Matthew 3:16-17

[Neil_Anthony]

Matthew Chapter 3
16 After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him.
17
And a voice came from the heavens, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

Did God speak these words so that everyone could hear them, or was it something only Jesus heard?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Or is the story about the voice from heaven fictional?

If it’s fictional, please don’t choose “others could hear it”

 

[brigid12]

I’m a convert from Anglicanism and I’ve always understood that others (like St. John, the Baptist) heard it, too.

 

[scapularkid8]

I have always just personally just interpreted it as He and John being able to hear it.

 

[NotWorthy]

Did God speak these words so that everyone could hear them, or was it something only Jesus heard?

Why would God say something just for Jesus’ ears. They were communionally linked, so there was no need for this.

God is One.

 

[MH84]

Why would God say something just for Jesus’ ears. They were communionally linked, so there was no need for this.

God is One.

Then why did Jesus pray to the Father?

 

[NotWorthy]

Then why did Jesus pray to the Father?

Good point!!!

Jesus did that to teach us to pray.

Jesus was alone in the garden, what with the sleeping beauties and all, so no one knew that it happened. Jesus did this for instruction in Christian behavior. Remember, Jesus had taught about asking and receiving.

But God talking just to Jesus in the midst of a crowd - what does that teach?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I’m just glad that everyone agrees this really happened. It would be really upsetting if it was just a fictional story made up, like catholic scholars say the Three Wise Men story is, like here:

It’s a little extreme to say “none” but that’s an excellent summary of the development of the gospels - it sounds like you’ve read the Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels. This document talks about the development of the non-literal nature of the gospel stories numerous times. A few related points:

• The gospels are not “boigraphies” although they contain some elements of biography.
• They are not histories although they contain a historical core.
• Their purpose is not to tell us what Jesus did, their purpose is to tell us who Jesus was.
  Just as the authors of the birth stories of Alexander the Great wrote of his divine birth surrounded by omens and portents, Luke and Matthew use similar stories and extensive symbolism to tell us who Jesus was to them. Surely we all must believe Alexander was literally the son of a god - after all, you can read all about it in an ancient document (just google “alexander the great birth” and select the first item).

And the miracle stories don’t tell us very much at all since the same stories were told about any number of Jewish holy men of the same period - do we believe they were gods because of this?

 

[Joel_Tunnah]

The language God uses in verse 17 is clearly directed at other people, not at Jesus:

(1582 Douay NT)
16And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and loe the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. 17And behold a voyce from heaven saying, This is my beloved sonne, in whom I am wel pleased.

Otherwise he would’ve said, “You are my beloved son…”

Joel

 

[MH84]

The language God uses in verse 17 is clearly directed at other people, not at Jesus:

(1582 Douay NT)
16And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and loe the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. 17And behold a voyce from heaven saying, This is my beloved sonne, in whom I am wel pleased.

Otherwise he would’ve said, “You are my beloved son…”

Joel

Have a look at Mark:

Mark 1:
9 It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove. 11 Then a voice came from heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Have a look at Mark:

Mark 1:
9 It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove. 11 Then a voice came from heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

When it says “**He **saw the heavens parting” is that referring to John the Baptist or to Jesus? Maybe it was just Jesus… it certainly suggests that not everyone saw and heard these things…

 

[SpiritMeadow]

The language God uses in verse 17 is clearly directed at other people, not at Jesus:

(1582 Douay NT)
16And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and loe the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. 17And behold a voyce from heaven saying, This is my beloved sonne, in whom I am wel pleased.

Otherwise he would’ve said, “You are my beloved son…”

Joel

In Mark
Interesting idea but…The New Jerusalem bible, and the NRSV both use YOU…and the KJV uses Thou which would be equivalent to YOU. I have no idea what translation you are using. Luke agrees and uses YOU…Only Matthew it seems used This.

So I think your argument fails. Joel Marcus makes an interesting theological point regarding the use of You in Mark. He sees it as Mark attempting to state very clearly that no one But Jesus was the Messiah, not those certainly in Jerusalem who were revolting against the Romans.

 

[MH84]

When it says “**He **saw the heavens parting” is that referring to John the Baptist or to Jesus? Maybe it was just Jesus… it certainly suggests that not everyone saw and heard these things…

Your guess is as good as mine. I wouldve thought Jesus. However, the Amplified Bible says its John. I quote from www.biblegateway.com:

Mark 1
" 9In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

10And when He came up out of the water, at once he [John] saw the heavens torn open and the [Holy] Spirit like a dove coming down [h]to enter] *into Him.(C)

11And there came a voice [j]out from within heaven, You are My Beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.(D)"

(the letters are footnotes)*

 

[MH84]

I’m a convert from Anglicanism and I’ve always understood that others (like St. John, the Baptist) heard it, too.

Just to add to the debate. I dont think that others beside John the Baptist heard the Father, or saw the Spirit descend because otherwise you would have thought the crowd would have immediately followed Him or attempted to at least, or spread far and wide what they heard. Theres no trace of such happenings in the texts.

Correct me if Im wrong.

 

[NotWorthy]

Just to add to the debate. I dont think that others beside John the Baptist heard the Father, or saw the Spirit descend because otherwise you would have thought the crowd would have immediately followed Him or attempted to at least, or spread far and wide what they heard. Theres no trace of such happenings in the texts.

Correct me if Im wrong.

Weren’t they flocking everywhere to Him?

 

[MH84]

No, he went out into the wilderness for 40 days after the Baptism.

I get the impression that His disciple “base” grew over time. I mean weren’t His apostles whom He didnt choose immediately the first to really follow Him as disciples?

 

[NotWorthy]

No, he went out into the wilderness for 40 days after the Baptism.

I get the impression that His disciple “base” grew over time. I mean weren’t His apostles whom He didnt choose immediately the first to really follow Him as disciples?

Yes, he went out for two practical reason, in addition to the profound theological reasons, if I had to offer up an opinion.

One to get away from the crowds who would have wanted to make him king.

Two, to let the furor die down. People tend to have short memories, and without any sign of the man who was called God’s son, they could have chalked it to to “Holy Land Legend”.

 

[Cristiano]

My question is: " How could have been reported it if nobody but Jesus heard it?" At that point i time Jesus was not into sharing his duality, even later He told the disciples to keep it quiet.

 

[MH84]

Weren’t they flocking everywhere to Him?

After the temptation in the Gospel of Luke it says:

Luke 4: **14Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15He taught in their synagogues, and everyone praised him. ** 16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read.

So maybe the crowds were waiting for Him, based on what they heard/saw in the revelation at the Baptism, or probably more so from the testimony of John the Baptist who, I think, definately “saw” the revelation from the Father.

But if the crowds saw the Spirit descend like a dove upon Jesus, how come they were so quick to turn Him away in Nazareth?:

Luke 4:
16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor."[e]

20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

22All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked.

23Jesus said to them, "Surely you will quote this proverb to me: ‘Physician, heal yourself! Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.’ "

24"I tell you the truth," he continued, “no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27And there were many in Israel with leprosy[f] in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.”

** 28All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him down the cliff. 30But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.**

www.biblegateway.com

Wouldnt they have expected Jesus to call Himself a “prophet”, and surely they would of been glad, not resentful, when Jesus claimed that the prophecy (vs 18-19) referred to Him?

 

[MH84]

My question is: " How could have been reported it if nobody but Jesus heard it?" At that point i time Jesus was not into sharing his duality, even later He told the disciples to keep it quiet.

What do you mean by duality, his two natures?