Matthew 8:17 & Isaiah 53:5

[BeeSweet]

RSV translation:

Matthew 8, 17: This was to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah, “He took our infirmities and bore our diseases.”

refers to:

Isaiah 53:4 “Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows;”

The note on Matt 8:17 in the NAB says, “This fulfillment citation from Isaiah 53:4 follows the MT, not the LXX.”

What are the MT, and the LXX?

 

[BeeSweet]

I’m asking because I’m being told by a non-Catholic Christian that Christ died to heal our physical as well as our spiritual sickness. So, this person is arguing for faith healing, and does not believe that God created sickness at all, that we created sickness from our sins.

 

[Nita]

RSV translation:

Matthew 8, 17: This was to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah, “He took our infirmities and bore our diseases.”

refers to:

Isaiah 53:4 “Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows;”

The note on Matt 8:17 in the NAB says, “This fulfillment citation from Isaiah 53:4 follows the MT, not the LXX.”

What are the MT, and the LXX?

MT = Masoretic Text (written in Hebrew)
LXX = Septuagint (written in Greek)

Both are the Old Testament Scriptures. The Septuagint contains 7 books (which Catholics accept as Scripture also) which the Masoretic Text does not include. Sometimes things are worded differently in the two sources. Hence the note that says the Isaiah passage follows the Masoretic wording.

Nita

 

[Nita]

I’m asking because I’m being told by a non-Catholic Christian that Christ died to heal our physical as well as our spiritual sickness. So, this person is arguing for faith healing, and does not believe that God created sickness at all, that we created sickness from our sins.

Well, He did overcome death - and we too will rise again because of His death to save us. But that doesn’t appear to be the physical healing she’s speaking of.

Although Jesus did perform healing miracles, He did not eliminate sickness in all believers. We are all going to die - and for most of us it’s not going to be death by an accident!!! So, that leaves illness. Even someone who is healed of a disease will eventually come down with something else (that won’t get healed) and die.

God did not “create” sickness. It entered our world as a result of original sin. The exact mechanics of how that came about, I don’t know. Don’t think anyone does. But it was allowed in accordance with God’s permissive will.

Nita

 

[BeeSweet]

God did not “create” sickness. It entered our world as a result of original sin. The exact mechanics of how that came about, I don’t know. Don’t think anyone does. But it was allowed in accordance with God’s permissive will.

Nita

OK, see now that claim, that sickness entered our world as a result of original sin, where is the scripture that backs that?

God created everything. Even satan himself.

 

[BeeSweet]

Is there are corresponding verse to Matt 8:17 in the Gospels of Mark, Luke, and/or John?

 

[NotWorthy]

St. Paul says that our sins cause our sickness. Not to say that someone who is sick is caused by their sin. But because mankind sins, disease is in the world.

First Corinathinthians 11: 29-30 - For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

 

[BeeSweet]

St. Paul says that our sins cause our sickness. Not to say that someone who is sick is caused by their sin. But because mankind sins, disease is in the world.

First Corinathinthians 11: 29-30 - For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

This particular person sees sins and sickness as tandem to each other though. That Christ died to heal our sickness just as he died to heal our sins. And that our faith in Him will save us from sickness. We need only ask Him to heal us. This person backs up the claim by stating that there is not one account in the New Testament that Christ denied healing to anyone who asked Him for it, and had faith. That’s different from saying that our sickness is sometimes caused by our sins, which is what Saint Paul is saying.

I am arguing from the standpoint that God does allow us to suffer sometimes. Sometimes it is His will that we suffer. This person can not accept that God would purposely allow us to suffer.

 

[NotWorthy]

This particular person sees sins and sickness as tandem to each other though. That Christ died to heal our sickness just as he died to heal our sins. And that our faith in Him will save us from sickness. We need only ask Him to heal us. This person backs up the claim by stating that there is not one account in the New Testament that Christ denied healing to anyone who asked Him for it, and had faith. That’s different from saying that our sickness is sometimes caused by our sins, which is what Saint Paul is saying.

I am arguing from the standpoint that God does allow us to suffer sometimes. Sometimes it is His will that we suffer. This person can not accept that God would purposely allow us to suffer.

What was St. Paul’s suffering? From 2nd Corinthians:

Therefore, that I might not become too elated, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, an angel of Satan, to beat me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I begged the Lord about this, that it might leave me, but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness.” I will rather boast most gladly of my weaknesses, in order that the power of Christ may dwell with me.

The NAB says about this “thorn”

A thorn in the flesh: variously interpreted as a sickness or physical disability, a temptation, or a handicap connected with his apostolic activity

Granted, it could be a person or a sickness or disease.

 

[BeeSweet]

What was St. Paul’s suffering? From 2nd Corinthians:
The NAB says about this “thorn”
Granted, it could be a person or a sickness or disease.

I’ve already used that passage. I’ve used many many passages, but I’m stuck with this one in Matthew 8:17.

 

[Nita]

OK, see now that claim, that sickness entered our world as a result of original sin, where is the scripture that backs that?

God created everything. Even satan himself.

Gen 2:17 “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.” (death results from sickness)

Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children,…”

Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned-- …vs 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. …vs 17 If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will…"
(See also 1 Cor 15:21-22)

There still are miraculous healings of illness, but not everyone who has faith will be healed if they request it.

This particular person sees sins and sickness as tandem to each other though. That Christ died to heal our sickness just as he died to heal our sins. And that our faith in Him will save us from sickness. We need only ask Him to heal us.

How does this person explain that people die then - that Jesus doesn’t heal us forever here on earth, even if we ask Him?

Nita

(Matt 8:17 is not in the other gospels.)

 

[BeeSweet]

How does this person explain that people die then - that Jesus doesn’t heal us forever here on earth, even if we ask Him?

By citing Hebrews 9:27 “And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,” The person claims that God has set a time for all of us to die.

The person goes on to say: “Where does it say in Scripture sickness is how we die?”

But in another post says: “Sickness is a form of death.” and also claims that it is impossible that God created sickness.

This is a lighthearted debate between friends, so charity is paramount.

I have a feeling that Matthew 8:17 is not a correct interpretation of the book of Isaiah 53:4 (not 5, forgive my title error!). I’ve looked at the verse in the Masoretic Text, and also in the Septaugint, and to my uneducated eyes it appears the reference is being made to Christ suffering actual physical pain and afflictions as a means to our redemption, rather than as Matthew suggests it to be foreshadowing Christ’s healing powers. That’s just my opinion though. Is there anyway I could research this theory of mine a little further?

This person also believes the Bible to be “inerrant” and “fully truth”. I do too, but language can make things difficult to know exactly what’s being said sometimes!