May Catholics support 'compromise' abortion legislation?

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Fr David, do people in your experience actually ‘support’ abortion? Or do they think on average, rather, that it is a necessary evil, that women who have abortions should not be criminalised, and that abortions that are done should be done only after appropriate counseling and in safe facilities?
Not Father, however, killing of a child is not a “necessary evil”.

Abortion providers should be treated as criminals, not the poor women who are victims, they need counseling and love and support.

There is never a safe abortion, at least one person involved winds up dead.

The views you express are pro abortion views. You cannot be for something and against the same thing. Either you are for abortions or you are against them.
 
Not Father, however, killing of a child is not a “necessary evil”.

Abortion providers should be treated as criminals, not the poor women who are victims, they need counseling and love and support.

There is never a safe abortion, at least one person involved winds up dead.

The views you express are pro abortion views. You cannot be for something and against the same thing. Either you are for abortions or you are against them.
I am not sure that the logic in your last sentence stands up. You can be for some wars and against others; for some executions and against others; for some surgical procedures and against others. we agree about the criminalization of women, although I do not consider them to be universal victims in the sense you mean.
 
I find it interesting that you bring up “after appropriate counseling” because the Church has in fact long supported laws that require “appropriate counseling” but the pro-abortion organizations are the ones who oppose it because it might lead to a mother deciding not to have abortions.
Well, I am sure that where the profit motive exists all sorts of people will do immoral things, but I think the debate over counseling goes like this: Pro-life people want couselling to try to persuade women not to abort. Pro choice want counseling but only of the normal doctor-patient type, augmented as necessary, because they do not want women pressured to make a choice against their best judgement. I think that abortion is a special case, so I am not with the pro-choice position on this one, but I think the criteria should be ‘informed consent’ and the information should be objective and complete. For example, i see no reason why scans should not be shown, but I also think the tiny size of the fetus should be shown, as should the difference in brain waves between an older child and an earlier fetus. So the sort of counselling I understand some pro-lifers have in mind is not something I support either.
 
I am not sure that the logic in your last sentence stands up. You can be for some wars and against others; for some executions and against others; for some surgical procedures and against others. we agree about the criminalization of women, although I do not consider them to be universal victims in the sense you mean.
You cannot be a little pregnant. You are pregnant or you are not.

Abortion is a moral issue. One is for slavery or against, one is for adultery or against, One is for rape or against, one is for murder or against, one is for abortion or against.
 
DETAILS: Glenn to kick off “We are all Catholics now” movement

For the past few weeks Glenn has been focused on raising awareness on the persecution of Catholics being carried out by the Obama administration. According to the new healthcare laws that were a cornerstone of the Obama administration, employers affiliated with the Catholic Church will have to include free birth control in their health insurance plans, a mandate that runs contrary to both Catholic doctrine as well as religious freedoms granted by the Constitution. Today he is going a step beyond raising awareness by providing action steps for what you can do.
On radio, Glenn kicked ”We are all Catholics now” movement focused on organizing people to contact their Senators and ask them to vote for a Conscience Protection measure is planned to appear as an amendment to the Highway Transportation bill. The amendment is being offered by Sen. Roy Blunt (R-MO).

more…
 
While at the same time, opposing Catholics providing such counseling: lifenews.com/2007/03/19/int-221/
That’s not what the article says.

Here’s a quote
But the program also involves issued a certificate allowing the abortion if the counseling doesn’t persuade the woman to keep her baby. The Vatican sees that as an endorsement of abortion and a violation of the pro-life teachings of the church.

The Church is not opposed to the counseling, as you are trying to imply. The opposition is to issuing a certificate that permits an abortion to go forward.
 
The Church is not opposed to the counseling, as you are trying to imply. The opposition is to issuing a certificate that permits an abortion to go forward.
Which pretty much destroys the whole idea.

If a woman wants to have an abortion, she must produce a certificate. To obtain the certificate, she must undergo counseling. The point of the counseling is to dissuade her from obtaining an abortion. So why would a woman who considers an abortion go to a counselor who cannot give her the certificate? It makes no sense!

The woman is already on the path to abortion, and the whole point is to put a counselor on that path, in hope that the counselor can turn her around. What Vatican did, was, in effect, saying that the counselor cannot be put on that woman’s path – the place where (s)he is needed the most – because counselor’s failure to dissuade her would enable an abortion. That’s akin to saying that you cannot preach to sinners, because you cooperate in damnation of those who failed to convert.

The Vatican’s decision has basically separated Catholic counselors from the very women they were supposed to help. Actually no, it was much worse, because removing Catholic counsellors from the market means that woman is more likely to encounter a pro-abortion activist who will basically stamp her paperwork without even talking to her.

How, on Earth, can an abortion provider verify that the woman underwent the required counseling without some kind of cetificate, token, database entry or whatever? It’s impossible, unless they keep a counsellor on payroll… and that’s a very bad idea for obvious reasons.

As usual, blind adherence to the letter of the Cathehism trumps common sense.
 
There is really no one answer to that question. People “in my experience” have expressed a wide range of views, from one extreme to the other of this issue.

The Church doesn’t advocate criminalizing women who have abortions. In fact, the Church recognizes that the mothers are victims as well as the babies. (and at the risk of taking us off topic, excommunication is not the same as criminalizing).

Making it illegal for medical staff to perform an immoral procedure is not necessarily the same thing as making it a crime for the victim. Not everything that is illegal is necessarily criminal.

I find it interesting that you bring up “after appropriate counseling” because the Church has in fact long supported laws that require “appropriate counseling” but the pro-abortion organizations are the ones who oppose it because it might lead to a mother deciding not to have abortions.

The “safe facilities” is a non-starter. If something should not be happening in the first place, the fact that it’s happening in a “safe facility” makes it no better. It’s also ironic that some people use the term “safe facility” to describe a place specifically designed for the killing of human persons. How in the world anyone can call that “safe” is beyond me.
Also, abortion providers are not safe for women either. Many women are harmed permanently and many have died in these “safe facilities.”

911 calls from abortion clinics
 
Are you pro abortion?
You listed a big bunch of situations where you imply abortion should be legal. Pro one single abortion you are pro all of them.
You cannot be a little pregnant and you cannot be a little pro abortion.
BTW- I work and am a mother and a volunteer and I do not live on the forums. I respond when I have time.
Let’s follow this logic out.

I think it is OK to shoot someone if they have a gun pointed at me. This means I must be OK with shooting anyone, right? of course not,that is absurd.

If someone is OK with an abortion to save a woman’s life, that is not the same as being OK with an abortion that does not save a woman’s life, any more than shooting an innocent person is the same as shooting someone in self defense.
 
Let’s follow this logic out.

I think it is OK to shoot someone if they have a gun pointed at me. This means I must be OK with shooting anyone, right? of course not,that is absurd.

If someone is OK with an abortion to save a woman’s life, that is not the same as being OK with an abortion that does not save a woman’s life, any more than shooting an innocent person is the same as shooting someone in self defense.
I suppose that would depend upon the definition of what it means to “save a women’s life”. Let’s set aside all the legimate medical issues that can be taken into account for the moment (such as cancer treatment). That’s a whole other discussion.

Some (and I’m not saying you in particular) would have us believe that “saving a woman’s life” means that she shouldn’t have her current lifestyle impacted by a “parasite” that will drain her of physical and emotional resources. IMHO, there can be no compromise with this line of thinking.
 
Let’s follow this logic out.

I think it is OK to shoot someone if they have a gun pointed at me. This means I must be OK with shooting anyone, right? of course not,that is absurd.

If someone is OK with an abortion to save a woman’s life, that is not the same as being OK with an abortion that does not save a woman’s life, any more than shooting an innocent person is the same as shooting someone in self defense.
Just because pope “you” thinks it is okay to shoot someone does not make it okay. Same with abortion, sounds like you are your very own magusterium!
 
Regardless of the legal status of abortion, the choice to have an abortion is and always will be a choice. If the ultimate goal of the pro-life movement is to end abortion completely, then the pro-life cause will go on indefinitely; it will never end. Right or wrong, moral or immoral, legal or illegal, the reality is that abortions will happen one way or another and it will always be a matter of choice.

I strongly disagree with the Catholic Church’s moral stance on the use of condoms and contraceptives. My understanding of church teaching is that it is just as immoral to use contraceptives as it is to have an abortion. Is that accurate? I don’t have a problem with the church preaching abstinence as long as they do not expect people to actually practice abstinence. In the real world, people have sex. It’s one of the things we humans do best and enjoy the most. Right or wrong, moral or immoral, that’s just the way things are.

In a perfect world there would be no such thing as abortion. But we have to do the best we can with the imperfect world we have. Eventually that is going to mean compromise. On the abortion issue, I think contraceptives might be a good place to start looking for a middle ground.
 
Sincere thanks to Fr David for those resources - I’m very obliged.

By the way, when I spoke of ‘compromise’, I meant that in the sense of holding onto one’s commitment that abortion is an immense evil that can never be justified, and working towards the goal of a world free of abortion (and the perceived need for them), as opposed to constantly shooting for that goal and not scoring for the foreseeable future (while babies continue to be killed in utero).

Hearty thanks once again. God bless!
 
Just because pope “you” thinks it is okay to shoot someone does not make it okay. Same with abortion, sounds like you are your very own magusterium!
I never claimed any abortions were acceptable.

I just challenged the claim that, just because a previous poster thought some abortions were acceptable, it meant all abortions are acceptable. Just like someone can believe taking life can be justified in only certain situations, someone can believe abortion is justified only in certain situations. Whether or not that person is in full agreement with the Pope is not the topic of the conversation.

And, for the record, I was talking only about pregnancies which, if carried to term, would literally kill the mother, not ones which simply change her lifestyle. If one can justify killing another human being with a gun to save their own life, certainly that person can justify killing another human being with an implement for abortion to save their own life. Neither of those cases means that person believes that taking life in any situation is acceptable.
 
I strongly disagree with the Catholic Church’s moral stance on the use of condoms and contraceptives. My understanding of church teaching is that it is just as immoral to use contraceptives as it is to have an abortion. Is that accurate? I don’t have a problem with the church preaching abstinence as long as they do not expect people to actually practice abstinence. In the real world, people have sex. It’s one of the things we humans do best and enjoy the most. Right or wrong, moral or immoral, that’s just the way things are.

In a perfect world there would be no such thing as abortion. But we have to do the best we can with the imperfect world we have. Eventually that is going to mean compromise. On the abortion issue, I think contraceptives might be a good place to start looking for a middle ground.
People do a lot of things that are morally culpable. Do them every day. As Jesus said “Even the just man sins seven times a day”. So, in using contraceptives we sin against Divine Providence. Why is it so hard for people to acknowledge that? Possibly, one supposes, for the same reason it’s hard to acknowledge that we chisled our employer by using the computer for private correspondence. Possibly for the same reason one finds it hard to admit that one has lusted. Possibly for the same reason one finds it hard to acknowledge that one does not really sacrifice for the needy of the world.

We’re full of rationalizations, and certainly not only as regards contraception. But the first step in the direction of personal holiness is admitting our faults. Remember the Pharisee and the Publican in the temple? The Pharisee was absolutely persuaded that he was just perfect. The Publican (who probably sinned nowhere near as much as the Pharisee) admitted his sinfulness and asked forgiveness.

Lots of pride going on out there. Lot’s of “I will not serve.”
 
Fr David, do people in your experience actually ‘support’ abortion? Or do they think on average, rather, that it is a necessary evil, that women who have abortions should not be criminalised, and that abortions that are done should be done only after appropriate counseling and in safe facilities?
You’re disillusioned. Nobody here has made such a claim. I don’t think I’ve seen a post on this forum that targets the women who have abortions, demonizes them, and demands they be charged as criminals. At least, if they have, they have done so not in accordance with the Church. Contrastingly, I’ve seen many suggestions that doctors who perform the abortions should be criminalized and tossed in jail. But you’re preconceived notions of Catholic social doctrine are so strong that you will maintain your opinion of us no matter what.
 
Salvete all…

From what I understand, some compromises in abortion legislation may be necessary to as stepping-stones to a complete end to abortion, with the exception of:


  1. *]Unequal treatment of preborn children by allowing for abortion below a certain gestational age, allowing abortion of infants with certain defects, etc.
    *]‘Life’ and ‘health’ exceptions.

    I found these exceptions in Chapter Three of a book called The Facts of Life by Dr Paul Clowes, which has the approval of the late Fr Paul Marx OSB.

    Does anyone know of other, ecclesiastic sources which state the same or otherwise?

  1. Would JPII, Evangelium vitae, #73 qualify?
    “A particular problem of conscience can arise in cases where a legislative vote would be decisive for the passage of a more restrictive law, aimed at limiting the number of authorized abortions, in place of a more permissive law already passed or ready to be voted on. Such cases are not infrequent. . . . In a case like the one just mentioned, when it is not possible to overturn or completely abrogate a pro-abortion law, an elected official, whose absolute personal opposition to procured abortion was well known, could licitly support proposals aimed at limiting the harm done by such a law and at lessening its negative consequences at the level of general opinion and public morality. This does not in fact represent an illicit cooperation with an unjust law, but rather a legitimate and proper attempt to limit its evil aspects.”
 
Would JPII, Evangelium vitae, #73 qualify?
“A particular problem of conscience can arise in cases where a legislative vote would be decisive for the passage of a more restrictive law, aimed at limiting the number of authorized abortions, in place of a more permissive law already passed or ready to be voted on. Such cases are not infrequent. . . . In a case like the one just mentioned, when it is not possible to overturn or completely abrogate a pro-abortion law, an elected official, whose absolute personal opposition to procured abortion was well known, could licitly support proposals aimed at limiting the harm done by such a law and at lessening its negative consequences at the level of general opinion and public morality. This does not in fact represent an illicit cooperation with an unjust law, but rather a legitimate and proper attempt to limit its evil aspects.”
Good answer! 😉
 
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