O
oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
Thank you I knew there was a verse to this effect and I have been searching for it.
- Status
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Nathan_Wagar
Guest
Don’t bother. I already posted that early in the thread, and to no avail. He’s utterly convinced, and I’m fairly certain even an infallible statement. He’ll even argue with the consensus of the fathers statement in Trent, even though every single time Matthias is mentioned, every time, he is called an apostle. If that isn’t unanimous consent, I don’t know what is. I mean even the apostolic constitutions have Matthias as an apostle, giving instructions on the succession of bishops. But I digress.Thank you I knew there was a verse to this effect and I have been searching for it.
O
oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
Nathan I agree that is why why posted that I need to leave this thread as I was getting very close to be mean and I do not need to add that to my list in confession. Sorry I missed it when you posted it. And Ink must have completely ignored it.
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Nathan_Wagar
Guest
I’m going to sit, disappointed, and let you reflect on this statement a bit. Hopefully you will realize the contradiction.
The simple fact is, legally the field was his. Argue semantics all you want, Scripture and the Law stated that the field was his. Considering that the money was considered ritually unclean (don’t even try to argue that, because you don’t know anything about Jews. We’ve established that) and it can’t be put into the Temple treasury, it is apparent that they bought the field in Judas’ name. Either way, Judas had legal possession of the field, ironically in death, and the prophecy, which I have already pointed out used a literal term also equivalent to “yard,” applies to the field of blood. Even the grammar of the passage points back to the field of blood. The significance of this (and the reason you will never concede the point) is because you recognize that your entire case hinges on your intepretation of this passage stating that Judas’ *apostleship *ended with Judas. Instead of advocating this position, does it not make more sense to view an alternative interpretation that harmonizes with the unanimous teaching of the fathers, Church liturgical tradition, and just about every theologian I have seen write on this matter? Your interpretation creates too many problems:
- It uses a prophecy to show that Judas’ apostleship was desolate, then tries to also say that Paul can somehow “dwell in the desolate tent” in contrast to what the prophecy just said.
- It assumes that casting lots, a Jewish method of determining the will (and therefore choice) of God, is actually a human means of determining succession, even though hands were never laid on for the succession, a method used all throughout the Old, and into the New.
- It assumes that the fathers were all wrong about the same issue (and I mean every single father that even *mentioned *Matthias).
- It assumes that the Council Of Trent, speaking of this consensus of the Fathers, did not really mean it when they said that you are in schism.
- It assumes that every single father saying the same things is not a consensus.
- It assumes the liturgical tradition should be ignored.
- It assumes the above because of a misunderstanding of St. Christopher.
- It is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the OT and of Jewish traditions.
- It is based on misunderstanding Greek terms, as well as making connections based on those Greek terms while ignoring differing prophecy citations and therefore contexts.
- It is based on semantic, arguing “twelve what” when later Scripture makes clear “the apostles.”
- It is based on assuming that every Catholic theologian is wrong.
- It is based on the Catholic Encylcopedia being useless.
- It is based on everybody on this forum being wrong in the same way.
- It even goes against apocryphal writings that admit Matthias was an apostle.
- It goes against footnotes by Orthodox Catholic Study Bibles (Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch)
- It goes against liberal theologians too.
- It contradicts Paul’s own words in 1 Cor 15.
- It doesn’t fulfill the ending of the exile for Pentecost, thus making Jesus a false messiah.
- It doesn’t take into account that Paul had to convince other people that he had the right to be considered an apostle.
Yes, I am completely aware that you never admit when you’re caught, and tend to move on to another subject full-throttle. Yes, I am aware that you will keep using this to prove your point regardless of your error. However, there are lurkers out there, and my posts are more for their benefit than for yours.
I
inkaneer
Guest
Acts 1:26 says Matthias was numbered with the eleven Apostles. This is after the election. If he was an Apostles he would be #12 and he would then be numbered among the 12 apostles. As for Paul, we went through this before. Paul says THE TWELVE. The Twelve what? Like I said the Holy Spirit seems to go out of His way to not call Matthias an apostle. If only the Holy Spirit would have inspired Paul to write The Twelve Apostles. But He didn’t. The Holy Spirit had no problem linking the eleven to the word apostles in Acts 1:26 but all of a sudden in in Acts 2:14 The Holy Spirit drops the word apostle and only says:
“But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them…”
Peter is standing with eleven men whom the Holy Spirit does not call apostles. We know ten of the eleven are. I don’t think this is just coincidence that the Holy Spirit does not call them Apostles in either Paul’s writing or Luke’s. I don’t think the Holy Spirit does things randomly so as to be a coincidence. God is in control and He doesn’t work troiugh random chance or coincidence. That is how I see it.
I
inkaneer
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotWorthy
Ink,
Paul writes in Corinthians,1Cor. 15:5 “that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.”
We know that Judas was dead at this time, and we can assume that Matthias hadn’t been elevated yet… but we know that Matthias was there to witness all of Jesus’ ministry. Hence, the Twelve must be referring to the 11 Apostles plus the Apostle Matthias.
Originally Posted by NotWorthy
Ink,
Paul writes in Corinthians,1Cor. 15:5 “that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.”
We know that Judas was dead at this time, and we can assume that Matthias hadn’t been elevated yet… but we know that Matthias was there to witness all of Jesus’ ministry. Hence, the Twelve must be referring to the 11 Apostles plus the Apostle Matthias.
You know somehow the Holy Spirit does not want to make the link betewwen the name Matthias and hte word Apostle. Of course that doesn’t appear to stop you though. I am sure Matthias was awarded all the honor of his position as a bishop. I’m sure he was involved in the interworkings of the Church heirarchy. But He is not one of what Revelation 21:14 calls “the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.” You got too many apostles.Thank you I knew there was a verse to this effect and I have been searching for it.
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NHInsider
Guest
So tell us, Ink, which of the tribes of Israel doesn’t get a gate?
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NotWorthy
Guest
That is wrong, simply wrong. “He (1) was numbered **with **the Eleven (11)” = 12. If I stand with someone in the pew, I am not that someone. I am with them. He was numbered with the 11 = 12.
I don’t know, Ink. Perhaps the Twelve Kumquats? Perhaps they are the Twelve Lords A-Leapin’ that the stupid Christmas Song is speaking of.
Or perhaps its the same College of Twelve Apostles that are referenced throughout the Synoptics.
Tell you what, Ink. Why don’t you find me a single commentary that claims Matthias is not an Apostle in Acts 1. You may be right that it is not considered dogma, but I would counter that it is considered doctrine.
No, the Holy Spirit doesn’t. But the Holy Spirit guides the Church to understand that Matthias is an Apostle. Again, show me a Catholic commentary that says that Matthias is not an Apostle.
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NotWorthy
Guest
So which Diocese did Matthias have?
I’ve yet to see a bishop that was not bishop of a diocese. Where was Matthias.
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Pete_Holter
Guest
Greetings, Inkaneer!
We had a brief exchange on this earlier this year beginning here.
The exchange went like this…
Hail, brother!
The “College of the Twelve” has a special place within the circle of apostles as indicated by Paul when he wrote that Jesus appeared “to the twelve,” later to “all of the apostles,” and finally to Paul himself as “the least of the apostles” (1 Cor 15:5, 7, 8). The larger group of apostles includes, for example, Barnabas, who is identified as an apostle in conjunction with Paul in Acts 14:14, and James the Lord’s brother as indicated by Paul in Galatians 1:19. The Twelve are distinguished by being chosen by Christ “to be with Him” during His earthly ministry (Mark 3:14), which was also a requirement for Judas’ replacement (cf. Acts 1:21-22).
In Christ,
Pete
Matthew calls Judas an apostle when he says that “The names of the twelve apostles are these” (Matthew 10:2). Mark tells us that Jesus gave them all the name of “apostle”: “And He appointed twelve (whom he also named apostles) so that they might be with him and he might send them out to preach” (Mark 3:14; cf. Luke 6:13).
Jesus “sent” Judas in Matthew 10:5 (cf. Mark 6:7, Luke 9:1).
Matthias was chosen to replace Judas in order to “take his office” (Acts 1:20). His appointment came through Jesus, Who is the Lord that the Apostles petitioned in prayer for this selection: “You, Lord, Who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place” (Acts 1:24-25).
Your brother in the LORD,
Pete
……………
I see the discussion has progressed!
We had a brief exchange on this earlier this year beginning here.
The exchange went like this…
Hail, brother!
The “College of the Twelve” has a special place within the circle of apostles as indicated by Paul when he wrote that Jesus appeared “to the twelve,” later to “all of the apostles,” and finally to Paul himself as “the least of the apostles” (1 Cor 15:5, 7, 8). The larger group of apostles includes, for example, Barnabas, who is identified as an apostle in conjunction with Paul in Acts 14:14, and James the Lord’s brother as indicated by Paul in Galatians 1:19. The Twelve are distinguished by being chosen by Christ “to be with Him” during His earthly ministry (Mark 3:14), which was also a requirement for Judas’ replacement (cf. Acts 1:21-22).
In Christ,
Pete
Sorry. I was meaning to suggest that Revelation is referring to the College of the Twelve.
Matthew calls Judas an apostle when he says that “The names of the twelve apostles are these” (Matthew 10:2). Mark tells us that Jesus gave them all the name of “apostle”: “And He appointed twelve (whom he also named apostles) so that they might be with him and he might send them out to preach” (Mark 3:14; cf. Luke 6:13).
Jesus “sent” Judas in Matthew 10:5 (cf. Mark 6:7, Luke 9:1).
Matthias was chosen to replace Judas in order to “take his office” (Acts 1:20). His appointment came through Jesus, Who is the Lord that the Apostles petitioned in prayer for this selection: “You, Lord, Who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place” (Acts 1:24-25).
Your brother in the LORD,
Pete
……………
I see the discussion has progressed!
P
Pete_Holter
Guest
I think most of the following material was quoted in other threads you’ve had on this same subject, but here it is again for consideration:
“Although Mary occupied a privileged place in the little circle of those gathered in the Upper Room after the Lord’s Ascension (cf. Acts 1:14), it was not she who was called to enter the College of the Twelve at the time of the election that resulted in the choice of Matthias” (Inter Insigniores).
“Peter spoke with authority: ‘During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers’ (Acts 1:15). It was not the assembly which designated him. He acted as one possessing authority. At that meeting Peter presented the problem created by Judas’ betrayal and death, which reduced the number of apostles to eleven. In fidelity to Jesus’ will, filled with symbolism about passing from the old to the new Israel (twelve constitutive tribes–twelve apostles), Peter indicated the necessary solution: appoint a replacement who, with the Eleven, would become ‘a witness to his [Christ’s] resurrection’ (cf. Acts 1:21-22). The assembly accepted and implemented this solution, casting lots so that the choice would come from on high. Thus ‘the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles’ (Acts 1:26)” (Peter Ranks First Among the Apostles).
“The apostles chose Matthias, one of Jesus’ most constant disciples, to make up the number of the ‘Twelve’ which had remained incomplete because of the betrayal and death of Judas Iscariot” (The Resurrection: A Historical Event and an Affirmation of Faith).
Matthias is numbered with the Eleven, which means that he was one of them. Mark 16:7 distinguishes Peter from the rest of the apostles, and Acts 2:14 demonstrates that, after the election of Mathias, the number of the other apostles was eleven by saying that Peter was “standing with the eleven.” Peter, not Matthias, is the distinguishing personality that causes alternation between the Eleven and the Twelve. And it is the Twelve that are sent out on the day of Pentecost:
“The Lord Jesus, after praying to the Father, calling to Himself those whom He desired, appointed twelve to be with Him, and whom He would send to preach the Kingdom of God; and these apostles He formed after the manner of a college or a stable group, over which He placed Peter chosen from among them. He sent them first to the children of Israel and then to all nations, so that as sharers in His power they might make all peoples His disciples, and sanctify and govern them, and thus spread His Church, and by ministering to it under the guidance of the Lord, direct it all days even to the consummation of the world. And in this mission they were fully confirmed on the day of Pentecost” (Lumen Gentium).
Benedict distinguishes the ministry of Matthias the apostle from that of mere bishops, which didn’t take shape until “the second and third generations”:
“Faithful to the Lord’s mandate, after his Ascension, the Twelve first made up their number by appointing Matthias in Judas’ place (cf. Acts 1: 15-26), thereby continuing to involve others in the duties entrusted to them so that they might continue their ministry.
“The Risen Lord himself called Paul (cf. Gal 1: 1), but Paul, although he was called by the Lord to be an Apostle, compared his Gospel with the Gospel of the Twelve (cf. ibid., 1:18), and was concerned to transmit what he had received (cf. I Cor 11: 23; 15: 3-4)… As we have seen, first Matthias, then Paul, then Barnabas joined the Twelve, then others, until, in the second and third generations, the Bishop’s ministry took shape” (Benedict XVI, General Audience).
“Although Mary occupied a privileged place in the little circle of those gathered in the Upper Room after the Lord’s Ascension (cf. Acts 1:14), it was not she who was called to enter the College of the Twelve at the time of the election that resulted in the choice of Matthias” (Inter Insigniores).
“Peter spoke with authority: ‘During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers’ (Acts 1:15). It was not the assembly which designated him. He acted as one possessing authority. At that meeting Peter presented the problem created by Judas’ betrayal and death, which reduced the number of apostles to eleven. In fidelity to Jesus’ will, filled with symbolism about passing from the old to the new Israel (twelve constitutive tribes–twelve apostles), Peter indicated the necessary solution: appoint a replacement who, with the Eleven, would become ‘a witness to his [Christ’s] resurrection’ (cf. Acts 1:21-22). The assembly accepted and implemented this solution, casting lots so that the choice would come from on high. Thus ‘the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles’ (Acts 1:26)” (Peter Ranks First Among the Apostles).
“The apostles chose Matthias, one of Jesus’ most constant disciples, to make up the number of the ‘Twelve’ which had remained incomplete because of the betrayal and death of Judas Iscariot” (The Resurrection: A Historical Event and an Affirmation of Faith).
Matthias is numbered with the Eleven, which means that he was one of them. Mark 16:7 distinguishes Peter from the rest of the apostles, and Acts 2:14 demonstrates that, after the election of Mathias, the number of the other apostles was eleven by saying that Peter was “standing with the eleven.” Peter, not Matthias, is the distinguishing personality that causes alternation between the Eleven and the Twelve. And it is the Twelve that are sent out on the day of Pentecost:
“The Lord Jesus, after praying to the Father, calling to Himself those whom He desired, appointed twelve to be with Him, and whom He would send to preach the Kingdom of God; and these apostles He formed after the manner of a college or a stable group, over which He placed Peter chosen from among them. He sent them first to the children of Israel and then to all nations, so that as sharers in His power they might make all peoples His disciples, and sanctify and govern them, and thus spread His Church, and by ministering to it under the guidance of the Lord, direct it all days even to the consummation of the world. And in this mission they were fully confirmed on the day of Pentecost” (Lumen Gentium).
Benedict distinguishes the ministry of Matthias the apostle from that of mere bishops, which didn’t take shape until “the second and third generations”:
“Faithful to the Lord’s mandate, after his Ascension, the Twelve first made up their number by appointing Matthias in Judas’ place (cf. Acts 1: 15-26), thereby continuing to involve others in the duties entrusted to them so that they might continue their ministry.
“The Risen Lord himself called Paul (cf. Gal 1: 1), but Paul, although he was called by the Lord to be an Apostle, compared his Gospel with the Gospel of the Twelve (cf. ibid., 1:18), and was concerned to transmit what he had received (cf. I Cor 11: 23; 15: 3-4)… As we have seen, first Matthias, then Paul, then Barnabas joined the Twelve, then others, until, in the second and third generations, the Bishop’s ministry took shape” (Benedict XVI, General Audience).
P
Pete_Holter
Guest
The fact that Peter says that Judas was “numbered among us” (Acts 1:17), and that Luke refers to him as “of the number of the twelve” (Luke 22:3), and yet goes on to identify him as “one of the twelve” (Luke 22:47), indicates that all of this variation in language is just different ways of saying the same thing. Jesus uses the base word for what is translated in Acts 1:26 as “numbered,” in Luke 14:28 where He tells us to “count the cost.” The compound word used in Acts 1:26 simply means that when you count the number of the apostles, you’re going to count Mathias in union with them. After Matthias is added to their number, they are restored to the Twelve Apostles (cf. Acts 6:2, 6:6).
We also know that Matthias replaced Judas as an apostle because of the word “apostleship” (Acts 1:25). Mathias could very well take up the words of Paul and say, “If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord” (1 Corinthians 9:2). The reason Peter and Paul are described as having an “apostleship” or an “apostolic ministry” to the Jews and Gentiles is because they are apostles (cf. Galatians 2:8). For Mathias to exercise an apostleship, he would need to be an apostle.
Matthias took “the place” of Judas in his apostleship. You can compare what Mathias receives in Acts 1:25 with Ephesians 1:11 where it is said that we have obtained an “inheritance” in Christ. In each case, it is something that Matthias or we have by right of “inheritance.” What is taken from Judas in 1:25 is referred to as a “lot” because the Apostles cast “lots” to make the determination (v. 26). It is the same word being used in Acts 1:25 and 1:26 and Ephesians – in verb or noun form – being variously translated based on the context, but conveying the same general concept.
And concerning the “inheritance” or “allotment” that Mathias received, Peter says that Mathias “took” it (“take the place…”). To take something is to obtain it, to have it, to possess it. Peter quotes from Psalm 109 to say that another will “take” Judas’ office. And Peter tells us just what was “taken” in his prayer in Acts 1:25. There we see that the office of leadership that was “taken” was Judas’ diaconate, or office of service as a priest, and his apostleship. The “office” or “bishopric”, “allotment”, and “ministry and apostleship” of verses 1:20 and 1:25 are all synonymous terms in Peter’s line of thought. This is why Judas’ “dwelling,” “habitation,” etc. has become desolate: the right to inheritance was taken from him and his would-be spiritual progeny, and transferred or allotted to Mathias as his substitute by the choice of the LORD. The Field of Blood became “a burial place for strangers” (Matthew 25:7), not as a fulfillment of Psalm 69, but as a testimony to that fulfillment in the loss of his apostleship and future glory in judging the Twelve tribes of Israel.
Furthermore, the Apostle Peter calls himself an elder in 1 Peter 5:1; Paul uses “elder” and “overseer/bishop” interchangeably in Titus 1:5 and 1:7; and what Luke refers to as “elders” in Acts 20:17, Paul refers to as “overseers” (Acts 20:28). What this shows us is that for the Scriptures to say that someone took another’s “bishopric” is not to restrict what is taken to the more technical office of “bishop” as we use the term today. In the Scriptures, an elder could very well be a bishop and even an apostle; a bishop was certainly an elder and could very well be an apostle; and an apostle was always a bishop and an elder. What we do not have in Scripture is someone holding an apostleship who is not also an apostle. The text is not ambiguous. One simply does not have an apostleship without being an apostle.
Inkaneer, I encourage you to hold your position with less tenacity and more charity. And may everyone increase in charity towards you.
Can someone please follow up behind me to fix my errors? I probably won’t have the time to come back to this thread. Thank you!
Your brother in Christ the LORD,
Pete
P
Pete_Holter
Guest
“[T] he Holy Fathers, We say, are of supreme authority, whenever they all interpret in one and the same manner any text of the Bible, as pertaining to the doctrine of faith or morals; for their unanimity clearly evinces that such interpretation has come down from the Apostles as a matter of Catholic faith. The opinion of the Fathers is also of very great weight when they treat of these matters in their capacity of doctors, unofficially; not only because they excel in their knowledge of revealed doctrine and in their acquaintance with many things which are useful in understanding the apostolic Books, but because they are men of eminent sanctity and of ardent zeal for the truth, on whom God has bestowed a more ample measure of His light. Wherefore the expositor should make it his duty to follow their footsteps with all reverence, and to use their labours with intelligent appreciation… The authority of other Catholic interpreters is not so great” (Providentissimus Deus).
Our good brother Nathan (thanks a lot for your encouragement in that other thread!) posted a number of these quotes earlier, but here they are again with others:
“Not that they became apostles through being chosen for some distinguished peculiarity of nature, since also Judas was chosen along with them. But they were capable of becoming apostles on being chosen by Him who foresees even ultimate issues. Matthias, accordingly, who was not chosen along with them, on showing himself worthy of becoming an apostle, is substituted for Judas” (Clement of Alexandria, , Bk. 6, Ch. 13The Stromata).
“The Apostle Peter, therefore, after the resurrection of the Lord, and His assumption into the heavens, being desirous of filling up the number of the twelve apostles, and in electing into the place of Judas any substitute who should be chosen by God, thus addressed those who were present: ‘Men [and] brethren, this Scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost, by the mouth of David, spoke before concerning Judas, which was made guide to them that took Jesus. “For he was numbered with us” (Acts 1:16), etc. … Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein; and, His bishoprick let another take;’ — thus leading to the completion of the apostles, according to the words spoken by David” (Irenaeus, , Bk. 3, Ch. 12Against Heresies).
“He had chosen the twelve chief [disciples] to be at His side, and whom He destined to be the teachers of the nations. Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to ‘go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost’ (Matthew 28:19). Immediately, therefore, so did the apostles, whom this designation indicates as “the sent.” Having, on the authority of a prophecy, which occurs in a psalm of David, chosen Matthias by lot as the twelfth, into the place of Judas, they obtained the promised power of the Holy Ghost for the gift of miracles and of utterance” (Tertullian, , Ch. 20Prescription Against Heretics).
“His deity was more resplendent after He had finished the economy (of salvation): and this Peter, surnamed Cephas, the first-fruits as it were of the apostles, was enabled to behold, and along with him the twelve (Matthias having been substituted in room of Judas)” (Origen, , Bk. 2, Ch. 65Against Celsus).
“Matthias… was numbered with the apostles in the place of Judas [and] there were many others who were called apostles, in imitation of the Twelve, as was Paul himself” (Eusebius, , Bk. 1, Ch. 12Church History).
“Matthias, who, as has been shown was also one of the Seventy, was chosen to the apostolate” (Eusebius, , Bk. 2, Ch. 1Church History).
“AND the Apostle Peter is a sufficient witness that this prophecy refers to the traitor Judas, when, after the Saviour’s Ascension, all the apostles being gathered together with many of the brethren, he stood up in the midst, and said:
“[Acts 1:16-20]
“Peter, then, in saying thus, suggested that another must be chosen in place of Judas, to fill up the deficient number of the twelve apostles, so that the prophecy might be fulfilled. And when the lot had been cast, it fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the twelve apostles” (Eusebius, , Bk. 10, Ch. 3The Proof of the Gospel).
“His apostles were at that time eleven in number, to whom were added Matthias, in the room of the traitor Judas, and afterwards Paul” (Lactantius, Of the Manner in Which the Persecutors Died).
Our good brother Nathan (thanks a lot for your encouragement in that other thread!) posted a number of these quotes earlier, but here they are again with others:
“Not that they became apostles through being chosen for some distinguished peculiarity of nature, since also Judas was chosen along with them. But they were capable of becoming apostles on being chosen by Him who foresees even ultimate issues. Matthias, accordingly, who was not chosen along with them, on showing himself worthy of becoming an apostle, is substituted for Judas” (Clement of Alexandria, , Bk. 6, Ch. 13The Stromata).
“The Apostle Peter, therefore, after the resurrection of the Lord, and His assumption into the heavens, being desirous of filling up the number of the twelve apostles, and in electing into the place of Judas any substitute who should be chosen by God, thus addressed those who were present: ‘Men [and] brethren, this Scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost, by the mouth of David, spoke before concerning Judas, which was made guide to them that took Jesus. “For he was numbered with us” (Acts 1:16), etc. … Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein; and, His bishoprick let another take;’ — thus leading to the completion of the apostles, according to the words spoken by David” (Irenaeus, , Bk. 3, Ch. 12Against Heresies).
“He had chosen the twelve chief [disciples] to be at His side, and whom He destined to be the teachers of the nations. Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to ‘go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost’ (Matthew 28:19). Immediately, therefore, so did the apostles, whom this designation indicates as “the sent.” Having, on the authority of a prophecy, which occurs in a psalm of David, chosen Matthias by lot as the twelfth, into the place of Judas, they obtained the promised power of the Holy Ghost for the gift of miracles and of utterance” (Tertullian, , Ch. 20Prescription Against Heretics).
“His deity was more resplendent after He had finished the economy (of salvation): and this Peter, surnamed Cephas, the first-fruits as it were of the apostles, was enabled to behold, and along with him the twelve (Matthias having been substituted in room of Judas)” (Origen, , Bk. 2, Ch. 65Against Celsus).
“Matthias… was numbered with the apostles in the place of Judas [and] there were many others who were called apostles, in imitation of the Twelve, as was Paul himself” (Eusebius, , Bk. 1, Ch. 12Church History).
“Matthias, who, as has been shown was also one of the Seventy, was chosen to the apostolate” (Eusebius, , Bk. 2, Ch. 1Church History).
“AND the Apostle Peter is a sufficient witness that this prophecy refers to the traitor Judas, when, after the Saviour’s Ascension, all the apostles being gathered together with many of the brethren, he stood up in the midst, and said:
“[Acts 1:16-20]
“Peter, then, in saying thus, suggested that another must be chosen in place of Judas, to fill up the deficient number of the twelve apostles, so that the prophecy might be fulfilled. And when the lot had been cast, it fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the twelve apostles” (Eusebius, , Bk. 10, Ch. 3The Proof of the Gospel).
“His apostles were at that time eleven in number, to whom were added Matthias, in the room of the traitor Judas, and afterwards Paul” (Lactantius, Of the Manner in Which the Persecutors Died).
P
Pete_Holter
Guest
“Judas was degraded from the Apostolical office” (Athanasius, Ad Episcopus Aegypti et Libyae, Ch. 2).
“[A]s one more prophet says, ‘Let his habitation be desolate, and his bishopric let another take’ (Acts 1:20; Ps. 68:26; 108:8), < indicating that Judas died badly >. For ‘he fell down and burst asunder in the midst and all his bowels gushed out’ (Acts 1:18; Matt. 27:5). And as he hanged himself at the last it was evident that he had destroyed his whole salvation, by the forfeiture of his hope through his unruly, reckless plot against his master, and his greedy < turn > to the denial of God. Thus the apostles made Matthias one of them in his stead with the words, “from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place’ (Acts 1:25). And what sort of ‘place’ but the one the Savior had awarded him by calling him a ‘son of perdition?’ For this ‘place of perdition’ was reserved for him in the realm where he obtained a portion in place of a portion and, instead of apostolic office, the place of destruction” (Epiphanius, , 38.8.2Panarion).
“Peter and Andrew, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas, Thaddaeus, James the son of Alphaeus, Judas the son of James and Simon the Zealot, and Matthias who was chosen to make up the number of the Twelve—all these were chosen to be apostles and ‘offer the Gospel’ (Romans 15:16) < throughout > the world, together with Paul, Barnabas and the rest. And with James, the Lord’s brother and the bishop of Jerusalem, [they were chosen] to preside over the mysteries” (Epiphanias, , 79.3.3Panarion).
“And his bishopric let another take; that is, his office, his priesthood.
…]
“[F]or he says not simply, ‘These who have companied with us,’ but, ‘all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John unto that same day that He was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of His resurrection’ (Acts 1:22): that their college (ὁ χορὸς) might not be left mutilated… not increasing the number, but not suffering it to be diminished” (John Chrysostom, Homily 3 on Acts).
“Observe with what exquisite propriety their prayers are framed: thus, when they besought to be shown who was meet for the Apostleship, they said, ‘You, Lord, which know the heart of all men, show’ (Acts 1:24): for it was a subject for Prescience there” (John Chrysostom, Homily 11 on Acts).
“ ‘Then the twelve’ (Acts 6:2), etc. … “[W]hen they were about to ordain Matthias, they first show the necessity of the thing, that one was deficient, and there must needs be twelve” (John Chrysostom, Homily 14 on Acts).
“[A]fter He was received up, Matthias was taken into the number [of the Twelve Apostles]” (John Chrysostom, Homily 38 on First Corinthians).
“For the Apostles, when they elected Matthias, had not yet received the Holy Spirit, but having committed the matter to prayer, they chose him into the number of the Apostles” (John Chrysostom, Homily 5 on First Timothy).
“Our Lord spoke of twelve thrones for the twelve Apostles: one, Judas, fell, and his place being supplied by Matthias, the number of twelve thrones was made up” (Augustine, Exposition on Psalm 87).
“Matthias was ordained an apostle in the room of Judas the traitor” (Augustine, , Bk. 20, Ch. 5The City of God).
“To what, then, refer the words, ‘Are there not twelve hours in the day?’ (John 11:9) Just that to point Himself out as the day, He made choice of twelve disciples. If I am the day, He says, and you the hours, is it for the hours to give counsel to the day? The day is followed by the hours, not the hours by the day. If these, then, were the hours, what in such a reckoning was Judas? Was he also among the twelve hours? If he was an hour, he had light; and if he had light, how was the Day betrayed by him to death? But the Lord, in so speaking, foresaw, not Judas himself, but his successor. For Judas, when he fell, was succeeded by Matthias, and the duodenary number preserved” (Augustine, Tractate 49 on the Gospel of John).
“If everything that the Roman Catholic Church taught were true…”
“[A]s one more prophet says, ‘Let his habitation be desolate, and his bishopric let another take’ (Acts 1:20; Ps. 68:26; 108:8), < indicating that Judas died badly >. For ‘he fell down and burst asunder in the midst and all his bowels gushed out’ (Acts 1:18; Matt. 27:5). And as he hanged himself at the last it was evident that he had destroyed his whole salvation, by the forfeiture of his hope through his unruly, reckless plot against his master, and his greedy < turn > to the denial of God. Thus the apostles made Matthias one of them in his stead with the words, “from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place’ (Acts 1:25). And what sort of ‘place’ but the one the Savior had awarded him by calling him a ‘son of perdition?’ For this ‘place of perdition’ was reserved for him in the realm where he obtained a portion in place of a portion and, instead of apostolic office, the place of destruction” (Epiphanius, , 38.8.2Panarion).
“Peter and Andrew, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas, Thaddaeus, James the son of Alphaeus, Judas the son of James and Simon the Zealot, and Matthias who was chosen to make up the number of the Twelve—all these were chosen to be apostles and ‘offer the Gospel’ (Romans 15:16) < throughout > the world, together with Paul, Barnabas and the rest. And with James, the Lord’s brother and the bishop of Jerusalem, [they were chosen] to preside over the mysteries” (Epiphanias, , 79.3.3Panarion).
“And his bishopric let another take; that is, his office, his priesthood.
…]
“[F]or he says not simply, ‘These who have companied with us,’ but, ‘all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John unto that same day that He was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of His resurrection’ (Acts 1:22): that their college (ὁ χορὸς) might not be left mutilated… not increasing the number, but not suffering it to be diminished” (John Chrysostom, Homily 3 on Acts).
“Observe with what exquisite propriety their prayers are framed: thus, when they besought to be shown who was meet for the Apostleship, they said, ‘You, Lord, which know the heart of all men, show’ (Acts 1:24): for it was a subject for Prescience there” (John Chrysostom, Homily 11 on Acts).
“ ‘Then the twelve’ (Acts 6:2), etc. … “[W]hen they were about to ordain Matthias, they first show the necessity of the thing, that one was deficient, and there must needs be twelve” (John Chrysostom, Homily 14 on Acts).
“[A]fter He was received up, Matthias was taken into the number [of the Twelve Apostles]” (John Chrysostom, Homily 38 on First Corinthians).
“For the Apostles, when they elected Matthias, had not yet received the Holy Spirit, but having committed the matter to prayer, they chose him into the number of the Apostles” (John Chrysostom, Homily 5 on First Timothy).
“Our Lord spoke of twelve thrones for the twelve Apostles: one, Judas, fell, and his place being supplied by Matthias, the number of twelve thrones was made up” (Augustine, Exposition on Psalm 87).
“Matthias was ordained an apostle in the room of Judas the traitor” (Augustine, , Bk. 20, Ch. 5The City of God).
“To what, then, refer the words, ‘Are there not twelve hours in the day?’ (John 11:9) Just that to point Himself out as the day, He made choice of twelve disciples. If I am the day, He says, and you the hours, is it for the hours to give counsel to the day? The day is followed by the hours, not the hours by the day. If these, then, were the hours, what in such a reckoning was Judas? Was he also among the twelve hours? If he was an hour, he had light; and if he had light, how was the Day betrayed by him to death? But the Lord, in so speaking, foresaw, not Judas himself, but his successor. For Judas, when he fell, was succeeded by Matthias, and the duodenary number preserved” (Augustine, Tractate 49 on the Gospel of John).
“If everything that the Roman Catholic Church taught were true…”
I
inkaneer
Guest
Am I to understand that you are referring to the Passage in Rev 21:10-14?
“10 And in the Spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. **12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed; **13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. **14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” **[Rev 21:10-14 RSV]
I haven’t considered the question but maybe you can tell me which two of your fourteen apostles doesn’t have his name inscribed on a foundation? Or Maybe which two of your fourteen apostles doesn’t get thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel?
"Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” [Mt 19:28 RSV]
''that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." [Lu 22:30 RSV]
Or maybe you can tell me which two of your fourteen apostles gets stiffed when it comes to the 24 thrones
“Round the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clad in white garments, with golden crowns upon their heads.” [Rev 4:4 RSV]
The church has always interpreted this as being the 12 OT patriarchs and the 12 NT Apostles. But you got fourteen. Must be that new math.
O
oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
Here are list of the 12 tribes you tell us how they line up.
catholic-resources.org/Bible/History-12Tribes.htm
you will notice that not all the tribes are counted all the time.
I
inkaneer
Guest
Looks like spomeone wants to take this thread off topic. I wonder why? Could it be they got too many Apostles and not enough foundation or thrones???
I
inkaneer
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
That’s right an Apostle cannot succeed another Apostle but a bishop can. Is that not what the church teaches in its doctrine of Apostolic Succession or are you saying I am wrong about that too?
So according to you, in Acts 1:15-26 you have a scriptural precedent of an apostle [Matthias] succeeding another apostle [Judas]. But according to me, in Acts 1:15-26 we have the scriptural precedent of the Apostles consecrating a bishop thereby leaving the position of Apostle to be filled by Christ with the calling and sending of Paul. According to you only eleven apostles were sent by Christ. According to me 12 apostles were sent by Christ. Since Acts 1:15-26 is a scriptural precedent then according to you the other Apostles have to be succeeded by an Apostle. But according to me they appoint bishop to succeed them. Now which is correct according to the Church?
The Catechism states in Para 1576 the following:
“1576 **Since the sacrament of Holy Orders is the sacrament of the apostolic ministry, it is for the bishops as the successors of the apostles to hand on the “gift of the Spirit,” **the “apostolic line.” Validly ordained bishops, i.e., those who are in the line of apostolic succession, validly confer the three degrees of the sacrament of Holy Orders.”
Then there is Para 1555:
"1555 "Amongst those various offices which have been exercised in the Church from the earliest times the chief place, according to the witness of tradition, is held by the function of those who, through their appointment to the dignity and responsibility of bishop, and in virtue consequently of the unbroken succession going back to the beginning, are regarded as transmitters of the apostolic line."
And Para 938
“938 The Bishops, established by the Holy Spirit, succeed the apostles. They are ‘the visible source and foundation of unity in their own particular Churches’”
I should have listed the last one first. Do you think?
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
That’s right an Apostle cannot succeed another Apostle but a bishop can. Is that not what the church teaches in its doctrine of Apostolic Succession or are you saying I am wrong about that too?
You guys keep running around in circles. Now your alleging I said something which I never said. In the above quote from me I was using your logic to show how your logic was not logical. You are the ones claiming that both Judas and Matthias were apostles, not me. If you recall I’m the one who said that neither were Apostles. I’m the one who said that Judas was called by Christ but committed suicide before he ‘was sent’ I’m the one who said Matthias was neither called by Christ nor sent. I’m the one who said Paul was both called and sent by Christ. Now, are we clear on that???
So according to you, in Acts 1:15-26 you have a scriptural precedent of an apostle [Matthias] succeeding another apostle [Judas]. But according to me, in Acts 1:15-26 we have the scriptural precedent of the Apostles consecrating a bishop thereby leaving the position of Apostle to be filled by Christ with the calling and sending of Paul. According to you only eleven apostles were sent by Christ. According to me 12 apostles were sent by Christ. Since Acts 1:15-26 is a scriptural precedent then according to you the other Apostles have to be succeeded by an Apostle. But according to me they appoint bishop to succeed them. Now which is correct according to the Church?
The Catechism states in Para 1576 the following:
“1576 **Since the sacrament of Holy Orders is the sacrament of the apostolic ministry, it is for the bishops as the successors of the apostles to hand on the “gift of the Spirit,” **the “apostolic line.” Validly ordained bishops, i.e., those who are in the line of apostolic succession, validly confer the three degrees of the sacrament of Holy Orders.”
Then there is Para 1555:
"1555 "Amongst those various offices which have been exercised in the Church from the earliest times the chief place, according to the witness of tradition, is held by the function of those who, through their appointment to the dignity and responsibility of bishop, and in virtue consequently of the unbroken succession going back to the beginning, are regarded as transmitters of the apostolic line."
And Para 938
“938 The Bishops, established by the Holy Spirit, succeed the apostles. They are ‘the visible source and foundation of unity in their own particular Churches’”
I should have listed the last one first. Do you think?
I
inkaneer
Guest
You know you should read whatever links you are going to use before posting them. It might save you some embarassment. I went to the link ypou posted and read this:
“The Bible contains about two dozen listings of the twelve sons of Jacob and/or tribes of Israel. Some of these are in very brief lists, while others are spread out over several paragraphs or chapters that discuss the distribution of the land or name certain representatives of each tribe, one after another. **Surprisingly, however, each and every listing is slightly different from all the others, either in the order of the names mentioned or even in the specific names used **”
Now the important thing is that while the Bible is not consistent in the names of the twelve tribes it is entirely consistent in saying that there are twelve tribes. No mention of thirteen tribes or fourteen tribes is there? No one is disagreeing with the Scriptures that there are 12 tribes. But you are disagreeing with the scriptures as well as the Church that there are twelve apostles.
N
NotWorthy
Guest
So, maybe I was unclear.
How can a bishop succeed an Apostle who was not an Apostle? Bishops can only succeed bishops or Apostles, and YOU claim that Judas was not an Apostle, only a Novitiate (your words).
Also, what diocese belonged to Matthias? Bishops were chosen to represent the Church in a city (later called diocese).
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