Maverick priest

[EasterJoy]

Honestly, a well-catechized Catholic does not need baptism classes or marriage preparation classes. They need the sacraments. These are sacraments for fully-initiated adults. It is not a dereliction of duty to elect not to try to prepare for them by adding the small amount of catechesis that is usually offered. The classes are not useless, I wouldn’t say any pastor is wrong to offer them, since these are excellent opportunities for exhortation and reminders of what the candidates or sponsors ought to know already, but a pastor who sees limited value in them isn’t automatically some kind of “maverick”.

I would hope, by the way, that priest did inquire whether the Catholics involved had been confirmed. The Sacraments of Initiation, which is to say baptism after the age of reason, Eucharist, and Confirmation, are a different story, in terms of catechesis. Initiates need training, and so it would be worrisome if there were not substantial training in preparation for these sacraments. Generally speaking, training for the Sacrament of Reconciliation is usually included with preparation for the Sacraments of Initiation.

If the mother believes that her son’s marriage needs help, she can offer to send him to a Marriage Encounter weekend. Many of the parishes I know have the couples to be wed go to an Engaged Encounter, and that is pretty much what they get for marriage preparation.

 

[vstead]

I can relate to the original posters first post. We have met with the preist about three times and no classes or anythinhg like that. I would not call him a maverick, we live in a very rural area and it is tight knit church, I guess things are done a little different than in the city.

I agree.

 

[EasterJoy]

I can relate to the original posters first post. We have met with the preist about three times and no classes or anythinhg like that. I would not call him a maverick, we live in a very rural area and it is tight knit church, I guess things are done a little different than in the city.

It is sometimes presumed in rural parishes that everyone teethed on a dog-eared copy of the Baltimore Catechism, because sometimes nearly everyone has.

 

[vstead]

QUOTE=EasterJoy;10325500]Honestly, a well-catechized Catholic does not need baptism classes or marriage preparation classes…

What about a non-catechized non practicing catholic? And his non-practicing church of England fiance?

 

[EasterJoy]

EasterJoy;10325500:

Honestly, a well-catechized Catholic does not need baptism classes or marriage preparation classes…

What about a non-catechized non practicing catholic? And his non-practicing church of England fiance?

Well, the issue is that the priest of a traditional rural parish may be presuming that the parish does not have any non-catechized Catholics. As one poster pointed out, after all, it would be pretty rich for a mother to protest that a priest must be some kind of a “maverick” because he presumed that the groom’s Catholic mother had taken her promises seriously at the boy’s baptism, and had him properly catechized about marriage before he ever left her nest. If he is satisfied himself with the couple’s understanding of what they’re undertaking, he might well tell the groom’s mother that if she thinks her son needs to know more about the Church’s teachings on marriage, it is not too late for her to get going with her duty to see that he is taught that.

Having said that, she would do well to find out what the priest asked her son and the non-Catholic spouse with regards to their understanding of marriage, including the questions posed on the paperwork for the diocese. He could not presume that the non-Catholic had any understanding of what Catholics understand the vows to mean, so he needs to make sure she didn’t just check off boxes that she thought the Church wanted her to check off. He does have the duty to make sure both parties understand the vows they plan to make, in order to make sure the marriage will be valid. Provided that the couple responds in the affirmative to a relatively small number of questions, though, that doesn’t take a class.

 

[vstead]

Well, the issue is that the priest of a traditional rural parish may be presuming that the parish does not have any non-catechized Catholics.

We live in different worlds. My parish priest will tell you that the local people, in order to get their children into the ‘school next door’ have their children christened then disappear once they get their school place. The children go to church only for school functions and he never sees the parents again. Then some years later, still living in the area, same people turn up asking to be married at the church. He sees the parents again for the wedding day. Then a few years later, they turn up with their own child to be christened.
Now, although this goes on, our priest gives them a mountain of classes before he’ll perform the sacraments. And also confession.

Its because of the lack of education involved that mum feels these are the people who need it most.
Now back to her own situation. Although she educated her children from birth, there’s little you can do with a grown man who chooses otherwise. She knows its in there somewhere but she doesnt distinquish between him and the people above.

 

[EasterJoy]

Well, the issue is that the priest of a traditional rural parish may be presuming that the parish does not have any non-catechized Catholics.–EasterJoy

We live in different worlds. My parish priest will tell you that the local people, in order to get their children into the ‘school next door’ have their children christened then disappear once they get their school place. The children go to church only for school functions and he never sees the parents again. Then some years later, still living in the area, same people turn up asking to be married at the church. He sees the parents again for the wedding day. Then a few years later, they turn up with their own child to be christened.
Now, although this goes on, our priest gives them a mountain of classes before he’ll perform the sacraments. And also confession.

Its because of the lack of education involved that mum feels these are the people who need it most.
Now back to her own situation. Although she educated her children from birth, there’s little you can do with a grown man who chooses otherwise. She knows its in there somewhere but she doesnt distinquish between him and the people above.

Your priest is not giving a mountain of evidence that the classes are having the needed effect. I wouldn’t use his experience to criticize a priest who doesn’t believe that three or six more hours of classes are going to change things.

If this mother couldn’t put understanding into her son in 18 years, how much is a priest going to manage in 3 hours? In six? She at least put it into his head to go to a priest when he decided to marry, even if to a non-Catholic. She did something right. So although I’m a very big fan of continuing adult education, I’m not ready to take the leap and say that someone is a “maverick” because he has concluded that marriage classes are a waste of time for those who don’t jump on the chance when you mention that such a thing exists. He may have concluded that marriage is a right of the faithful (it is), and judged for himself which conditions he feels justified in adding into marriage preparations…that is, he may not require classes as proof that the couple was properly disposed to receive the Sacrament.

I do have this thought to add, though. In the end, the amount of preparation in these cases is not yours or mine to decide, but the bishop’s. If the bishop says that those with the right to the sacraments must nevertheless have such-and-so preparation in advance, unless their pastor gives evidence that just cause excuses them, in order to satisfy the bishop that the faithful are well-disposed when they receive the sacraments (as is his right and duty), and this priest is just ignoring his bishop’s directives, then that’s something that Mum can use to address the situation. She can look into what the diocese requires, and find out if her son got it. If not, then she can ask the priest about that. It may be that her son is not a good historian when it comes to relating his conversations with this priest, though, so she ought to go in with the attitude that something has probably been lost in translation, in order to give priest and this couple the benefit of the doubt. Charity would require that. Maybe that idea helps, though?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

We live in different worlds. My parish priest will tell you that the local people, in order to get their children into the ‘school next door’ have their children christened then disappear once they get their school place. The children go to church only for school functions and he never sees the parents again. Then some years later, still living in the area, same people turn up asking to be married at the church. He sees the parents again for the wedding day. Then a few years later, they turn up with their own child to be christened.
Now, although this goes on, our priest gives them a mountain of classes before he’ll perform the sacraments. And also confession.

Its because of the lack of education involved that mum feels these are the people who need it most.
Now back to her own situation. Although she educated her children from birth, there’s little you can do with a grown man who chooses otherwise. She knows its in there somewhere but she doesnt distinquish between him and the people above.

May I give you a tip on your “quote” problem? You are removing the HTML tags when you reply. The two tags you need look like this - before the quoted portion you will see **

vstead:
and after the quote ****** without the spaces I added. If you lose any part of those tags to enclose the quote, things get confusing. So just leave the quoted portion alone, and post below it. HTH.

 

[vstead]

May I give you a tip on your “quote” problem? You are removing the HTML tags when you reply. The two tags you need look like this - before the quoted portion you will see **

vstead:
** and after the quote **** without the spaces I added. If you lose any part of those tags to enclose the quote, things get confusing. So just leave the quoted portion alone, and post below it. HTH.

Thank-you, thank you thank you.

 

[vstead]

On the contrary. I know a few people who after growing up non practicing, turned up at church and after classes for marriage, said they felt a sense of family and looked forward to their next encounter. How they practiced, I don’t know but a seed was sewn surely.
Lets just leave mother and son for a minute. A friend who does not believe in God turns up at church to enquire about marriage in church. As before. she went to local catholic school. She told me wedding was booked, she said 'Its a good job I got confirmed at school as my live in boyfriend of 5 years isn’t. Please believe me when I tell you she has no understanding of any of the sacraments. She joked about the marriage ‘working’ but was genuinely shocked when I said ‘You do know you cant divorce!’ Her response: ‘Well how did my mum manage it.’ - Her mum was married in a registry office.
I agree with mum that this has to be a total nonsense. The church is being used by some people, just for a nice day out. They’ve had little or no RE at all.
I don’t agree that because these people are totally in the dark on RE that there’s not much point in bothering to start now. Just a simple chat about the meaning of marriage etc could make a world of difference.

 

[vstead]

May I give you a tip on your “quote” problem? You are removing the HTML tags when you reply. The two tags you need look like this - before the quoted portion you will see **

vstead:
** and after the quote **** without the spaces I added. If you lose any part of those tags to enclose the quote, things get confusing. So just leave the quoted portion alone, and post below it. HTH.

How do I highlight and answer multiple questions in the same post?
Kind regards

 

[vstead]

Your priest is not giving a mountain of evidence that the classes are having the needed effect. I wouldn’t use his experience to criticize a priest who doesn’t believe that three or six more hours of classes are going to change things.

If this mother couldn’t put understanding into her son in 18 years, how much is a priest going to manage in 3 hours? In six? She at least put it into his head to go to a priest when he decided to marry, even if to a non-Catholic. She did something right. So although I’m a very big fan of continuing adult education, I’m not ready to take the leap and say that someone is a “maverick” because he has concluded that marriage classes are a waste of time for those who don’t jump on the chance when you mention that such a thing exists. He may have concluded that marriage is a right of the faithful (it is), and judged for himself which conditions he feels justified in adding into marriage preparations…that is, he may not require classes as proof that the couple was properly disposed to receive the Sacrament.

I do have this thought to add, though. In the end, the amount of preparation in these cases is not yours or mine to decide, but the bishop’s. If the bishop says that those with the right to the sacraments must nevertheless have such-and-so preparation in advance, unless their pastor gives evidence that just cause excuses them, in order to satisfy the bishop that the faithful are well-disposed when they receive the sacraments (as is his right and duty), and this priest is just ignoring his bishop’s directives, then that’s something that Mum can use to address the situation. She can look into what the diocese requires, and find out if her son got it. If not, then she can ask the priest about that. It may be that her son is not a good historian when it comes to relating his conversations with this priest, though, so she ought to go in with the attitude that something has probably been lost in translation, in order to give priest and this couple the benefit of the doubt. Charity would require that. Maybe that idea helps, though?

Back to mother and son though. I just looked up ‘cafeteria catholic’ and this would it seems fit the son. I have no doubt mother educated as best she could, as well as working full-time and raising five children. And she hasn’t given up.
I sense that you are in agreement as you are finding it hard to believe that no religious conversation took place. I’ll be more than happy to report a 2nd meeting before the nuptials.
Thank-you for taking an interest I think the best defence I have for ‘maverick’ is that his jovial, soccer loving, ‘down with the kids’ kind of approach has worked. Maybe once through the door as non practicing or non catholic, he thinks, rather than scare them off with classes straight away, lets welcome them with open arms and the education can follow.
Kind regards

 

[EasterJoy]

Back to mother and son though. I just looked up ‘cafeteria catholic’ and this would it seems fit the son. I have no doubt mother educated as best she could, as well as working full-time and raising five children. And she hasn’t given up.
I sense that you are in agreement as you are finding it hard to believe that no religious conversation took place. I’ll be more than happy to report a 2nd meeting before the nuptials.
Thank-you for taking an interest I think the best defence I have for ‘maverick’ is that his jovial, soccer loving, ‘down with the kids’ kind of approach has worked. Maybe once through the door as non practicing or non catholic, he thinks, rather than scare them off with classes straight away, lets welcome them with open arms and the education can follow.
Kind regards

Oh, who knows. I know enough priests to know that what they tell people and what comes back as the “street version” of what they said can be wildly different, just like any other third-hand account, particularly when someone in the chain has a vested interest in “cherry picking”. Still, if the priest is not following the letter of the bishop’s law, the mother of the groom could make inquiries about whether her son has been doing some cherry-picking concerning what Fr. Jovial told him and his fiancé. After all, if Father gave instructions about what the bride and groom need to do, and they’re blowing him off or giving a skewed account to third parties of what he said, he might be very interested to know that. I’d think he’d deserve to know that. I don’t think it is trouble-making in this case to close the communication loop, since it is possible that he is still in a position to address the situation. Who knows, it could save the groom from finding that even Fr. Jovial will refuse to do a wedding when the day comes, if the bride and groom haven’t kept their promises to him.

If the priest is operating within the rules of the diocese for marriage preparation, though, I don’t know that the mother of the groom can do much about it, except maybe to buy the couple some good books on the subject. She could also look up the statistics for her son; I think that the studies show that formal marriage preparation does cut divorce rates substantially, if only by helping people to either go in knowing what they’re in for or else to call things off while they still can. Engaged Encounter does not require a referral from the parish. You can just call up and schedule to be at a retreat (and agree to pay the fee). Mom can reassure her daughter-in-law-to-be that these events are very used to mixed marriages, and give couples a chance to talk about that, too.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

May I give you a tip on your “quote” problem? You are removing the HTML tags when you reply. The two tags you need look like this - before the quoted portion you will see **

How do I highlight and answer multiple questions in the same post?
Kind regards**

You’re still doing something wrong. But to multi-quote there is a little button on the very bottom right of each post. Click it and it goes red. Click the next one, and it will go red. Keep going until you get to the last post you want to quote and click the regular “Quote” button on that one, and all of them will show up. Don’t answer inside those quotes, pay attention to the [bracketed sections] and answer each quote between it and the next one.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

On the contrary. I know a few people who after growing up non practicing, turned up at church and after classes for marriage, said they felt a sense of family and looked forward to their next encounter. How they practiced, I don’t know but a seed was sewn surely.
Lets just leave mother and son for a minute. A friend who does not believe in God turns up at church to enquire about marriage in church. As before. she went to local catholic school. She told me wedding was booked, she said 'Its a good job I got confirmed at school as my live in boyfriend of 5 years isn’t. Please believe me when I tell you she has no understanding of any of the sacraments. She joked about the marriage ‘working’ but was genuinely shocked when I said ‘You do know you cant divorce!’ Her response: ‘Well how did my mum manage it.’ - Her mum was married in a registry office.
I agree with mum that this has to be a total nonsense. The church is being used by some people, just for a nice day out. They’ve had little or no RE at all.
I don’t agree that because these people are totally in the dark on RE that there’s not much point in bothering to start now. Just a simple chat about the meaning of marriage etc could make a world of difference.

Like this. ^ that was one quote.

Back to mother and son though. I just looked up ‘cafeteria catholic’ and this would it seems fit the son. I have no doubt mother educated as best she could, as well as working full-time and raising five children. And she hasn’t given up.
I sense that you are in agreement as you are finding it hard to believe that no religious conversation took place. I’ll be more than happy to report a 2nd meeting before the nuptials.
Thank-you for taking an interest I think the best defence I have for ‘maverick’ is that his jovial, soccer loving, ‘down with the kids’ kind of approach has worked. Maybe once through the door as non practicing or non catholic, he thinks, rather than scare them off with classes straight away, lets welcome them with open arms and the education can follow.
Kind regards

This is the next quote.

Oh, who knows. I know enough priests to know that what they tell people and what comes back as the “street version” of what they said can be wildly different, just like any other third-hand account, particularly when someone in the chain has a vested interest in “cherry picking”. Still, if the priest is not following the letter of the bishop’s law, the mother of the groom could make inquiries about whether her son has been doing some cherry-picking concerning what Fr. Jovial told him and his fiancé. After all, if Father gave instructions about what the bride and groom need to do, and they’re blowing him off or giving a skewed account to third parties of what he said, he might be very interested to know that. I’d think he’d deserve to know that. I don’t think it is trouble-making in this case to close the communication loop, since it is possible that he is still in a position to address the situation. Who knows, it could save the groom from finding that even Fr. Jovial will refuse to do a wedding when the day comes, if the bride and groom haven’t kept their promises to him.

If the priest is operating within the rules of the diocese for marriage preparation, though, I don’t know that the mother of the groom can do much about it, except maybe to buy the couple some good books on the subject. She could also look up the statistics for her son; I think that the studies show that formal marriage preparation does cut divorce rates substantially, if only by helping people to either go in knowing what they’re in for or else to call things off while they still can. Engaged Encounter does not require a referral from the parish. You can just call up and schedule to be at a retreat (and agree to pay the fee). Mom can reassure her daughter-in-law-to-be that these events are very used to mixed marriages, and give couples a chance to talk about that, too.

And this is the last quote.

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