Matthias, only a bishop?

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

My final comments is I am thankful that you have come to stairghten out all fo christiandom as for 2000 years we have all thought that Mattias was an apostle.

Oh and to the poster about the number of angels on the head of a pin I thought it was 30 not 25.

 

[NoelFitz]

Inkaneer,

I go through life in a general confused way.

You define an apostle as one called and sent my Jesus.
So 12 were called and before Paul 11 were sent.

Paul was also sent.

For Christ did not send me to baptize but to proclaim the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its power (1 Co 1:17).

11 + 1 = 12, hence twelve apostles.

Eureka.

I am confused about one thing less.

 

[quasimodo]

Those who know, know that it is 25 angels!

Is that cherubim, seraphim or arch?

 

[inkaneer]

My final comments is I am thankful that you have come to stairghten out all fo christiandom as for 2000 years we have all thought that Mattias was an apostle.

What’s the matter? Back in post #49 I challenged you for your explanation for the points I made. Specifically I said:

“…Maybe you have a better explanation as to why Peter only calls for someone to occupy the office of bishop vacated by Judas but not his apostlehood. Maybe you have a better explanation for why Peter says that Judas’ house will be desolate and no one will live in it. Maybe you can explain how Matthias can succeed to something Judas never had, that being the authority to consecrate the Eucharist and the authority to forgive sins. If you insist on Matthias receiving this from Judas then Matthias is no better than any protestant minister today because Judas was never so empowered. Maybe you can explain to everyone how the Church can teach there were twelve Apostles then claim a total of 14. Maybe you can explain how scripture is in error when it claims there were 12 apostles. I would like to read your explanations for these so please post them for all of our benefit.”

Apparently your 2,000 years of christendom doesn’t have an answer.

 

[NotWorthy]

Is that cherubim, seraphim or arch?

… you forgot snow.

 

[NotWorthy]

What’s the matter? Back in post #49 I challenged you for your explanation for the points I made. Specifically I said:

“…Maybe you have a better explanation as to why Peter only calls for someone to occupy the office of bishop vacated by Judas but not his apostlehood. Maybe you have a better explanation for why Peter says that Judas’ house will be desolate and no one will live in it. Maybe you can explain how Matthias can succeed to something Judas never had, that being the authority to consecrate the Eucharist and the authority to forgive sins. If you insist on Matthias receiving this from Judas then Matthias is no better than any protestant minister today because Judas was never so empowered. Maybe you can explain to everyone how the Church can teach there were twelve Apostles then claim a total of 14. Maybe you can explain how scripture is in error when it claims there were 12 apostles. I would like to read your explanations for these so please post them for all of our benefit.”

Apparently your 2,000 years of christendom doesn’t have an answer.

Ink, why was Matthias the only bishop that had to witness to Christ’s entire ministry? What other bishop had to have this qualification?

 

[NotWorthy]

Ink,

It would seem that your definition of “numbered with” does not add up. In Acts 1, I read the following:

16 "My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry.

Now you, yourself, claimed that Judas was one of the called by Christ. And we know from Matthew’s Gospel that there were “the Twelve Apostles”. This passage would indicate that “he was numbered with” means he was one of them, not “he was that which looked like he was but wasn’t”.

BTW, are you ignoring me, dear brother?

 

[inkaneer]

Ink, why was Matthias the only bishop that had to witness to Christ’s entire ministry? What other bishop had to have this qualification?

One word, Seminary The Apostles had no seminary nor time nor money to start one. The Apostles learned by following Jesus for 3.5 years. They wanted someone who did not have to be trained. Someone who already had the learning experience. They had a pool of disciples to pick from and chose two.

 

[inkaneer]

So, if I am enrolled in my Church, I’m not Catholic unless and until my Church calls me Catholic?

I’m sorry, Ink, but you’re getting no traction with me.

The word “enrolled” as used in the RSV is a bad translation of the Greek. The Greek word is *Sugkatapsephizo * and it means literally to be depositing a ballot in the urn (i.e. by voting for) to assign one a place among, to vote one a place among. It says nothing of one [Matthias] becoming something [an apostle].
.

 

[NotWorthy]

One word, Seminary The Apostles had no seminary nor time nor money to start one. The Apostles learned by following Jesus for 3.5 years. They wanted someone who did not have to be trained. Someone who already had the learning experience. They had a pool of disciples to pick from and chose two.

But this stipulation did not go elsewhere. Paul tell Timothy how to select Bishops. I don’t see this “you must have x amount of years of training or witness to Christ’s ministry” in his teaching on the selection of bishops.

You wouldn’t be making this up now, would you?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

What’s the matter? Back in post #49 I challenged you for your explanation for the points I made. Specifically I said:

“…Maybe you have a better explanation as to why Peter only calls for someone to occupy the office of bishop vacated by Judas but not his apostlehood. Maybe you have a better explanation for why Peter says that Judas’ house will be desolate and no one will live in it. Maybe you can explain how Matthias can succeed to something Judas never had, that being the authority to consecrate the Eucharist and the authority to forgive sins. If you insist on Matthias receiving this from Judas then Matthias is no better than any protestant minister today because Judas was never so empowered. Maybe you can explain to everyone how the Church can teach there were twelve Apostles then claim a total of 14. Maybe you can explain how scripture is in error when it claims there were 12 apostles. I would like to read your explanations for these so please post them for all of our benefit.”

Apparently your 2,000 years of christendom doesn’t have an answer.

No you just dont like the answers and know more than everyone else in the 2000 years.

 

[NotWorthy]

The word “enrolled” as used in the RSV is a bad translation of the Greek. The Greek word is *Sugkatapsephizo * and it means literally to be depositing a ballot in the urn (i.e. by voting for) to assign one a place among, to vote one a place among. It says nothing of one [Matthias] becoming something [an apostle].
.

“enrolled” was a synonym for “numbered with” by your very own words. It was not a “bad translation”, it was you who brought the word forth.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

I must admit, I am flabbergasted that this thread went two whole pages past the point that I thought it had died.

 

[inkaneer]

But this stipulation did not go elsewhere. Paul tell Timothy how to select Bishops. I don’t see this “you must have x amount of years of training or witness to Christ’s ministry” in his teaching on the selection of bishops.

You wouldn’t be making this up now, would you?

Who did Timothy learn from? Paul. What did Paul tell Timothy? [Hint: 2Ti3:10-17]

“10 Now you have observed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11 my persecutions, my sufferings, what befell me at Antioch, at Ico’nium, and at Lystra, what persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12 Indeed all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. **14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it **15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

also 2Ti 2:1-2

“1 You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2 and **what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” **

Timothy went to the seminary of St. Paul the Apostle.

 

[inkaneer]

“enrolled” was a synonym for “numbered with” by your very own words. It was not a “bad translation”, it was you who brought the word forth.

No it is the translation in the RSV. The KJV as well as the Doiuay-Rheims has “numbered with”. Neither one conveys the true meaning of the Greek but the older translations are better. Same goes for the word episkope. Bishopric or office of bishop is better than just office.

 

[inkaneer]

No you just dont like the answers and know more than everyone else in the 2000 years.

This may or may not come as ashock to you but I have learned that I am not alone in this. Now maybe you can live with contradiction in your belief but there are people who expect that the church that claims to be guided into all truth teaches the whole truth. Thus far the Church has not dogmatically stated the status of Matthias as to whether he is just a bishop or a bishop Apostle.

I also realize that there are parishes out there called St. Matthias the Apostle. The name on the sign means nothing because there are also parishes that have signs that say St.XXXXXX Roman Catholic Church. There is no such church unless you are referring to the arch diocese of Rome, Italy. The proper name is just Catholic Church.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Inkaneer, I will leave you to your beliefs, along with some words from the early Fathers that I hope will settle this matter for you.

****Constitutions of the Holy Apostles:**XII. **
But because this heresy did then seem the more powerful to seduce men, and the whole Church was in danger,(5) we the twelve assembled together at Jerusalem (for Matthias was chosen to be an apostle in the room of the betrayer, and took the lot of Judas; as it is said, “His bishopric(6) let another take”).

St Augustine, City of God:“here are other meanings, too, in this number twelve. Were not this the right interpretation of the twelve thrones, then since we read that **Matthias was ordained an apostle in the room of Judas the traitor, **the ***Apostle Paul, though he labored more than them all,(5) should have no throne of judgment; but he unmistakeably considers himself to be included in the number of the judges when he says, “Know ye not that we shall judge angels?”(***6) The same rule is to be observed in applying the number twelve to those who are to be judged. For though it was said, “judging the twelve tribes of Israel,” the tribe of Levi, which is the thirteenth, shall not on this account be exempt from judgment, neither shall judgment be passed only on Israel and not on the other nations. And by the words “in the regeneration,” He certainly meant the resurrection of the dead to be understood; for our flesh shall be regenerated by incorruption, as our soul is regenerated by faith.”

**St Augustine, The Harmony of the Gospels: **
For now the apostle might speak of those whom the Lord designated apostles, not as the twelve, but as the eleven. Some codices, indeed, contain this very reading. I take that, however, to be an emendation introduced by men who were perplexed by the text, supposing it to refer to those twelve apostles who, by the time when Judas disappeared, were really only eleven. It may be the case, then, that those are the more correct codices which contain the reading “eleven;” or it may be that Paul intended some other twelve disciples to be understood by that phrase;(2) or, once more, the fact may be that he meant that consecrated number(3) to remain as before, although the circle had been reduced to eleven: for this number twelve, as it was used of the apostles, had so mystical an importance, that, in order to keep the spiritual symbol of the same number, there could be but a single individual, namely, Matthias, elected to fill the place of Judas(4) But whichever of these several views may be adopted, nothing necessarily results which can appear to be inconsistent with truth, or at variance with any one most trustworthy historian among them.

**St Augustine Homlies on the Psalms:**There is a deep mystery in this number of twelve “Ye shall sit,” says our Saviour, “on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”(4) If there are twelve thrones there, there will be no room for the judgment-seat of Paul, the thirteenth Apostle, though he says that he shall judge not men only, but even Angels; which, but the fallen Angels?

**Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata:**Matthias, accordingly, who was not chosen along with them, on showing himself worthy of becoming an apostle, is substituted for Judas.

**Lactantius, Of the manner in which the persecuters died: **His apostles were at that time eleven in number, to whom were added Matthias, in the room of the traitor Judas, and afterwards Paul.

Origen, Against Celsus: For His deity was more resplendent after lie had finished the economy (7) (of salvation): and this Peter, surnamed Cephas, the first- fruits as it were of the apostles, was enabled to behold, and along with him the twelve (Matthias having been substituted in room of Judas); and after them He appeared to the five hundred brethren at once, and then to James, and subsequently to all the others besides the twelve apostles, perhaps to the seventy also, and lastly to Paul, as to one born out of due time, and who knew well how to say, “Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given;” and probably the expression “least of all” has the same meaning with “one born out of due time.”

 

[inkaneer]

Ink,

It would seem that your definition of “numbered with” does not add up. In Acts 1, I read the following:

Quote:
16 "My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17** He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry**.

Now you, yourself, claimed that Judas was one of the called by Christ. And we know from Matthew’s Gospel that there were “the Twelve Apostles”. This passage would indicate that “he was numbered with” means he was one of them, not “he was that which looked like he was but wasn’t”.

No it doesn’t. Notice Peter says Judas "…was allotted a share in this ministry" What does “was alotted a share” mean? The Douay-Rheims has verse 17 as:

“Who was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.”

So Judas had a share , a part in the ministry. That implies that he did not have it all. This is the very same language that the Church uses in regard to Protestants. We claim thay have a share, a part, of the deposit of faith but not all of it. Same with Judas. I already pointed out that Judas was never empowered to consecrate the Eucharist not was able to forgive sins. Judas is missing some very vital parts for ministry. Maybe that is why Peter says Judas was only numbered with the Apostles. He never graduated from seminary so was only numbered [past tense] with the eleven.

BTW, are you ignoring me, dear brother?

Not at all.

 

[inkaneer]

Inkaneer, I will leave you to your beliefs, along with some words from the early Fathers that I hope will settle this matter for you.

****Constitutions of the Holy Apostles:****XII.
But because this heresy did then seem the more powerful to seduce men, and the whole Church was in danger,(5) we the twelve assembled together at Jerusalem (for Matthias was chosen to be an apostle in the room of the betrayer, and took the lot of Judas; as it is said, “His bishopric(6) let another take”).

St Augustine, City of God:“here are other meanings, too, in this number twelve. Were not this the right interpretation of the twelve thrones, then since we read that Matthias was ordained an apostle in the room of Judas the traitor, the ***Apostle Paul, though he labored more than them all,(5) should have no throne of judgment; but he unmistakeably considers himself to be included in the number of the judges when he says, “Know ye not that we shall judge angels?”(***6) The same rule is to be observed in applying the number twelve to those who are to be judged. For though it was said, “judging the twelve tribes of Israel,” the tribe of Levi, which is the thirteenth, shall not on this account be exempt from judgment, neither shall judgment be passed only on Israel and not on the other nations. And by the words “in the regeneration,” He certainly meant the resurrection of the dead to be understood; for our flesh shall be regenerated by incorruption, as our soul is regenerated by faith.”

**St Augustine, The Harmony of the Gospels: **
For now the apostle might speak of those whom the Lord designated apostles, not as the twelve, but as the eleven. Some codices, indeed, contain this very reading. I take that, however, to be an emendation introduced by men who were perplexed by the text, supposing it to refer to those twelve apostles who, by the time when Judas disappeared, were really only eleven. It may be the case, then, that those are the more correct codices which contain the reading “eleven;” or it may be that Paul intended some other twelve disciples to be understood by that phrase;(2) or, once more, the fact may be that he meant that consecrated number(3) to remain as before, although the circle had been reduced to eleven: for this number twelve, as it was used of the apostles, had so mystical an importance, that, in order to keep the spiritual symbol of the same number, there could be but a single individual, namely, Matthias, elected to fill the place of Judas(4) But whichever of these several views may be adopted, nothing necessarily results which can appear to be inconsistent with truth, or at variance with any one most trustworthy historian among them.

**St Augustine Homlies on the Psalms:**There is a deep mystery in this number of twelve “Ye shall sit,” says our Saviour, “on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”(4) If there are twelve thrones there, there will be no room for the judgment-seat of Paul, the thirteenth Apostle, though he says that he shall judge not men only, but even Angels; which, but the fallen Angels?

**Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata:**Matthias, accordingly, who was not chosen along with them, on showing himself worthy of becoming an apostle, is substituted for Judas.

**Lactantius, Of the manner in which the persecuters died: **His apostles were at that time eleven in number, to whom were added Matthias, in the room of the traitor Judas, and afterwards Paul.

Origen, Against Celsus: For His deity was more resplendent after lie had finished the economy (7) (of salvation): and this Peter, surnamed Cephas, the first- fruits as it were of the apostles, was enabled to behold, and along with him the twelve (Matthias having been substituted in room of Judas); and after them He appeared to the five hundred brethren at once, and then to James, and subsequently to all the others besides the twelve apostles, perhaps to the seventy also, and lastly to Paul, as to one born out of due time, and who knew well how to say, “Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given;” and probably the expression “least of all” has the same meaning with “one born out of due time.”

Sorry but the writings of fallible men even if they are Fathers of the church are still fallible. Read St. Thomas Aquinas, a doctor of the Church, on when life begins or when the soul is joined to the person. If he lived today he would be a heretic!

I hgave you reasons from inerrant Scripture and you give me this from fallible men. Forgive me if I do not comment further but one of the forum rules says we are to be charitable.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Sorry but the writings of fallible men even if they are Fathers of the church are still fallible. Read St. Thomas Aquinas, a doctor of the Church, on when life begins or when the soul is joined to the person. If he lived today he would be a heretic!

I hgave you reasons from inerrant Scripture and you give me this from fallible men. Forgive me if I do not comment further but one of the forum rules says we are to be charitable.

I find it hard to believe that you truly read and digested the quotes, considering you were replying to them a few seconds after I posted, but as I stated before, I leave you to your beliefs.