May Laity Question, Critisize, or Complain about our Clergy? Vote and Discuss

[spiritblows]

Is it an act of disobedience to question, critisize, or complain about our priests, bishops and cardinals? Or is this a healthy and natural part of our lives as informed Catholics?

I’m making this a poll for those who don’t want to join the discussion.

 

[Leisa]

I would have to say that complaining about clergy with just cause is okay if done with the proper respect. That being said I do feel too many people (including many from this site) spend entirely too much time nit-picking any little thing they can find to complain about.

God Bless

 

[spiritblows]

Leisa:

I would have to say that complaining about clergy with just cause is okay if done with the proper respect. That being said I do feel too many people (including many from this site) spend entirely too much time nit-picking any little thing they can find to complain about.

God Bless

Hi Leisa,
You make a good point. I think sometimes the internet makes people more brazen and they forget that 100’s of people can read the thoughts that in real life would only have a very small audience.

I’ve heard critisisms of my priest or other priests sometimes that really are harsh. I wonder if people are just more disrespectful these days or if 70 years ago people were the same?

 

[mosher]

We have an obligation to correct error when it is known to us - Even if the Holy Father is in error.

 

[otm]

Leisa:

I would have to say that complaining about clergy with just cause is okay if done with the proper respect. That being said I do feel too many people (including many from this site) spend entirely too much time nit-picking any little thing they can find to complain about.

God Bless

No kidding!

 

[otm]

mosher:

We have an obligation to correct error when it is known to us - Even if the Holy Father is in error.

Right; and the SSPX is absolutely convinced beyone a reasonable doubt that they are correcting the Holy Father of the error of Vatican 2.

 

[mosher]

otm:

Right; and the SSPX is absolutely convinced beyone a reasonable doubt that they are correcting the Holy Father of the error of Vatican 2.

Nuance: They do not reject in whole VII. However, they are concerned with certain difficulties presented by some of the Documents therein. Who knows, in time the Holy See might side with their position on one or many of their concerns. The greater error of the SSPX is their inability to submit to the Holy See while addressing their issues with VII. That, I believe, would be a greater virtue. One should never bring scandal to unity.

 

[Brendan]

otm:

Right; and the SSPX is absolutely convinced beyone a reasonable doubt that they are correcting the Holy Father of the error of Vatican 2.

Generally speaking, the SSPX doesn’t have a problem, per se, with Vatican II, only the fact that there is a bunch of changes made “in the Spirit of Vatican II” that are NOT in the documents.

The founder of the SSPX, Archbishop Lefebvre, was present at the Council and voted FOR 15 or the 16 documents. The only one he did not vote in favor of was* Unitatis Redintegratio * (Decree on Ecumenism) .

All of the others he voted in favor of.

 

[PROUD_2_B_RC]

+JMJ+

I think if it came to this I would talk with the priest outside of the public eye.

God bless you and Mary keep you!

 

[netmilsmom]

spiritblows:

Is it an act of disobedience to question, critisize, or complain about our priests, bishops and cardinals? Or is this a healthy and natural part of our lives as informed Catholics?

I’m making this a poll for those who don’t want to join the discussion.

I feel that it is our right as well as our duty to attempt to correct that which is against church teaching. For too long some of our Bishops have run with their own ideas, disregarding or finding the loophole in the Vatican documents. I feel that the laity has been kept in the dark and basically been told that this is the way it is because of Vatican II. In actuality, Vatican II did nothing as far as we see now.

Because of Mother Angelica, EWTN and the Internet, the world is openning up. We now know that some of the things these men are doing is not correct (think Weakland).

Bishops are not small gods. In the past we were expected to treat them this way and while they are highly educated and intelligent men, that is all they are MEN. Love them, respect them, pray for them but do not give them a free pass.

And understand that this is a discussion forum. That is what we do, discuss. I truly believe that tact and good taste should be used but ignoring that which is fact is counter productive.

 

[Brendan]

I think Redemptionis Sacramentum sums it up nicely

1. Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

 

[Joysong]

Is this a matter about liturgy or sacraments? It seems to be an issue of moral theology under the 8th commandment, which treats of the justice due our neighbor concerning the use of our tongue.

Questioning is valid; reporting problems as Brendan mentioned is valid; complaining to all who will listen - detraction, possibly slander.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Joysong:

Is this a matter about liturgy or sacraments? It seems to be an issue of moral theology under the 8th commandment, which treats of the justice due our neighbor concerning the use of our tongue.

Questioning is valid; reporting problems as Brendan mentioned is valid; complaining to all who will listen - detraction, possibly slander.

Joysong:

I think that if we’re talking about real abuses, and the Priests and Bishops in question aren’t responsive, then taking it to the Pope and making it public, so that light is shined on abusive or sinful behavior, may just be the only way to handle really bad situations.

I was once forced to deal with a parish that was engaged in several liturgical abuses by taking it to the internet. I said nothing that was untrue, and what I did say was very specific. In spite of the fact the parish was in a liberal diocese noted for turning a blind eye to abuses of the liturgy, posting it on the internet forced the patrish to stop the abuses. It worked.

In Christ, Michael

 

[bear06]

From Canon Law:

Can. 212 ß1 Christ’s faithful, conscious of their own responsibility, are bound to show Christian obedience to what the sacred Pastors, who represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith and prescribe as rulers of the Church.

ß2 Christ’s faithful are at liberty to make known their needs, especially their spiritual needs, and their wishes to the Pastors of the Church.

ß3 They have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ’s faithful, but in doing so they must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the Pastors and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals.

In our diocese, we went to the pastors first. After that, we went to the bishop, who pretty much told us we were right wing extremists. Finally, some really creative people in our diocese took all of the evidence of abuse in our diocese, correspondence, video, audio, stills and burned it onto a CD-Rom and sent it off to Rome. Rome decided to correct the abuse and gave us a great bishop.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

bear06:

From Canon Law:

In our diocese, we went to the pastors first. After that, we went to the bishop, who pretty much told us we were right wing extremists. Finally, some really creative people in our diocese took all of the evidence of abuse in our diocese, correspondence, video, audio, stills and burned it onto a CD-Rom and sent it off to Rome. Rome decided to correct the abuse and gave us a great bishop.

Bear06:

Do you still have the info on the person you sent it too? The name and address?

In my situation, I was acting on my own as I was a visitor and was looking for a safe parish to go to Mass at. I couldn’t wait for stuff to go through channels.

However, in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, this procedure or something like it might be the most effective way to deal with this, esp. if we could get a few people to send CD’s to Rome.

Thanks.

In Christ, Michael

 

[bear06]

Traditional Ang:

Bear06:

Do you still have the info on the person you sent it too? The name and address?

In my situation, I was acting on my own as I was a visitor and was looking for a safe parish to go to Mass at. I couldn’t wait for stuff to go through channels.

However, in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, this procedure or something like it might be the most effective way to deal with this, esp. if we could get a few people to send CD’s to Rome.

Thanks.

In Christ, Michael

It was sent to many of the Congregations in Rome and to the Nuncio here in the states. It was the bright, shiny, point and click CD - Rom that made the difference. I think the key is to make sure you just have evidence they can see without added commentary. When they get testimonies, they don’t know who you are. When they see a clown Mass, letters signed by diocesan priests and the bishop, etc. there can be no dispute. The Congregations for Bishops said it was the most helpful thing they’ve received for decision making. Get people to get video and audio recorder, cameras, etc. and begin collecting. It probably wouldn’t take too much time down there and don’t let anyone tell you you can’t tape. I even had one priest tell me that there were Church documents saying that you couldn’t videotape. When I asked him to produce them because I wouldn’t want to disobey the teachings of the Church, he immediately changed the subject.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Bear06,

An excellent method - taking concrete steps rather than simply broadcast the problem indicriminately!

 

[ncjohn]

bear06:

From Canon Law:

In our diocese, we went to the pastors first. After that, we went to the bishop, who pretty much told us we were right wing extremists. Finally, some really creative people in our diocese took all of the evidence of abuse in our diocese, correspondence, video, audio, stills and burned it onto a CD-Rom and sent it off to Rome. Rome decided to correct the abuse and gave us a great bishop.

This is the proper approach, to go through the hierarchy as the quote posted by Brendan from RS indicates.

IMHO, public criticism of the clergy is not only improper, but divisive and hurtful to the Church Christ established. Jesus himself told us to be obedient to those in authority, even if not following their example.

According to the gospels, those who lead God’s children astray will have their own special reckoning with God. We are called to be obedient, while making our concerns known through the chain or command.

If nothing else, publicly posting allegations that have either not been proven, which are personal opinion, or which may damage someone’s reputation at the least border on slander and/or libel, especially when we start seeing words like “dissent” and “heresy”. Keeping in mind James’s clear admonitions about how we use our tongues, it would seem to me that the correct Christian approach is to proceed as RS instructs.

Peace,

 

[katewithak]

Joysong:

Is this a matter about liturgy or sacraments? It seems to be an issue of moral theology under the 8th commandment, which treats of the justice due our neighbor concerning the use of our tongue.

Questioning is valid; reporting problems as Brendan mentioned is valid; complaining to all who will listen - detraction, possibly slander.

Sums it up nicely, yes.

 

[katewithak]

ncjohn:

This is the proper approach, to go through the hierarchy as the quote posted by Brendan from RS indicates.

IMHO, public criticism of the clergy is not only improper, but divisive and hurtful to the Church Christ established. Jesus himself told us to be obedient to those in authority, even if not following their example.

According to the gospels, those who lead God’s children astray will have their own special reckoning with God. We are called to be obedient, while making our concerns known through the chain or command.

If nothing else, publicly posting allegations that have either not been proven, which are personal opinion, or which may damage someone’s reputation at the least border on slander and/or libel, especially when we start seeing words like “dissent” and “heresy”. Keeping in mind James’s clear admonitions about how we use our tongues, it would seem to me that the correct Christian approach is to proceed as RS instructs.

Peace,

Very well said.