C
Coder
Guest
He claims to share Catholic values:
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
C
Coder
Guest
This is the link to the above article:
stnews.org/Commentary-2896.htm
Hopefully this example might provide insight into the moral dilemna or show us ways that we can promote the pro-life cause.
stnews.org/Commentary-2896.htm
Hopefully this example might provide insight into the moral dilemna or show us ways that we can promote the pro-life cause.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
And if this guy were running an abortion clinic and I were a pizza delivery guy, I wouldn’t deliver pizza to him.Father Pavone discussed not providing services to abortion clinics as a way of combatting the evil of abortion. Our goal is a pro-life society - we want our actions to be pro-life. Perhaps it’s acceptable to take the picture - I don’t know all the details. However, it seems to be in the wrong direction when our goal is to promote pro-life. That’s why I say, maybe we should start am email campaign to notify the man that his support for ebryonic stem cell research is wrong.
But that’s not the case here. All that the job requires is to take a picture of the man. The OP is not being asked to write an article about him, or support his views. For all we know, the article the picture is to accompany may be a refutation of this guy’s views.
M
Magicsilence
Guest
You wouldnt deliver the pizza?And if this guy were running an abortion clinic and I were a pizza delivery guy, I wouldn’t deliver pizza to him.
But that’s not the case here. All that the job requires is to take a picture of the man. The OP is not being asked to write an article about him, or support his views. For all we know, the article the picture is to accompany may be a refutation of this guy’s views.
Who are we to judge all these people?
They are not asking us to condone their activities, are they?
Would you not give help to a woman giving birth because she supported abortion?
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
What part of Catholic teaching says I must suspend my critical faculties and give aid and comfort to those who commit henious crimes?You wouldnt deliver the pizza?
Who are we to judge all these people?
In point of fact, they are. One plank of a major party platform calls for taxpayer-supported abortions. You can’t get much more condonment than paying for it.They are not asking us to condone their activities, are they?
Does the baby support abortion? Of course not!Would you not give help to a woman giving birth because she supported abortion?
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
Maybe I’d deliver the pizza, but first make the sign of the cross on the box with holy water, and a prayer that whover eats of this box will be nourished in their spirit as well as their bodies.
We have many spiritual weapons that are more powerful than the standard human results of “starve the enemy and flush him out.” Christ said to love the enemy. As far as I know He died for those in the clinic as well, for they know not what they do. Are they not among the least of Christ’s brothers? I’d buy lunch for an abortion worker if they’d sit down and eat with me – I would simply be there and remain silent as possible and allow the spirit to work through our presence.
Yes, I would deliver the pizza with a prayer and a blessing, and maybe even sneak in a sincere (and not condescending) “may God bless you sir/ma’am” as I turned to leave. This will heap burning coals on the enemy, as their hearts will recognize this love and be amazed by it. This can all happen “below the radar” and if we behave in accordance with the fruits of the spirit, there is no law against them and they cannot even know what sort of inroads we are making spiritually because they cannot detect our resistance. This is why the second coming will be like a thief in the night. He won’t fix people by coercion, but by invitation to join in true unconditional love.
Refusing to bring a person a meal because they do things we think are evil, is missing a chance to witness in love to that person. Too many of us think so worldly it is no wonder we have this standoff. It reminds me of a Dr. Suess book where there was a northbound and a southbound character that ran into each other, and both were too stubborn to move aside so they stood there and glared at each other. They stayed fast while the town was built around it, neither ever making any progress. We can try to check the outward behavior, but the sneakier and more effective way is to win their hearts.
Alan
We have many spiritual weapons that are more powerful than the standard human results of “starve the enemy and flush him out.” Christ said to love the enemy. As far as I know He died for those in the clinic as well, for they know not what they do. Are they not among the least of Christ’s brothers? I’d buy lunch for an abortion worker if they’d sit down and eat with me – I would simply be there and remain silent as possible and allow the spirit to work through our presence.
Yes, I would deliver the pizza with a prayer and a blessing, and maybe even sneak in a sincere (and not condescending) “may God bless you sir/ma’am” as I turned to leave. This will heap burning coals on the enemy, as their hearts will recognize this love and be amazed by it. This can all happen “below the radar” and if we behave in accordance with the fruits of the spirit, there is no law against them and they cannot even know what sort of inroads we are making spiritually because they cannot detect our resistance. This is why the second coming will be like a thief in the night. He won’t fix people by coercion, but by invitation to join in true unconditional love.
Refusing to bring a person a meal because they do things we think are evil, is missing a chance to witness in love to that person. Too many of us think so worldly it is no wonder we have this standoff. It reminds me of a Dr. Suess book where there was a northbound and a southbound character that ran into each other, and both were too stubborn to move aside so they stood there and glared at each other. They stayed fast while the town was built around it, neither ever making any progress. We can try to check the outward behavior, but the sneakier and more effective way is to win their hearts.
Alan
C
Coder
Guest
Seems possible they may think you support abortion and are encouraging them.This will heap burning coals on the enemy,
C
Coder
Guest
It may be different, depending on the how the photo is to be used.…But that’s not the case here…
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
For some reason my reply to this disappeared. I might have just had it on preview.Seems possible they may think you support abortion and are encouraging them.
I will make it shorter this time. I am only suggesting we consider consulting the Word of God on how to treat enemies. It is certainly possible that following the Word may be misinterpreted by those who judge based on outward observations, but that is no reason to abandon His teaching for our own worldly “common sense.”
My suggestion is only that we try handling and enemy God’s way; until we do we never know. If you disagree with the following advice, then that’s OK with me because I did not author it:
Rom 12:
It is easy to fall into the solutions the world gives us, but in faith we can resist going along with everyone else and stand alone if necessary, with Christ, and abide by the sound teachings of the Lord that we wish others would obey as well.16 Have the same regard for one another; do not be haughty but associate with the lowly; do not be wise in your own estimation. 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil; be concerned for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If possible, on your part, live at peace with all. 19 Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for the wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 Rather, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head.” 21 Do not be conquered by evil but conquer evil with good.
Alan
C
Coder
Guest
priestsforlife.org/action/index.htmIf you disagree with the following advice…
Businesses should refuse to service killing centers, and individual workers can refuse to be sent there.
The road is narrow. Not bringing pizza to an abortionist in a country where food is readily available is not the same for example as denying food to a starving enemy in order to have revenge. We are not to harbor anger and hold grudges even to those who have wronged us and we are to seek their good including feeding them in their need. However, I don’t think this teaching encourages us to bring food as a convenience to those whose activity is the destruction of human life. This does not mean we don’t seek the good for these people and we can pray for them.
Considering many Scriptures helps us to discern situations. For example:
Ephesians 5:11-14:
2 Corinthians 6:17-18:Take no part in the fruitless works of darkness; rather expose them, for it is shameful even to mention the things done by them in secret; but everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for everything that becomes visible is light.
Here St. Paul indicates that we can associate with the immoral of this world but “associate” may mean we can speak with them and be kind to them. For example, if you were at a social gathering and there were pro-choice people there, you might be courteous to them. This is not the same as bringing food to an abortion clinic where you are traveling to the place where human life is destroyed and giving them food for their convenience.Therefore, come forth from them and be separate," says the Lord, “and touch nothing unclean; then I will receive you and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”
1 Corinthians 5:7-11:
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people, not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world.
But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person.
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
Sure, this is the path that the group has chosen to take.priestsforlife.org/action/index.htm
Businesses should refuse to service killing centers, and individual workers can refuse to be sent there.
So then the advice on how to handle an enemy as described in Romans does not apply here? We should deny them pizzas for lunch but we’ll give them sustenance if they should be near death, right? What about if we just waiting until they felt weak – kind of like smoking them out with teargas?The road is narrow. Not bringing pizza to an abortionist in a country where food is readily available is not the same for example as denying food to a starving enemy in order to have revenge. We are not to harbor anger and hold grudges even to those who have wronged us and we are to seek their good including feeding them in their need. However, I don’t think this teaching encourages us to bring food as a convenience to those whose activity is the destruction of human life. This does not mean we don’t seek the good for these people and we can pray for them.
The worldly looks at food deliveries as a weapon. Even the godless use economic sanctions against other people to coerce them to change their ways. How do we, as Christians, behave in a way that shows we are different than them?
St. Paul says to show our enemies love, and to feed them.
He who has ears, let him hear.
So basically we are to be kind to them in a “conditional” way as long as we meet them on neutral grounds…Here St. Paul indicates that we can associate with the immoral of this world but “associate” may mean we can speak with them and be kind to them. For example, if you were at a social gathering and there were pro-choice people there, you might be courteous to them. This is not the same as bringing food to an abortion clinic where you are traveling to the place where human life is destroyed and giving them food for their convenience.
It isn’t about facilitating their lifestyle. It’s about taking a chance to show love to an enemy, which is the most powerful way to change his heart. I guess we can put conditions on the Word of God until it only applies when it matches with our preconceived notions we got from the world.
In short, the “behavior modification” techniques that train lab rats are the basis of the law of sin and death, which is not sufficient for development of a human heart until fulfilled by Christ.
When we repay evil for evil, evil fights back and is actually strengthened. If we try to quarantine clinics, evil will enlist the forces of the world to make federal laws protecting them. Christ showed us a better way, but we don’t know that way because we are so busy using worldly solutions, and disregarding those teachings that are inconvenient to our way of thinking.
Interfering in the delivery of a pizza to a clinic is not going to save a single baby, and it will simply give the enemy all the more worldly reason to enlist the forces of law to protect itself. Delivering a pizza with a prayer or a holy water blessing is fighting at the level of spiritual warfare, which is the only way we’re going to make any lasting changes.
We can use our worldly thinking, and scour the Bible for justification, but then we are fighting a worldly battle and we do not have the power of the love of Jesus on our side since we have chosen to pick and choose which situations warrant listening to His teachings of love.
Alan
U
utica
Guest
Thanks again, everyone. This is my first time back on this thread since Monday. It’s wonderful to see how the thread is moving, and I hope it continues on.
I decided to do the job, and completed it today. I based my decision on three things.
First, my understanding that this action would be material cooperation but not formal cooperation.
Second, even though this magazine is a trade publication and, as such, does not do hard news but rather profile pieces on it’s subjects, I was still acting in the capacity of a journalist.
Third, my family really needed this money in order to meet basic needs like food and shelter.
I’m often asked by the subjects on jobs like this one if they could purchase the images for their own use. I decided ahead of time that I would not sell these images to this subject. As it turned out, he even asked if I would take additional images in a different setting for an addition fee. I politely declined.
I also said several Hail Mary’s while setting up for the shot, and asked our Blessed Mother to open the hearts and minds of all those who work in that room, so that they may come to an understanding of the truth of life.
This problem reminded me of something I read in Robert P. George’s book The Clash of Orthodoxies.
“Now, I am not maintaining (nor do I wish to be thought to maintain) that liberal political theorists who abet the culture of death are moral monsters. They are not Nazis or hate mongers. They are our colleagues and very often our friends. Many of them are doing their level best to think through the moral issues at the heart of our cultural struggle and arrive at conclusions that are right and just. They view themselves as partisans of a culture of freedom. In most cases, they carefully and honestly argue for those choices for death whose moral worthiness they proclaim and whose legal permission and constitutional protection they defend. As a matter of reciprocity, it is, in my view, incumbent upon us, as their opponents, to engage them in debate, to answer their arguments, to say why they are wrong. While we must oppose them with resolution and indeed, determination to win, we cannot content ourselves merely to denounce them, as we would rightly denounce the moral monsters who created a different culture of death on the European continent in the 1930s and 1940s” pg.40
I think I made a morally sound decision, but I’m not fully convinced of it yet since I don’t fully understand it. (I will be talking to my confessor about it) I want to study this deeper. I know it is the type of situation that will continue to come up for me.
I look forward to the continuing conversation on this thread.
I decided to do the job, and completed it today. I based my decision on three things.
First, my understanding that this action would be material cooperation but not formal cooperation.
Second, even though this magazine is a trade publication and, as such, does not do hard news but rather profile pieces on it’s subjects, I was still acting in the capacity of a journalist.
Third, my family really needed this money in order to meet basic needs like food and shelter.
I’m often asked by the subjects on jobs like this one if they could purchase the images for their own use. I decided ahead of time that I would not sell these images to this subject. As it turned out, he even asked if I would take additional images in a different setting for an addition fee. I politely declined.
This is exactly the tone I took during the shoot. I maintained a professional attitude and tried to do the best job I could. In the process, I learned some things about him, as I do with anyone I photograph, and indeed it gives me a better idea of what makes a man like this “tick”.If the man has a problem with how he thinks, then why not rub elbows with him, show him some unconditional love, and open your heart to find out what makes him tick? You just might learn something that will help you out in your own pro-life agenda. This is like a chance to infiltrate the “strong man’s house” in a way.
I also said several Hail Mary’s while setting up for the shot, and asked our Blessed Mother to open the hearts and minds of all those who work in that room, so that they may come to an understanding of the truth of life.
This problem reminded me of something I read in Robert P. George’s book The Clash of Orthodoxies.
“Now, I am not maintaining (nor do I wish to be thought to maintain) that liberal political theorists who abet the culture of death are moral monsters. They are not Nazis or hate mongers. They are our colleagues and very often our friends. Many of them are doing their level best to think through the moral issues at the heart of our cultural struggle and arrive at conclusions that are right and just. They view themselves as partisans of a culture of freedom. In most cases, they carefully and honestly argue for those choices for death whose moral worthiness they proclaim and whose legal permission and constitutional protection they defend. As a matter of reciprocity, it is, in my view, incumbent upon us, as their opponents, to engage them in debate, to answer their arguments, to say why they are wrong. While we must oppose them with resolution and indeed, determination to win, we cannot content ourselves merely to denounce them, as we would rightly denounce the moral monsters who created a different culture of death on the European continent in the 1930s and 1940s” pg.40
I think I made a morally sound decision, but I’m not fully convinced of it yet since I don’t fully understand it. (I will be talking to my confessor about it) I want to study this deeper. I know it is the type of situation that will continue to come up for me.
I look forward to the continuing conversation on this thread.
C
Coder
Guest
Professor Germain Grisez refers to unwanted side effects of actions that can indeed be accepted depending on the circumstances.
We live in a society in which the government has legalized the killing of unborm children.
Idea:
You could email the man and inform him that you are pro-life and you could also email the magazine and inform them that you are pro-life. Maybe they could at the very least put a disclaimer that the views on the article do not reperesent those of the producers (or something similar).
Hope helpful.
We live in a society in which the government has legalized the killing of unborm children.
Idea:
You could email the man and inform him that you are pro-life and you could also email the magazine and inform them that you are pro-life. Maybe they could at the very least put a disclaimer that the views on the article do not reperesent those of the producers (or something similar).
Hope helpful.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.