Matthew 28:19--physical or just spiritual baptism?

[timeandeternity]

I was recently having a discussion about Baptism and its necessity for salvation with a Protestant friend, and he claimed that the baptism mentioned by Jesus in Mat 28:19 is probably referring to a spiritual baptism “*into *the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” He is of the belief that physical baptism is not necessary for salvation, mainly because he doesn’t think “baptism” refers to something physical in the NT. I told him I would like to do research about the etymology of the word baptism, and the sense to which it is referred to in this and similar passages, before answering him. I found the etymology of “baptism” here: newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#II However, I need some help showing him how to determine in which passages baptism is used in the symbolic sense, and in which it is meant to be a literal washing, intimately connected with the reception of saving grace and of the Holy Spirit. I’m ordering a Catholic Bible commentary, but would like to be able to get back to him asap–so if anyone can help with this, that would be great.

 

[white_sheep]

Baptism, before the time of Christ, during the time of Christ, after the time of Christ, during the time of the apostles, after the time of the apostles, in the scriptures, and in records outside the scriptures has always been done with the use of water, in a real, physical ceremony. Anyone who says otherwise is just making stuff up.

 

[silas_overee]

Hi there,
You can point out to your friend that the word for baptized in that particular verse is baptizdo. Here’s the meaning for Strongs Concordance;

bap-tid’-zo
to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.

He might argue that you can also be whelmed by the Holy Spirit, i.e Spiritual Baptism, but that would not explain the fully wet part. It’s always something ceremonial, yes there is such a thing as a Spirit Baptism, as John the Baptist explained that Jesus would come to baptize with fire and with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 3:15-18)

The water baptism is for the forgiveness of sin and the Spirit Baptism/baptism of the Holy Spirit is so that we can be overwhelmed by the Spirit and begin a life in the Spirit. One is physical and the other spiritual.

May Jesus Christ be praised!
Francisco Overee

 

[theden]

I just posted on this in my blog yesterday.

Go Forth!

Jesus is clearly talking about a physical Baptism as supported throughout the New Testament.

There is too much evidence in Scripture that points to Baptism to believe that He was only talking about a spiritual baptism.

 

[TimothyH]

Your friend’s claim that baptism is “Into the name” of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit flies in the face of what the words actually say. It says “In the name”, not “Into the name”. And how is one baptized into a name? Catholicism teaches that one is Baptized into Christ himself, into the Body of Christ which is his Church.

One really has to do some logical gymnastics to come to the conclusion that Jesus commanded the disciples in Matthew 28:19 to baptize “into his name”. Rather, baptizing “In the name of” means “In the authority of” or “supported by the authority of.” Sayiing that one is to be baptized “in the name of” the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" is like a police officer commanding someone “Stop in the name of the law!” It makes more sense that way, is a more natural fit to our language. Being baptized into God’s name is kinda wierd, illogical, a bit of an unnatural fit.

*I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses…a new heart I will give you and a new spirit I will put within you…and I will put My spirit within you… (Ezekiel 36:25-27)*This passage from Ezekiel is Old Testament prophecy; it predicts the future.

Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38 NAB)

*Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38 KJV)*KJV was included for your protestant friend, just in case. Peter clearly says that Baptism is “for the rmission of sins.”

…who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. (1 Peter 3:20-21) Noah was saved through water and this prefigures baptism. Peter couldn’t be clearer when he states that baptism saves us.

*Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16)*Paul agrees with Peter that baptism washes away sins. The Greek word for “wash away” is apolouo. This Greek word appears one other time in the New Testament in 1 Corinthians 6.

That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11) Washed. Sanctified. Justified.

-Tim-

 

[melchesidechpio]

I was recently having a discussion about Baptism and its necessity for salvation with a Protestant friend, and he claimed that the baptism mentioned by Jesus in Mat 28:19 is probably referring to a spiritual baptism “*into *the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” He is of the belief that physical baptism is not necessary for salvation, mainly because he doesn’t think “baptism” refers to something physical in the NT. I told him I would like to do research about the etymology of the word baptism, and the sense to which it is referred to in this and similar passages, before answering him. I found the etymology of “baptism” here: newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#II However, I need some help showing him how to determine in which passages baptism is used in the symbolic sense, and in which it is meant to be a literal washing, intimately connected with the reception of saving grace and of the Holy Spirit. I’m ordering a Catholic Bible commentary, but would like to be able to get back to him asap–so if anyone can help with this, that would be great.

consider this from the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 19. Teach all nations. In St. Mark we read, going into the whole world, preach to every creature, that is capable of it; not only to the Jews, but to all nations throughout the whole world, baptizing them, &c. The Anabaptists pretend to shew from this place, that none are to be baptized, unless they be first taught and instructed. This is true, as to persons who are already come to an age, in which they are capable of being instructed before their baptism. But according to the tradition and constant doctrine of the Catholic Church, received also by the pretended Reformed Churches, new born children are to be baptized before they are capable of instruction: nor can they enter into the kingdom of heaven without baptism. — In the name of the Father, &c. We are made Christians in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: we profess to believe, and hope for our salvation, by believing, hoping, serving, and adoring the same three divine Persons, from whence the Fathers prove the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost to be one God, and equal in all perfections. (Witham) — Had Christ only said, Lo! I am with you all days; it might, in that case, be limited to the natural lives of the apostles; but as He moreover adds, even to the consummation of the world, it must necessarily be extended to their successors in the ministry, till the end of time. (Estius) — By these words Go, teach, he gives them the power of teaching not only what relates to faith, but also what is necessarily connected with piety and a holy conversation. For we see added a further explanation, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; which words, beyond all doubt, must be referred to the precepts of a holy life. How egregiously then must those men be deceived, who infer from the words teach all nations, that faith alone will suffice. What follows, baptizing them, shews another part of the pastoral functions, which consists in the administration of the sacraments. Hence also all heretics are refuted, who pretend to affirm that all ecclesiastical ministry consists in barely delivering the word. (Estius, in different location)

 

[Todd_Easton]

Verses that seem to support a physical (water) aspect to Christian baptism:

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this scripture he told him the good news of Jesus. And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?” And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8:35-38)

While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, “Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. (Acts 10:44-48)

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. (Ephesians 5:25-27)

let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Hebrews 10:22)

18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him. (1 Peter 3:18-22)

 

[tsering]

Why that sounds very gnostic of him to say so.

From my limited understanding, gnostics had an aversion to the physical. I have found an increasing aversion to physical things in some evangelical and charismatic circles. Actually my friend, Jesus was very physical and he used physical means to communicate grace (i.e. He rubbed mud - His spit and dirt - into a blind man’s eyes to heal him - John 9:6). Since Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever - what prevents Him from doing it today - especially since He commanded it so? You should ask your friend to start wearing one of those WWJD (what would Jesus do?) bracelets, and tell him the next time he’s tempted to think that a physical baptism doesn’t matter, to ask, “what did Jesus do?” Then you can say, He was baptized with real physical water as a real physical person.

Gnostics in the early Church denied another important Sacrament - the Eucharist. St. Irenaeus fought against their physical aversion errors in his work called Against Heresies.

Now I’m not saying your friend is gnostic or even knows what that means. I’m just saying the Church has declared that certain perspectives are in fact erroneous and heretical not only because they blatantly deny an obvious truth, but they also subtly twist or deny some aspects of it because of poor hermeneutics (i.e. faith alone and not works). Because of this, neo-gnosticism is creeping into many circles without much resistance. I think a lot of churches that either over emphasize a faith based on intellectual knowledge alone or “spiritual” experiences, while denying God the power to use physical means (signs and symbols) to communicate His grace, are teetering on the edge of gnosticism (whether they know it, or not).

Remember: “For many seducers have gone out into the world who confess not that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. This is a seducer and an antichrist.” (2 John 1:7)

Peace

 

[ConstantineTG]

Not that Sacraments are physical representations of a spiritual reality. Without the physical aspect of Baptism, you do not get the spiritual. But yes, Baptism by itself is spiritual since its effect is on our soul and not our body (other than getting wet). But you have to accomplish it through the physical sign of immersion or pouring of water.

 

[tsering]

Without the physical aspect of Baptism, you do not get the spiritual.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but when talking of the incarnation one might say: Without the physical aspect of Christ, you do not get the spiritual (or divine).

“Amen, amen, I say unto you: unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.” (John 6:53-56)

“And if Christ be in you, the body indeed is dead, because of sin: but the spirit lives, because of justification. And if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you; he that raised up Jesus Christ from the dead shall quicken also your mortal bodies, because of his Spirit that dwells in you.” (Romans 8:10-11)

Peace

 

[Curious1324]

I was recently having a discussion about Baptism and its necessity for salvation with a Protestant friend, and he claimed that the baptism mentioned by Jesus in Mat 28:19 is probably referring to a spiritual baptism “*into *the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” He is of the belief that physical baptism is not necessary for salvation, mainly because he doesn’t think “baptism” refers to something physical in the NT. I told him I would like to do research about the etymology of the word baptism, and the sense to which it is referred to in this and similar passages, before answering him. I found the etymology of “baptism” here: newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#II However, I need some help showing him how to determine in which passages baptism is used in the symbolic sense, and in which it is meant to be a literal washing, intimately connected with the reception of saving grace and of the Holy Spirit. I’m ordering a Catholic Bible commentary, but would like to be able to get back to him asap–so if anyone can help with this, that would be great.

Baptism as with all sacraments is both, physical and spiritual, because humans are both physical and spiritual.

 

[puzzleannie]

I ." He is of the belief that physical baptism is not necessary for salvation, mainly because he doesn’t think “baptism” refers to something physical in the NT.

so essentially your friend asserts that Christianity for 2000 years has been wrong and he is right.

right