order for Christ to truly and fully unite Himself to the sinful condition of humankind he had to actually experience the feeling of being forsaken that we have all experienced in the midst of our own sins.

Is that considered heretical?
 
Chronister4673 said:
That’s exactly what the poster above you was talking about. In that time, the Scriptures were memorized by all, in their entirity. By quoting that line of the Psalm, Jesus knew that the Jews standing there would understand his meaning. He was giving his Father the glory. Read especially verses 29 through 32. By directing them to recall that Psalm’s beginning, he’s pointing to them the ending. His soul will live for the Lord. He’s letting them know that all will be well.
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But why not simply quote the portion of the Psalm that says all will be well?
 
Jordan_Francis said:
Is it against Catholic theology to believe that Christ did, in some sense, experience a kind of separation from the Father on our behalf?

This is how I always interpreted this passage. In order for Christ to truly and fully **unite Himself to the sinful condition of humankind he had to **actually experience the feeling of being forsaken that we have all experienced in the midst of our own sins.

Is that considered heretical?
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I hope not because I share a similar view. I think the writer of the Psalm was inspired by God with the passion to write such poetry long before it was experienced by God in the flesh to utter it as if it were the first time heard by men. I think it was more than just repeating it. For us it is prophecy fullfilled, but for Jesus though He knew it, He lived (died by) it.

I don’t know if I’d describe it as the bolded above but it could be so. It is difficult to describe with few or many words. Few is better.
 
Jordan_Francis said:
Is it against Catholic theology to believe that Christ did, in some sense, experience a kind of separation from the Father on our behalf?

This is how I always interpreted this passage. In order for Christ to truly and fully unite Himself to the sinful condition of humankind he had to actually experience the feeling of being forsaken that we have all experienced in the midst of our own sins.

Is that considered heretical?
Click to expand...
Hardly. I think it is the standard Church interpretation from the beginning.

If Jesus, even having the divine fore-knowledge of the resurrection, did not still suffer the pain of feeling abandoned that a human in such a situation or more generally as part of being a human in the fallen state, then what “self-sacrifice” would there have been? What Incarnation could there genuinely have been?

Jesus took on the physical torture of the crucifixion as a human would suffer it, how could he not also take on the emotional or psychological torture a human would suffer from it?

Sin is alienation from God and that alienation leads us to feel abandoned even when in truth God does not abandon us, yet Jesus accepted even that ultimate feeling of alienation – in order among other things to teach us what sin really and terribly is.

In abandoning Himself to this feeling of being abandoned, Jesus most completely took on the “form of the slave,” humbled Himself so utterly to deliver humankind from sin, which stems first of all and above of all from the opposite of humility, pride.

So great is God’s love for us!
 
hamba2han said:
A far more pertinent question for Christians is:

Someone who would utter those words at that particular moment and situation would surely have no clue at all that he would be the blood atonement for the sins of humankind, would he?
Click to expand...
Jesus was showing those around that he was then at that time fulfilling prophecy as per the Psalms.

Have a look at *Christ in the Psalms *by Patrick Henry Reardon
 
nonsumd said:
Hardly. I think it is the standard Church interpretation from the beginning.

If Jesus, even having the divine fore-knowledge of the resurrection, did not still suffer the pain of feeling abandoned that a human in such a situation or more generally as part of being a human in the fallen state, then what “self-sacrifice” would there have been? What Incarnation could there genuinely have been?
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then you’re arguing that Jesus felt abandoned by himself - for Jesus is God.
nonsumd said:
Jesus took on the physical torture of the crucifixion as a human would suffer it, how could he not also take on the emotional or psychological torture a human would suffer from it?
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Because he *felt *it! 😛
nonsumd said:
Sin is alienation from God and that alienation leads us to feel abandoned even when in truth God does not abandon us, yet Jesus accepted even that ultimate feeling of alienation – in order among other things to teach us what sin really and terribly is.
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And as Jesus never sinned how did he feel alieanted from God, who is Himself?
 
Hi

Jesus had prayed to GodAllahYHWH to save his life for so many days as is recorded in the NTBible as Jesus suppliments at Gethesmane, he was a righteous person and he knew that GodAllahYHWH has accepted his prayers and he won’t get killed on Cross a cursed death. Jesus was confident of Allah’s help. He did not know how Allah would save him. He did not know the secret planning of Pilate to save him. He spoke these words calling Allah to save him as He has promised him.

Visualize how happy and thankful to Allah, Jesus would have been when he gained first time consciousness in the tomb from near-dead position. Allah had tried him and he was successful in the trial. GodAllahYHWH is the greatest , no doubt about it.

This is what I think, others could think differently, no compulsion.

Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

Jesus had prayed to GodAllahYHWH to save his life for so many days as is recorded in the NTBible as Jesus suppliments at Gethesmane, he was a righteous person and he knew that GodAllahYHWH has accepted his prayers and he won’t get killed on Cross a cursed death. Jesus was confident of Allah’s help. He did not know how Allah would save him. He did not know the secret planning of Pilate to save him. He spoke these words calling Allah to save him as He has promised him.

Visualize how happy and thankful to Allah, Jesus would have been when he gained first time consciousness in the tomb from near-dead position. Allah had tried him and he was successful in the trial. GodAllahYHWH is the greatest , no doubt about it.

This is what I think, others could think differently, no compulsion.

Thanks
Click to expand...
Yes, God is the greatest, he sacrificed his son for us, who did die on the cross.
 
ryanoneil said:
I watched a utube clip youtube.com/watch?v=3OuB9HhSTVY Where an Islamic panel member questioned Jesus death on the cross based on (Matthew 27:46)

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”

To paraphase his words he said: Jesus wouldn’t have said that because it’s blasphemy.

So my question to both sides is why do you think Matthew 27:46 IS or IS NOT blasphemy?
Click to expand...
Jesus talking to his Father while in grotesque agony is blasphemy? Blasphemy would be denying the Son of God, Jesus Christ.:knight1:
 
dolphinlove said:
Yes, God is the greatest, he sacrificed his son for us, who did die on the cross.
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Instead, Moslems believe their god tricked people into believing Jesus died

He *made it appear to them *that Jesus had died.
 
Montalban said:
Instead, Moslems believe their god tricked people into believing Jesus died

He *made it appear to them *that Jesus had died.
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Yes i know, which would make God a deceiver, and I dont think the Christian God would ever have it in him to deceive us, he loves us too much.
 
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